Overhead will probably not change. What about essential features?

Discussion in 'Videocards - AMD Radeon Drivers Section' started by PrMinisterGR, Sep 30, 2015.

  1. PrMinisterGR

    PrMinisterGR Ancient Guru

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    Below are the requests, under the Spoiler tag is the original post.

    Let's be a bit more clear about what we're asking. I'll post some things here, and update the main post using your suggestions.

    • Vsync that actually works with all games. At least 1/2, 1/3, 1/4 dividers and support for Dynamic Vsync (which NVIDIA owners have for years).
    • Triple Buffering for DirectX titles, make it enforcable under OpenGL/Vulkan.
    • Frame Limiter that makes things smoother, and is CPU (not GPU) based, with an at least 24-240 range. If they make it properly the range is arbitrary anyway.
    • Flip Queue Size. It was there, then you took it. NVIDIA has it for nearly a decade, it can be a saver in both single and multi-gpu configurations.
    • Properly working and documented Video Encoding/Decoding. It is a shame that there is not a single major streaming app that supports AMD hardware properly. Raptr doesn't count, and it's very problematic.
    • Fix or properly document VSR. Your website still claims that I should be getting 3200*1800 VSR. I don't and nobody else with my GPU does. Either change your documentation, or fix the feature. It is embarrassing.

    These are the completely essential stuff that all GPUs should have. Below is an optional list.

    • SMAA/FXAA post processing Anti-Aliasing support for both DirectX and OpenGL. I would prefer SMAA (or both), but whichever has the better license should be ok. If you implemented strength levels it would be even better.
    • Proper Super Sampling Anti-Aliasing support. The support is very sketchy and even when it works, it gives a very blurry image. Please improve on it, it is important since there is a ton of indie games out there that could benefit greatly from it.
    • Ambient Occlusion. Either HBAO+ or HDAO/SSAO, it doesn't really matter. If the ReSHADE people pulled it off, the driver (with full access to the rendering pipeline) can do it too. It has been a feature of NVIDIA GPUs for years now.

    This is no rant. These are necessary features if you pay 150$-700$ for a piece of hardware.

    Since we got a better dive at the overhead issue and with the arrival of DX12 we got a better look at both architectures, it looks like nothing will change on the overhead situation unless AMD writes a driver that is using their ACEs under DX11. Due to budget and actual hardware/software constraints, I highly doubt that it can happen. What about some essential features though?

    AMD is using the DX spec to enable VSYNC, which means that it can't be forced anywhere. Not only that, but while NVIDIA has Adaptive Vsync, and Normal and Adaptive VSYNC on 1/2 and other dividers, we don't even get forced "normal" VSYNC.

    Triple buffering can be forced through the NVIDIA driver, nothing can be done through the AMD driver. The frame limiter is GPU-based, it causes stuttering and the lowest limit is 55fps making it completely useless. A singe person using that frame limiter, please prove me wrong.

    Meanwhile you have software like RadeonPro, developed by one person without access to the driver, enabling all those features. The excuse of "not enough resources" doesn't really exist. If AMD's people can't do it and yet a lone Brazilian can, then they should fire their driver people. AMD has some great hardware (Tahiti and Hawaii are some real testaments to their hardware designs, going head to head against designs from years after), but on terms of features for gaming they are centuries back. I don't care about mosquito video reduction for video fetishists AMD, these people use madVR anyway. Please, this is so essential that I can't even recommend your hardware to people I know any longer.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2015
  2. Noisiv

    Noisiv Ancient Guru

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    All I know my next monitor will have 144Hz.

    Sick of Vsync issues and having to choose between tearing and responsiveness. It's reallllly getting old.

    Radeon Pro's sync(s) increase CPU usage, and/or love to go single-thread.

    I'd take that FreeSync LG, but 2560x1080 (and especially at 34'') is a no-go.
     
  3. Blackfyre

    Blackfyre Maha Guru

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    PrMinisterGR

    I'm always with you on those points man. AMD really need to improve on all those aspects.
     
  4. BradleyW

    BradleyW Guest

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    I'm glad you are fighting the overhead battle. I've been fighting that war for 7 years, and have been vocal about it on forums (with evidence) for 5 years. Nobody I spoke to would believe me, and accused my evidence as fake. I've even been banned from forums for "making overhead up because there is no such thing".
     

  5. PrMinisterGR

    PrMinisterGR Ancient Guru

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    It almost happened here, but Hilbert is not that kind of person. From the things I have been able to understand as a layman, I don't believe that AMD's architecture can work properly with DX11, unless large amounts of money are thrown in and they do some kind of thing like NVIDIA did with the famous now DX11 driver. AMD doesn't seem to be willing to do that, which is sad (like, really, really sad).

    On the other hand, they could easily close the gap on features (and I don't want to hear any crap on that, what Jon Matauri can do WITHOUT driver access, the AMD engineers can do too).
     
  6. BradleyW

    BradleyW Guest

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    I agree. AMD could have the best UI and feature set if they put a small team of 4 on the job. Or at least they could make their own version of RadeonPro. That would be quicker than messing with thousands of lines of code in the driver. As for their fps limiter, the mouse lag is insane. They should remove the feature immediately.
     
  7. Spartan

    Spartan Guest

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    Yeah, I found it hilarious, when AMD mentioned, they don't want to be the "cheaper brand", but they don't provide the same software as nVidia does, like good dx11 drivers, nVidia Inspector, ShadowPlay, you know, the basic stuff. But YAY, at least we have a really bad dx11 driver, useless CCC, outdated RadeonPro(still working somewhat, but not thanks to AMD) a barely functioning VCE, and of course the GLORIOUS Rapt/Gaming Evolved. Am I missed something?
     
  8. yasamoka

    yasamoka Ancient Guru

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    RadeonPro's sync features do not really increase CPU usage, nor any other equivalent sync option from another software for that matter. All these software do is lock the core in an infinite loop after its work rendering the frame in 1/(refresh rate) is done, making Windows report CPU usage close to 100% on that core. In reality, the core isn't being utilized, although the clock speeds may stay up due to the illusion of a higher workload. Regardless, for gaming, clockspeeds are generally kept stable if I'm not mistaken, as if it were the case otherwise, stutter might occur.
     
  9. PrMinisterGR

    PrMinisterGR Ancient Guru

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    We can come back to the actual technical details, but in the end, RadeonPro's frame limiter is smooth, and AMD's is stuttery and laggy.
     
  10. janos666

    janos666 Ancient Guru

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    Yes! I often find myself reading the tweak guides on geforce.com when I try to figure out the optimal quality settings for a game I just started for the first time. Those articles usually aren't 1:1 applicable to AMD cards but still useful overall. I can usually gather more practically useful information from those guides than from any other random tweak guides which pop up in the google search results.
     

  11. Spartan

    Spartan Guest

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    So true, how could I forget that. When everything else failed, I checked the nVidia guide for gta 5, and since then I was able to stay between 60-40 fps, instead of an average 30 fps.
     
  12. sammarbella

    sammarbella Guest

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    I still don't get why they are so closed minds at AMD in this aspect.

    Hiring John from their close partner Raptr will be good for us as gamers, good for their drivers dep and good for their PR dep.

    Game evolved crapware can stay with his fancy social connectors and gamedvr features if they like.

    Let John add REAL advanced config features to the AMD drivers not the silly FPS limiter we have right now.

    I don't know maybe Raptr is paying millions for John and AMD can't afford it.

    Game evolved is doing so well bundled with AMD driver package.

    LOL
     
  13. yasamoka

    yasamoka Ancient Guru

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    I didn't get into that discussion. I was simply replying to his post. AMD should definitely include those features and implement them properly, however it's only a matter of time before we all forget about VSync and keep it in the dark past, with Adaptive-Sync eventually becoming the standard.

    Most high refresh-rate users have already moved away from these features. I can't recall a time when I felt I had to force VSync + TB on a game that ran at 110FPS without the options being present in the game itself.
     
  14. janos666

    janos666 Ancient Guru

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    I am not the kind of guy who sh|ts into his tinfoil hat easily, but RaptR is pretty much the only software which I accidentally installed (I didn't expect such a thing from a driver package) and got shocked that "I am being spied on" because the screen capturing feature seemed to be turned on by default and it looked like the software is also capable of transmitting that video stream online. It felt like I am already on YouTube. :p I shouted "fock you too AMD!" and deleted the stuff immediately! :infinity:

    Sometime later I installed it willingly and tried to record a video on purpose. It didn't work, so I uninstalled it again. :banana:
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2015
  15. Spartan

    Spartan Guest

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    Same here. I have to do Custom Install and uncheck Gaming Evolved every time I install a driver just because of this crap, otherwise I would do Express Install, and of course it isn't working, since it's using VCE which is pretty much broken(who figures...), especially with 15.7 and up.
     

  16. Noisiv

    Noisiv Ancient Guru

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    If you say so.

    I'll check this later.
     
  17. theoneofgod

    theoneofgod Ancient Guru

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    Some reference here http://forums.guru3d.com/showpost.php?p=4443926&postcount=3
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2015
  18. Skinner

    Skinner Master Guru

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    Good subject, I also said this for years, (last "rant" I put on a forum):


    One thing to notice:

    Also one question, do WDDM2 W10-drivers use more V-ram? Although the 4K perf. and esp. smoothness, is unmatched, another world compared to Win8.1!! (with CF), going a bit higher @ 5K, perf. seems lower then Win8.1 and the kind of behavior (stuttering -> V-ram) let me think there is some short of heavier use of V-ram going on. I really hope they can bring this 5K perf. back in W10, 4K-smoothness is golden though.

    Luckily I play at 4- or 5K, so CPU-overhead is a much less limiting factor (it can occur when CPU is running out of resources in case of to little left for loadbalancing the multi GPU).

    Also it would be nice to have some sort of CF-bits profile sort app., like inspector for setting up different profiles/bits, if this is possible offcourse.
    The games enhanced with inspector with a better Sli bit are still quite big.
    I have to say it's not that bad with supporting CF, just a bit late and less flexible to tweak (only replacing predifined game.exe's, for example "Fear.exe" does wonders in Fallout3/NV enb and Skyrim enb!!!) with the absence of CF-bits like things.

    This hardware deserves so much better support so it can excell like it can.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2015
  19. |ALE|

    |ALE| Guest

    i am an amd "fan" but it seems quite clear that amd won't wins her battle for the leadership.

    every time an "epic fail" hardware or software or absolutely bad choice (marketing, features not supported or implemented).

    for not going too much back in time...

    - reference cooler on 290x... a great card definend "a nuclear stastion" because of power requiring and heat. Custom 290x are much better but the first reviews are the most important... frequencies throttling for high temps on 290x reference

    - missing feature on drivers... driver list, multhithreading for cpu, much more options founded on a 3rd party tool from ONE guy like radeonpro... i think "WHY AMD does not implement thease features??" BOH

    - black screen on 290x due to a very low voltage on chip...

    - furyx pump issues, furyx 4gb only vram

    - presentation of furyx, lisa su dressed like a man, no emotion, no suspence, no products presented like people wants... the nvidia's ceo with tatoo, "tress fx" hair, great impact.... mah

    and many other and other fail... amd can't do a fail because it is AMD not nvidia that has a great marketing and a big fan boy platea...
     
  20. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Guest

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    I am not even sure what this post is supposed to be about, but I am sure that it is based on your sole 290x experience. (which apparently was not good)
    Anything what in your post does not touch 290x is wrong, including your understanding of vram.
    Masses like Huang and his presentations, he is salesman and entertainer. Lisa Su is engineer, unless you have some respect in you for person as entity (and respect their choices/style), you are never going to like them.
    And that says something about average discrete GPU owner, but it is not new information in any way... just reminder.
     

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