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The curse of those terrible 3's.
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SerotoNiN
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Default The curse of those terrible 3's. - 03-10-2014, 17:53 | posts: 1,041 | Location: Chicago

I've been reading all the flack about Xbox One and how it's under selling. How the hardware is underperforming, the interface not nearly as good as the 360's and an abysmal 2014 as far as software is concerned and exclusives (Halo 5 is rumored to have been pushed into 2015).

I own a xbone, I like it. Actually, I own a ps4 and an xbone and I very rarely touch the ps4. I played killzone and it has collected dust since. I have nothing against it, just for my personal tastes, until Infamous, I have 0 reason or interest in turning on the ps4.

Now having said that, yes, the xbox one had a lot of issues. Ryse, Killer Instinct and tomorrow TitanFall keep me staying positive.

But I got to thinking....what's with big console companies and their 3rd console always bombing or at least, pushing the company from being # 1.

It started with Nintendo. Now many of you that were younger will remember Nintendo 64 as one of the greatest systems ever, but realistically, it was a flop. Nintendo lost to Sony Playstation with the n64 and for the first time Nintendo was not the #1 company. Companies like Square abandon Nintendo during the n64 days because of Nintendo's persistence to stick with cartridges.

So, Nintendo's 3rd console, after ruling the world with nes and snes, fell to #2 with n64. During this period they lost tons of 3rd party support that they STILL have failed to win back.

Now look at Sega. Master System, Genesis, Saturn. Sega's 3rd system (which I actually loved) Saturn, was a commercial failure, it was behind psone and n64 and never lived up to the hype.

Sony. After becoming the popular company with the success of psone followed by ps2, the ps3 failed to keep them at the top. It was a year late, ridiculously expensive and took quite a while to build a library and online capabilities that were similiar to the 360's.

So now comes Microsoft. Xbox, Xbox 360 and now...Xbox One, which is being setup to be #2 and lose it's #1 spot globally.

Kind of interesting. Even if not a complete failure, every companies 3rd system caused them to lose their #1 dominance of the market. And for some, like Sega, it was a nail in the coffin and for Nintendo, a wake up call they never woke up to as far as keeping 3rd party support.

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Default 03-10-2014, 19:10 | posts: 14,812 | Location: Glasgow

I agree, it does seem to be be working like that.

Personally i think there is a fair amount of arrogance and laziness that comes with having a very successful product.
So much so that when it comes to updating it, the company maybe doesn't try as hard, or their ego let them go in a risky new direction that they are convinced won't fail.

Sticking with cartridges was a bad idea with the N64, but i think it was just Sony's third party support and Nintendo and Sega's lack of that made it tough for those two.

Sony got arrogant with the PS3, sure i remember a comment made by them that it didn't matter how late or expensive the PS3 was, as people would wait and just save up more money.
They also made a risky decision to use awkward hardware and make people pay for a BD drive whether they wanted one or not.

MS have now made the same mistakes as Sony, pricing it too high, making it more awkward to develop for, and also assuming everyone wants to pay extra or sacrifice raw power for things like Kinect and multimedia stuff.
   
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Default 03-10-2014, 20:16 | posts: 7,717

With that said, the PS3 is currently out selling the Xbox One and the 360, a lot can happen over the course of a consoles lifespan. Microsoft needs to drop prices though, not to mention the bundled Kinect. The fact is the PS4 is a more powerful console for less money, I honestly do not know a single person who gives a damn about the media functions of the Xbox One, or Kinect for that matter. I'm sure there are people, but I'd wager they're in the minority. People want a games machine, and for primarily console gamers multiplats so far have been superior on the PS4, and look like they will be in the future. We're not going to see any changes until big name exclusives come out for Xbone coupled with an acceptable hardware price, and frankly there's not a lot in sight at the moment.
   
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Default 03-10-2014, 20:44 | posts: 3,962 | Location: Finland

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkest View Post
With that said, the PS3 is currently out selling the Xbox One and the 360, a lot can happen over the course of a consoles lifespan. Microsoft needs to drop prices though, not to mention the bundled Kinect. The fact is the PS4 is a more powerful console for less money, I honestly do not know a single person who gives a damn about the media functions of the Xbox One, or Kinect for that matter. I'm sure there are people, but I'd wager they're in the minority. People want a games machine, and for primarily console gamers multiplats so far have been superior on the PS4, and look like they will be in the future. We're not going to see any changes until big name exclusives come out for Xbone coupled with an acceptable hardware price, and frankly there's not a lot in sight at the moment.
ps3 is hardly outselling X1 or 360. Only reason it went past 360 was japan cause 9 million vs 1 million is just given.

But really ps3 didn't fail and while 360 was never number 1 (it was the wii). So no idea really, ps4 has a good start now. I'm sad that Wii U isn't selling it's an awesome console
   
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Default 03-11-2014, 07:36 | posts: 7,329 | Location: Sunny Scotland

nice post, OP.
   
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Default 03-11-2014, 20:16 | posts: 1,041 | Location: Chicago

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redemption80 View Post
I agree, it does seem to be be working like that.

Personally i think there is a fair amount of arrogance and laziness that comes with having a very successful product.
So much so that when it comes to updating it, the company maybe doesn't try as hard, or their ego let them go in a risky new direction that they are convinced won't fail.

Sticking with cartridges was a bad idea with the N64, but i think it was just Sony's third party support and Nintendo and Sega's lack of that made it tough for those two.

Sony got arrogant with the PS3, sure i remember a comment made by them that it didn't matter how late or expensive the PS3 was, as people would wait and just save up more money.
They also made a risky decision to use awkward hardware and make people pay for a BD drive whether they wanted one or not.

MS have now made the same mistakes as Sony, pricing it too high, making it more awkward to develop for, and also assuming everyone wants to pay extra or sacrifice raw power for things like Kinect and multimedia stuff.
It's ironic how none of these companies seem to learn from the past. I agree, cockiness seems to get in the way of a smooth 3rd machine.

Heck, I think Nintendo got a bit cocky with the Wii and didn't do much as far is innovation with the Wii U and figured the name and brand would sell itself.
   
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Default 03-12-2014, 06:05 | posts: 1,213 | Location: UK

Microsoft are not a hardware manufacturer, Sony is.

That's the "thing".

Last time, Sony were late and had coding complexity - but still managed to succeed over time.

Microsoft were first and had hardware defects.

This time, we all know what's gonna happen - Microsoft will not back down with the integrated NSA camera listening and watching you, and Sony will prove they dropped the ball last time (but not on hardware) and retake the lead.

You gotta remember, Microsoft being in the console market is a mistake by a combination Of Sega and Nintendo dropping the ball on two seperate occasions - but chiefly Sega messing up with the dreamcast - if that didn't happen, the xbox would not have been released.
   
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Default 03-12-2014, 13:01 | posts: 7,717

I'm not entirely sure it's fair to say Sega messed up with the Dreamcast. It was a fantastic system, I think it's more likely that the system failed to sell because they messed up with the plethora of add on devices for the Genesis/Mega Drive and then the Saturn. People lost faith in them because they kept tossing out new devices with poor support, in quick succession. They didn't appear to be stable. Nobody wants to invest sums of money in something that's going to be replaced as early, especially not parents buying for their kids.
   
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Default 03-12-2014, 14:11 | posts: 14,812 | Location: Glasgow

I don't think Sega messed up with the Dreamcast either, as mentioned the damage was done beforehand.

Technically the only reason the Playstation was released was down to a failed deal with Nintendo.

As for the Xbox I thought MS backed down ages with the Kinect camera?
   
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Default 03-12-2014, 23:47 | posts: 3,409 | Location: USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redemption80 View Post
I don't think Sega messed up with the Dreamcast either, as mentioned the damage was done beforehand.

Technically the only reason the Playstation was released was down to a failed deal with Nintendo.

As for the Xbox I thought MS backed down ages with the Kinect camera?
That is right Nintendo gave birth to PS brand when they reneged on there CD addon deal they had with Nintendo so Sony turned it into console. With out Nintendo doing that we probably wouldn't of had PS brand.

as for MS well MS consoles can rot for all i care I refuse to touch any hw MS had any hand in making, Cause they all had failure issue
   
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Default 03-13-2014, 00:19 | posts: 14,812 | Location: Glasgow

Yep, in a way i'm glad it never happened as the original PS is still one of my favourite consoles.

As for MS consoles, never had an issue with any of them, still using my original 360, but on my second PS3, that might be down to the fact the 360 got alot less use though.
PS4 looks alot more likely to have failure issues this time round due to it being more powerful, but in a smaller case, but i've yet to hear of either having any significant issues.
   
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Default 03-13-2014, 00:53 | posts: 3,409 | Location: USA

had 3 360 all of then suffered the RROD it it was used way less then my ps3 All in open so they all got plenty of air. and my original fat ps3 only failed just last year. 5+ years later and that was due to the thermal paste being completely gone

besides I knew MS hardware failed long before the xbox was a glimmer in there eyes.

I went threw 1 MS intellimouse every 8 month cause the cable they used was peices **** so it would stop working. did about 6 years of free replacements from MS before I said **** it no more, switched to logitech and never looked back MS HW was never great to being with in my eyes 360 sealed there fate as far as i concerned
   
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Default 03-13-2014, 05:41 | posts: 1,903 | Location: AZ

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I don't think Sega messed up with the Dreamcast
I agree 110%. The Dreamcast was an amazing unit.... Past mistakes left a bad taste. Its so unfortunate though as it was and always shall be a piece of hardware that was leaps and bounds ahead of its time. R.I.P.
   
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Default 03-19-2014, 21:31 | posts: 1,041 | Location: Chicago

Well after reading some posts I have some notes to hit on.

* I had two 360's rrod on me.

* I feel Sega Saturn was way ahead of it's time, the online functionality it had for 1995 was unheard of for a console. It had some nice hidden gems too.

* Dreamcast was also just an extension of Saturn as far as being ahead of it's time. The online capabilities there were much better than even PS2 had. Dreamcast though, in hindsight, didn't have that *blockbuster* to keep it going. It had tons of sleeper hits (Shenmue) and commercial success (Sonic Adventure), but nothing that stood out like Mario or Crash Bandicoot, the RPG's were overshadowed by the Final Fantasy craze at the time, etc. It's still one of my favorite systems, but I'll actually place Saturn ahead of it for my personal preferences.

I never understood the original xbox's success. It has slightly superior graphics than gamecube/ps2/dreamcast but other than Halo, there were no big exclusives. I used to call the original xbox my Halo tv adapter.

* I forgot all about Nintendo backing out of their deal with Sony and Playstation being born. Whoever backed out of that has probably been blackballed from the industry. lol. That has to be the biggest mistake in the history of gaming companies. Not only did backing off get Sony on the map, but Nintendo sticking with cartridges pushed away all the big name developers.
   
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Default 03-19-2014, 23:52 | posts: 14,812 | Location: Glasgow

The original Xbox wasn't really that successful though, it just done well against the PlayStation unlike everyone before them.
The graphics were quite a bit better than the PS2 through, Chaos Theory was a near enough a different game, and it did get Half Life 2, and a fair few MS exclusives that are still around today.

Yeah, I wonder what state Sony and Nintendo might be in today if Nintendo had went through with it.
   
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Default 03-20-2014, 00:05 | posts: 5,847 | Location: Wolverhampton/United Kingdom

Kind of funny seen as globally the PS3 beat the 360 in total sales figures.

So yes the PS3 got off to a rough start but in the end it still won the race.
   
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Default 03-20-2014, 00:16 | posts: 14,812 | Location: Glasgow

Are they both not about the same though?

Last I heard the 360 hit 80million in October, while the PS3 hit that figure in November.
   
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Default 03-20-2014, 13:00 | posts: 1,213 | Location: UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by SerotoNiN View Post
Well after reading some posts I have some notes to hit on.

* I had two 360's rrod on me.

* I feel Sega Saturn was way ahead of it's time, the online functionality it had for 1995 was unheard of for a console. It had some nice hidden gems too.

* Dreamcast was also just an extension of Saturn as far as being ahead of it's time. The online capabilities there were much better than even PS2 had. Dreamcast though, in hindsight, didn't have that *blockbuster* to keep it going. It had tons of sleeper hits (Shenmue) and commercial success (Sonic Adventure), but nothing that stood out like Mario or Crash Bandicoot, the RPG's were overshadowed by the Final Fantasy craze at the time, etc. It's still one of my favorite systems, but I'll actually place Saturn ahead of it for my personal preferences.

I never understood the original xbox's success. It has slightly superior graphics than gamecube/ps2/dreamcast but other than Halo, there were no big exclusives. I used to call the original xbox my Halo tv adapter.

* I forgot all about Nintendo backing out of their deal with Sony and Playstation being born. Whoever backed out of that has probably been blackballed from the industry. lol. That has to be the biggest mistake in the history of gaming companies. Not only did backing off get Sony on the map, but Nintendo sticking with cartridges pushed away all the big name developers.
Line by line.

*never owned a 360 - was too into PC's by this point for gaming. HL2 and CS did it.

*Sega believed they had that generation all to themselves as Nintendo was lagging behind in their own Nintendo bubble. The internals originally did not have 3D capability, and they literally had to bolt on additional chips for it to have 3D. Reason: Playstation dedicated hw for 3D. Sega basically thought they would just need to have super super 2D tech to have that round sewn up, including some of their superscaler tech from the arcades (remember Afterburner?) for textures.

They were wrong. The Sega saturn was behind the times. Woefully.

*Dreamcast was released too early comparatively and was essentially an attempt to gain the lost ground on Sony by ditching the saturn and releasing something ahead of PS2. They killed off their own market and followers within 2 short cycles because of this. Not as powerful as the PS2 and released too soon after the saturn.

Nintendo continue to frack up, whether that's installed base or GPU power or 3rd party games or w/e else we can muster.

I currently own:

N64
Dreamcast + 2 (official) arcade sticks
PS3
Original Gameboy

All for sale, btw
   
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Default 03-20-2014, 13:29 | posts: 5,847 | Location: Wolverhampton/United Kingdom

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkest View Post
I'm not entirely sure it's fair to say Sega messed up with the Dreamcast. It was a fantastic system, I think it's more likely that the system failed to sell because they messed up with the plethora of add on devices for the Genesis/Mega Drive and then the Saturn. People lost faith in them because they kept tossing out new devices with poor support, in quick succession. They didn't appear to be stable. Nobody wants to invest sums of money in something that's going to be replaced as early, especially not parents buying for their kids.
Whilst I did like the Dreamcast and yes SEGA did its own damage with the ridulous addons for their consoles such as 32X, SEGA CD, etc.

However, they REALLY dropped the ball with the Dreamcast. The system was so early to the party and was so advanced compared to the other weaker systems that already had a very large install base and that the Saturn had done extremely poorly previous third party support and even first party was not very good and all the console got was upscaled ports of PS1 and N64 games.

SEGA also wasted far too much money on game development, with Shenmue costing over 20 million dollars which was unheard of back then for any game yet the game was a success with the critics it was not the system seller in the west SEGA thought it was going to be.

They also, and this part is crucial, made a MASSIVE mistake which I believe ultimately brought the console and the company down to its knees was that they did not include any DRM into the console. You could copy a Dreamcast disc to an .iso file and then burn that to a another disc and the copy would just work without any modding to the console whatsoever. Believe me when I say this I never owned a DC at the time it was relevant but a lot of my friends did and they ALL had CD/DVD cases (the sleeved 200+ zip cases) full with DC games. Go to any carboot sale in the UK at the time and you were bound to pick up copied games for as little as a 5.

This led to third party support being literally dropped by almost everyone, Microsoft who supported the console and even supplied SEGA with Windows NT 2000 to be used in the system they abandoned it also. In the end SEGA just did not have enough money left.

Then the PS2 came along and Sony dominated the market until the Wii was released.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redemption80 View Post
Are they both not about the same though?

Last I heard the 360 hit 80million in October, while the PS3 hit that figure in November.


Sure it is only 1% in front with 1 million units sold more.

Still factor in that Microsoft had the RROD which happened to literally everyone I know including my self (a friend of mine has had FIVE 360's). Factoring that in the rest of the world I would "ESTIMATE" that you could easily take off 5 million units from that Xbox 360 figure and I still think that is being conservative.

The Wii won by a landslide in terms of pure numbers by a long long shot in both handhelds and consoles. But between 360 and PS3, Sony won.
   
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Default 03-20-2014, 14:47 | posts: 3,962 | Location: Finland

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Originally Posted by CPC_RedDawn View Post
Whilst I did like the Dreamcast and yes SEGA did its own damage with the ridulous addons for their consoles such as 32X, SEGA CD, etc.

However, they REALLY dropped the ball with the Dreamcast. The system was so early to the party and was so advanced compared to the other weaker systems that already had a very large install base and that the Saturn had done extremely poorly previous third party support and even first party was not very good and all the console got was upscaled ports of PS1 and N64 games.

SEGA also wasted far too much money on game development, with Shenmue costing over 20 million dollars which was unheard of back then for any game yet the game was a success with the critics it was not the system seller in the west SEGA thought it was going to be.

They also, and this part is crucial, made a MASSIVE mistake which I believe ultimately brought the console and the company down to its knees was that they did not include any DRM into the console. You could copy a Dreamcast disc to an .iso file and then burn that to a another disc and the copy would just work without any modding to the console whatsoever. Believe me when I say this I never owned a DC at the time it was relevant but a lot of my friends did and they ALL had CD/DVD cases (the sleeved 200+ zip cases) full with DC games. Go to any carboot sale in the UK at the time and you were bound to pick up copied games for as little as a 5.

This led to third party support being literally dropped by almost everyone, Microsoft who supported the console and even supplied SEGA with Windows NT 2000 to be used in the system they abandoned it also. In the end SEGA just did not have enough money left.

Then the PS2 came along and Sony dominated the market until the Wii was released.





Sure it is only 1% in front with 1 million units sold more.

Still factor in that Microsoft had the RROD which happened to literally everyone I know including my self (a friend of mine has had FIVE 360's). Factoring that in the rest of the world I would "ESTIMATE" that you could easily take off 5 million units from that Xbox 360 figure and I still think that is being conservative.

The Wii won by a landslide in terms of pure numbers by a long long shot in both handhelds and consoles. But between 360 and PS3, Sony won.
Yes Sony won cause microsoft will never sell in japan that is a fact
It seems microsoft will double the countries come september until that they are stuck to some 13 that is just wth while ps4 is being sold in what 48 or something like that.

I was like haha being proud releasing system year later in 26 more countries pfft.

those 35 countries matter in grand scheme of things.

Last edited by Ryu5uzaku; 03-20-2014 at 15:03.
   
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