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DirectX 12
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trocio2
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Exclamation DirectX 12 - 03-06-2014, 23:35 | posts: 375

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/directx/p/directx12.aspx

You can see the AMD logo in the webpage. What will happen with Mantle? I don't know. Will AMD take a lot of cards out from support after dx12 comes out? I'm not sure. Discuss.
   
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Default 03-06-2014, 23:40 | posts: 135 | Location: Halifax

Mantle is here now, DirectX 12 doesn't have a release date.

M$ will probably require Windows 8 or 9 for it to work.

As for low-level Mantle vs DirectX 12 performance, that remains to be seen.

I hope it fails to be honest and Mantle/OpenGL takes over along with SteamOS.
   
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-Tj-
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Default 03-06-2014, 23:49 | posts: 6,958 | Location: Urban`Jungle

lol Apparently its finished and will be released on March 20th, 1 day before that show ends

Just around the time when windows 8.1 gets update 1 (April 7th)


Quote:
The Game Developers Conference kicks off on March 17th and winds down on March 21st, but Microsoft is clear that it wants to launch its new API on the 20th, the day before the last day of the show.

Microsoft has listed AMD Radeon graphics, Intel, Nvidia and Qualcomm Snapdragon as its earliest adopters. Since Qualcomm became very aggressive in the graphics space and the new Adreno 420 is already a GPU packed with many modern graphics features, we believe that they will stay on course where they can compete with the big graphics boys, at least in the low power area.

We would not be surprised to see AMD and Nvidia DirectX 12 hardware very soon, and if we had to guess, there has to be a demo chip in order to show the DirectX 12 features with cards shipping this year.

You can find the official GDC 2014 invitation here.
http://www.fudzilla.com/home/item/34...ced-march-20th
   
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Default 03-07-2014, 00:06 | posts: 16,136 | Location: US East Coast

SteamOS will take years to gain any traction. Linux is still an unknown to the vast majority of users. Until Linux gains real traction in the consumer market, most game devs will avoid it. SteamOS will have a very hard time changing that because most users are going to pick the OS/platform that they're most familiar with. That gives Windows, XBox, PlayStation and Nintendo a huge advantage over Linux, SteamOS and Steamboxes

As for DirectX and Mantle. Ultimately it will be NVidia that decides which succeeds. AMD won't have a choice but to support DirectX 12, Mantle and OpenGL. NVidia, on the other hand, only has to support DirectX 12 and OpenGL. Without NVidia, Mantle will eventually fizzle and die if MS actually comes through with the promises for DirectX.....if it doesn't die purely from devs losing interest.

Sure, DirectX 12 is going to be part of Windows9 but there's no guarantee for Windows8.1 getting support. The next "update" for Win8.1 is supposedly scheduled for release on March 8. People want to bitch and whine about it, but MS is a business and they're out to make money. They don't make money by porting new "tech" to old operating systems.


   
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trocio2
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Default 03-07-2014, 00:14 | posts: 375

Quote:
Originally Posted by sykozis View Post
SteamOS will take years to gain any traction. Linux is still an unknown to the vast majority of users. Until Linux gains real traction in the consumer market, most game devs will avoid it. SteamOS will have a very hard time changing that because most users are going to pick the OS/platform that they're most familiar with. That gives Windows, XBox, PlayStation and Nintendo a huge advantage over Linux, SteamOS and Steamboxes

As for DirectX and Mantle. Ultimately it will be NVidia that decides which succeeds. AMD won't have a choice but to support DirectX 12, Mantle and OpenGL. NVidia, on the other hand, only has to support DirectX 12 and OpenGL. Without NVidia, Mantle will eventually fizzle and die if MS actually comes through with the promises for DirectX.....if it doesn't die purely from devs losing interest.

Sure, DirectX 12 is going to be part of Windows9 but there's no guarantee for Windows8.1 getting support. The next "update" for Win8.1 is supposedly scheduled for release on March 8. People want to bitch and whine about it, but MS is a business and they're out to make money. They don't make money by porting new "tech" to old operating systems.
Interesting..
   
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-Tj-
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Default 03-07-2014, 00:26 | posts: 6,958 | Location: Urban`Jungle

I googled Windows 8.1 update1 release date and one site mentioned April 7th.
   
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Default 03-07-2014, 00:31 | posts: 5,478 | Location: PA, USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by sykozis View Post
SteamOS will take years to gain any traction. Linux is still an unknown to the vast majority of users. Until Linux gains real traction in the consumer market, most game devs will avoid it. SteamOS will have a very hard time changing that because most users are going to pick the OS/platform that they're most familiar with. That gives Windows, XBox, PlayStation and Nintendo a huge advantage over Linux, SteamOS and Steamboxes

As for DirectX and Mantle. Ultimately it will be NVidia that decides which succeeds. AMD won't have a choice but to support DirectX 12, Mantle and OpenGL. NVidia, on the other hand, only has to support DirectX 12 and OpenGL. Without NVidia, Mantle will eventually fizzle and die if MS actually comes through with the promises for DirectX.....if it doesn't die purely from devs losing interest.

Sure, DirectX 12 is going to be part of Windows9 but there's no guarantee for Windows8.1 getting support. The next "update" for Win8.1 is supposedly scheduled for release on March 8. People want to bitch and whine about it, but MS is a business and they're out to make money. They don't make money by porting new "tech" to old operating systems.
I have a feeling Nvidia will only support Mantle if at all, when they have to. They will probably go all out with DX12. Nvidia could contribute to Mantle though who knows. It all boils down to what developers want honestly.
   
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Default 03-07-2014, 00:32 | posts: 4,635 | Location: Washington DC

If its done and ready I'm going to be upset. I just bought this damn GTX770. But it will probably be 2 years before any worthwhile games use DX12 anyway.
   
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Default 03-07-2014, 01:34 | posts: 14,703 | Location: Glasgow

True, everytime i think i will take a chance and buy a new card a new bit of news arrives that makes me hold off.

Hopefully after this announcement there will be more clarity, and i wont have to worry about upgrading to them find out newer games will not be looking/running their best.
   
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Default 03-07-2014, 01:53 | posts: 16,136 | Location: US East Coast

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Tj- View Post
I googled Windows 8.1 update1 release date and one site mentioned April 7th.
Yeah, I got too much going on. It's supposed to be "patch tuesday" in April, not March. Thinking I need to start re-reading my posts better before submitting. Thanks for correcting me though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostXL View Post
I have a feeling Nvidia will only support Mantle if at all, when they have to. They will probably go all out with DX12. Nvidia could contribute to Mantle though who knows. It all boils down to what developers want honestly.
Developers are going to stick with whatever has the greatest level of support. If NVidia doesn't support Mantle, then DirectX 12 will win. Studios will either have to support both DirectX and Mantle, side by side.....or drop Mantle altogether. They certainly aren't going to risk the financial losses and backlash from gamers for dropping DirectX support.


   
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Default 03-07-2014, 02:04 | posts: 8,740 | Location: Indiana

Mantle is a stop gap, to make their CPU's run more like the i5's in games or some such. Apparantly AMD has no real plans to compete mantle, using it due to the fact that OpenGL isn't taking hold and DX12 is MS's attempt to compete with OpenGL and it's extensions as possible threats arise with SteamOS.
It's all about variety of platforms and low level access and MS wants/needs both...so I read anyway.
   
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Default 03-07-2014, 02:06 | posts: 5,830 | Location: 127.0.0.1

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Tj- View Post
I googled Windows 8.1 update1 release date and one site mentioned April 7th.
It leaked earlier tonight in the form of 4 x MSU updates, installed it, feels a little faster, couple of UI changes for Metro / Apps on taskbar

Not much to write home about
   
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Default 03-07-2014, 02:39 | posts: 1,933

Quote:
Originally Posted by sykozis View Post
SteamOS will take years to gain any traction. Linux is still an unknown to the vast majority of users. Until Linux gains real traction in the consumer market, most game devs will avoid it. SteamOS will have a very hard time changing that because most users are going to pick the OS/platform that they're most familiar with. That gives Windows, XBox, PlayStation and Nintendo a huge advantage over Linux, SteamOS and Steamboxes
Honestly Android has a better chance of bringing games to OpenGL at the rate they're going instead of SteamOS.
   
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Default 03-07-2014, 04:11 | posts: 1,414 | Location: Laval (Qc) , Canada

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow_craft View Post
Mantle is here now, DirectX 12 doesn't have a release date.

M$ will probably require Windows 8 or 9 for it to work.

As for low-level Mantle vs DirectX 12 performance, that remains to be seen.

I hope it fails to be honest and Mantle/OpenGL takes over along with SteamOS.
To the contrary, I hope it is a huge success. I prefer standard vs fragmentation.
DirectX is already well known and if they can make it better, then in my book, it is good.

What I truly hope is that they are able to even maybe optimize the current DX11.x implementation so that we may maybe see all a free performance boost.

For those who hate Win8.1 than just wait for Win 9 (its not that far away and will refocus more on desktop usage)

Last edited by Wagnard; 03-07-2014 at 04:16.
   
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Default 03-07-2014, 04:34 | posts: 43 | Location: Russia

I think that DirectX 12 is something about marketing.

It will require Win9. There will not be games with DirectX 12 support, because new consoles have DirectX 11 chips and all games are developing for consoles first of all.

And mantle is great, because it works for Win7 (i mean - i really hope it will work for my video in battlefield with next drivers =)) and i can use all my videocard powers without Win 8/8.1/9.

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Default 03-07-2014, 05:59 | posts: 1,319 | Location: EU, CZ, Brno

I got a good laugh when I read M$ bravely introducing DX12 as many had believed they'll pop in DX11.2/3 extensions or even revamp DX11 internals to be more optimized.

Well, GCN is likely to support whatever M$ comes with as it's quite universal architecture.
What matters is, how well will DX12 do vs Mantle.

DX12 is not actually saving M$, it is saving nVidia's high end of next generation as thsose cards are likely to be powerful enough that any current CPU on DX11 will be huge bottleneck at 1080/1600p which will still be standard for few years.
   
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Default 03-07-2014, 06:56 | posts: 1,428 | Location: Japan, Soka

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox2232 View Post
DX12 is not actually saving M$, it is saving nVidia's high end of next generation as thsose cards are likely to be powerful enough that any current CPU on DX11 will be huge bottleneck at 1080/1600p which will still be standard for few years.
Shouldn't it be the opposite? I am pretty sure GPU will suffer more than CPU as resolution goes up. Yes there will be more API calls, but it shouldn't cause CPU to bottleneck. (unless we talking low end CPUs, which already bottlenecks)


   
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Default 03-07-2014, 08:30 | posts: 1,319 | Location: EU, CZ, Brno

Quote:
Originally Posted by sverek View Post
Shouldn't it be the opposite? I am pretty sure GPU will suffer more than CPU as resolution goes up. Yes there will be more API calls, but it shouldn't cause CPU to bottleneck. (unless we talking low end CPUs, which already bottlenecks)
1080p is standard resolution today, up to 1600p will be standard for few years from now.
2160p is high resolution. And it's market penetration is likely to be good in 3 years as prices are not that bad already.

On 1080p very strong GPU can pull 300fps in some games as they are not that GPU demanding. But CPU will usually allow you to get only 80-90fps.
At 1600p Such top end GPU may still pull 150 fps, but it will still be limited by CPU capable to do 80-90. On 2160p such CPU would be just enough as GPU would be capable to do around 80fps.

For today standard 1080p, where you may want to play at 120/144Hz CPU is real bottleneck as GPU is not allowed to be used 100% even if you take details to low on some games.

If you do not understand or agree with 120/144Hz gaming, then divide all numbers by two and imagine that it's game which simply have more elements on screen requiring twice as many draw calls.
Then you would get 1080p paired w/ GPU capable to do 150fps, but CPU not giving it information to render more than 40-45fps.

nVidia is bringing potentially very power efficient GPU (maxwell), with great rendering capabilities, which is likely to be wasteful with 1080p screens and CPUs without OC (that is only reason why I OC my CPU, as without OC it's just OK for 60-80fps gaming).
   
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DirectX/OpenGL Claiming to have solved CPU Overhead – If True, Mantle is Dead On...
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Default DirectX/OpenGL Claiming to have solved CPU Overhead – If True, Mantle is Dead On... - 03-07-2014, 16:53 | posts: 8,706 | Location: UK

Arrival

Quote:
[Editorial] The Game Developers Conference is coming up and both DirectX and OpenGL have queued up some very very interesting reveals. These reveals, as you might have guessed are both dedicated at showing their respective solution to CPU Rendering Overhead and Low Level Access (Microsoft Only). If their claims have any weight what so ever, it wold effectively make Mantle Dead on Arrival.
Quote:
Microsoft and Nvidia Queue Solutions to CPU Overhead and Low Level Access on GDC’14 – Mantle could be Dead on Arrival

As you probably already know, Mantle Low Level API improves the performance ingame by reducing the CPU Overhead and allowing more draw calls to be submitted to the GPU in a certain time frame. Basically it massively reduces load on the CPU, greatly helping CPU-Bound situations and Weak-CPU configurations. And of course as the name suggests, gives better access to Hardware. Now it seems that other developers have felt greatly threatened by the same because both DirectX and OpenGL are claiming to have solutions to CPU Overhead and improved Low Level Access. If this is true, then Mantle API would loose its edge entirely because Devs will not risk adapting a new API without major incentive. Here are the scheduled addresses for GDC’14:
Quote:
Direct3D Futures (Presented by Microsoft)

“..discuss future improvements in Direct3D that will allow developers an unprecedented level of hardware control and reduced CPU rendering overhead across a broad ecosystem of hardware. “

DirectX: Evolving Microsoft’s Graphics Platform (Presented by Microsoft)

“You asked us to bring you even closer to the metal and to do so on an unparalleled assortment of hardware. You also asked us for better tools so that you can squeeze every last drop of performance out of your PC, tablet, phone and console.”

Approaching Zero Driver Overhead in OpenGL (Presented by NVIDIA)

“…present high-level concepts available in today’s OpenGL implementations that radically reduce driver overhead–by up to 10x or more. The techniques presented will apply to all major vendors and are suitable for use across multiple platforms.”
Quote:
Here is what Mantle API’s main features do:

Low Level Access to the Hardware
More Drawcalls (x9)
New Rendering Techniques
Leveraging Optimization from Next Gen Game Consoles

Now Microsoft is addressing both the Low Level Access issue and the CPU Overhead issue. OpenGL is only adressing the CPU (and Driver) Overhead Issue. Problem is, if these claims are even slightly true then developers lose a lot of incentive to switch to Mantle. DirectX is already established, and if a new patch, and a little elbow grease can give you the same result as Mantle then they wont adapt a completely different API. Heck, OpenGL performs more stably than DirectX on many occasions yet Devs haven’t adopted that. Ofcourse the final factor will be when GDC’14 actually comes, but until then, things aren’t looking good for Mantle. I would also like to add that I felt very disappointed when I saw these queues. If they can suddenly, ‘magically’ pull such solutions out of the air then that means they were least bothered about it before, and only AMD’s pressure forced them to concede.
Source :- Wccf
   
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Default 03-07-2014, 16:58 | posts: 40 | Location: Spain

Well, Nvidia is likely to push Opengl instead of mantle, In march 20 in the GDC there's going to be some great news around Opengl: http://schedule.gdconf.com/session-id/828316

Approaching Zero Driver Overhead in OpenGL (presented by Nvidia)

They claimed 10x less overhead (that's even more than mantle that claims ~9x)

[...Graham Sellers (AMD), Tim Foley (Intel), Cass Everitt (NVIDIA) and John McDonald (NVIDIA) will present high-level concepts available in today's OpenGL implementations that radically reduce driver overhead by up to 10x or more...]

Anyway Nvidia has some Opengl extensions that give you low level access to hardware... AMD just has an Opengl implementation that barely works... but AMD is going to talk about Opengl in the GDC too, likely some good news...

And Opengl + Nvidia extensions are a Mantle like api since some time now.

Last edited by Sdar; 03-07-2014 at 17:16.
   
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Default 03-07-2014, 17:17 | posts: 2,221 | Location: USA

and yet no ones uses it.

there are some other advantages to mantel such as asynchonous memory pipelines (ability to use ALL memory in crossfire, not just 1/2)

Mind you, Dice isnt using it in BF4, just the usual AFR which of couse can only use duplicated memory. But perhaps someone will figure out how to implement it.

Last edited by The Mac; 03-07-2014 at 17:23.
   
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Default 03-07-2014, 17:19 | posts: 10,743 | Location: Finland

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Originally Posted by The Mac View Post
and yet no ones uses it.
Because there hasn't been extensions that work on all GPUs. Each vendor had their own extensions, that's apparently about to change.
   
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The Mac
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Default 03-07-2014, 17:22 | posts: 2,221 | Location: USA

sounds great, if its true, im all for new stuff.

However due to the timing of all this, i have a feeling its just damage control, and we wont see any of this implemented for at least 18 months....

If nothing else, mantel has been successful in lighting a fire under MS' and Chonos' ass...

Which is fine with me.
   
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Default 03-07-2014, 20:01 | posts: 40 | Location: Spain

No one uses it... but the reason is hilarious, GPU vendors thought that cause there's almost no games using opengl they could just pass with a ****ty Opengl implementation... so any devs thinking in use Opengl are going to run away as soon as they see how poorly implemented opengl was along some gpu vendors.

One nice example is ANGLE (almost native graphics layer engine) used in some web browsers:

Quote:
The goal of ANGLE is to allow Windows users to seamlessly run WebGL and other OpenGL ES 2.0 content by translating OpenGL ES 2.0 API calls to DirectX 9 or DirectX 11 API calls.
That is ****ing dumb why does someone need to take some program translate all the calls in real time (causing overhead) to another api (that is known to have more overhead than opengl)... well we can read some more and here is the reason:

Quote:
[... to work around bugs or quirks in the native graphics drivers...]
So, despite native webgl/Opengl ES run faster when there's no bugs in the driver side, to make it work with all the GPU's, they have to translate the calls to Dx...

In my opinion angle never should have exist, the drivers are not going to be fixed if anytime someone hit a bug looks for a way to workaround despite the loss of functionality and performance. (There's a lot of things that angle can't do yet, so once again if you are creating something with webGL you must try to make it work with angle or drop all Chrome and Firefox users in windows platforms).


And as a opposite example.. when steam was "porting" Left4dead 2 to linux they don't want to rewrite all the Dx stuff... so they use an abstraction layer that translates Direct3D calls to OpenGL calls.

So that should cause some performance loss... but with the same hardware:
Intel Core i7 3930k
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 680
32 GB RAM

They managed to run left4dead 2 at 315 FPS on linux, 303.4 FPS on windows (Using Opengl) and 270.6 FPS on windows (using DirectX) and i'm pretty sure that they're using just Opengl 2.x
   
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Default 03-07-2014, 20:34 | posts: 216

left4dead can give more more fps when linux kernel optimized. they can compile kernel for new cpus they can tweak lots of option.

opengl best for good coder. because open source. coder can touch like everything and can support opengl.

but there is microsoft trying to control all. if directx building work for used opengl im thinking opengl was far better. opengl-es realy succes on weak tablet gpus.

there is only lastest gpus supporting direct x11.2. there is no lots of dx11.2 game. and they are talking about dx 12.

if nivida and amd can build good apis. it will better than microsofts. microsoft not build gpu but trying to control all.

Last edited by dell7520user; 03-07-2014 at 20:39.
   
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