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Is Mantle exclusive to ATI/AMD or can future nvidia drivers adopt Mantle too?
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dr_hycodan
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Default Is Mantle exclusive to ATI/AMD or can future nvidia drivers adopt Mantle too? - 02-01-2014, 06:34 | posts: 36

The performance boost that Mantle offers over DX11 is surprisingly good. Would be ashamed if nvidia users have to stick with DX11 while ATI users get to use Mantle.
   
 
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PhazeDelta1
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Default 02-01-2014, 06:48 | posts: 13,603 | Location: USA

Mantle isn't proprietary. Nvidia can use it if they want. But I highly doubt they will
   
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V@IO
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Default 02-01-2014, 08:46 | posts: 491 | Location: 30.0000° S, 25.0000° E

^ Yip, for Nvidia to use Mantle would be like Apple using Android on their iPhone's, it aint gonna happen.

But then again, i don`t think Nvidia is just going to sit back and do nothing (well i hope not) they might plan some kind of counter-technology of sorts.

Last edited by V@IO; 02-01-2014 at 08:49.
   
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Default 02-01-2014, 09:08 | posts: 972 | Location: UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by V@IO View Post
^ Yip, for Nvidia to use Mantle would be like Apple using Android on their iPhone's, it aint gonna happen.

But then again, i don`t think Nvidia is just going to sit back and do nothing (well i hope not) they might plan some kind of counter-technology of sorts.
Mantle isn't anti Nvidia, it's anti Microsoft!

Game developers do not want to develop for 3 different APIs. Nvidia will be forced into supporting Mantle.
   
 
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Default 02-01-2014, 09:14 | posts: 13,603 | Location: USA

Maybe but they wont support it unless they absolutely have to.. Just look at how long it took them to start making drivers for linux
   
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Default 02-01-2014, 11:23 | posts: 3,039 | Location: UK

For mantle to truly succeed we need nvidia on board.
   
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Default 02-01-2014, 11:39 | posts: 279 | Location: curitiba brazil

nvidia create a Mantle emulator, more slow with dx 11 lol

problem is dx 11 totaly desotimized bad coded

please microsoft fix dx 11 create service pack for dx 11 to optimize dx 11 = dx 9.0c




pratical example


same game on dx 11 very slow 1/10 speed dx 9

Last edited by maur0; 02-01-2014 at 11:50.
   
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squalles
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Default 02-01-2014, 11:56 | posts: 266 | Location: Brazil

amd says mantle is open... but to nvidia use that need uses gcn in your architecture... so... is no open... is exclusive...

nvidia announced make your own api now...

dx12 announced soon with same gain than mantle and new nvidia api... so... microsoft owned amd and nvidia... and us gonna see this api´s death in soon...
   
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Default 02-01-2014, 12:56 | posts: 11,011 | Location: Finland

Quote:
Originally Posted by squalles View Post
amd says mantle is open... but to nvidia use that need uses gcn in your architecture... so... is no open... is exclusive...

nvidia announced make your own api now...

dx12 announced soon with same gain than mantle and new nvidia api... so... microsoft owned amd and nvidia... and us gonna see this api´s death in soon...
Nay. They said Mantel is not GCN exclusive. Mantle is thin abstraction layer. AMD is not stupid enough to make API that would only work with GCN. What would happen when they release new architecture? Exactly.... If AMD releases proper documentation then it might be possible to make driver for it. "...leading up to a public release of the specifications later in 2014."

Last edited by Anarion; 02-01-2014 at 13:03.
   
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Default 02-01-2014, 13:37 | posts: 546

what the hell?
M_A_N_T_L_E ...mantle thread in the Nvidia section?
hey OP, what mantle has shown so far (bf4) , still nothing revolutionary to be honest.
   
 
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Default 02-01-2014, 14:03 | posts: 591

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
Nay. They said Mantel is not GCN exclusive. Mantle is thin abstraction layer. AMD is not stupid enough to make API that would only work with GCN. What would happen when they release new architecture? Exactly.... If AMD releases proper documentation then it might be possible to make driver for it. "...leading up to a public release of the specifications later in 2014."
No he is right, that is how low level api work , its very specific to HW .
Sure Nvidia could problably use some of it now (if driver supported) but it be very limited and probably not worth it.
For it to be worth it they would need to redo HW architecture that works just like AMD does .
If rummors of Maxwell using co-processor onboard , I wonder how that could be used to take up slake and some BW of CPU .

I doubt we see low level driver from Nvidia, If they wanted to go down that road they had best time to do it when they took over 3DFX . They never used any of that tech AFAIK .

The best thing that can come out of this is better Dx extensions from MS .
   
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CalinTM
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Default 02-01-2014, 14:16 | posts: 1,124 | Location: Timisoara, Romania

This API will die like the rest of API's across the history, remember ?

AMD wants their users to think they can put maximum performance, but they don't have the resources compared with the behemoth, Nvidia.
   
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---TK---
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Default 02-01-2014, 14:51 | posts: 18,793 | Location: New Jersey, USA

If its so open why do you need a 7000 series or higher to run it?
   
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Default 02-01-2014, 16:07 | posts: 63 | Location: Hackettstown, New Jersey

Nvidia already has nvapi.
   
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Default 02-01-2014, 16:10 | posts: 119

Well these numbers should wake up folks at nVidia if they think that this is not a big deal (performance and marketing perspective):
http://www.golem.de/news/amds-mantle...-104261-3.html

Last edited by MrMicrochip; 02-01-2014 at 16:16.
   
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dnottis
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Default 02-01-2014, 16:36 | posts: 671

I dunno, I overclock my GPU and CPU and I gain more than 12-15% in performance. Not really impressed. Show me a 75% increase and I'd consider it. Being AMD I'm sure there are issues not mentioned in these articles too. ie, the beta mantle driver probably breaks every other game so you'd be swapping sets depending on which game you are playing. At least that was the my last experience with AMD and my 5800 series cards. I don't intend on going back to that crap.
   
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-Tj-
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Default 02-01-2014, 16:43 | posts: 8,094 | Location: Urban`Jungle

So many false random facts going on here.. Not really surprised

Quote:
Originally Posted by maur0 View Post
nvidia create a Mantle emulator, more slow with dx 11 lol

problem is dx 11 totaly desotimized bad coded

please microsoft fix dx 11 create service pack for dx 11 to optimize dx 11 = dx 9.0c


...
This has nothing to do with mantle, what you see here is tessellation and all extra dx11 features limiting it..

DarkOneZ13
That is not the same, its just hw monitoring layer.


GCN is very similar to nvidia's gpus since Fermi days, that's why there wouldn't be any real issues supporting it.


Nvidia needs a proper driver and then it will work.



This slide says it all.



So again its up to nvidia to support it, all you need to bitch @ nvidia forums.
https://forums.geforce.com/
   
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Mythril
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Default 02-01-2014, 16:46 | posts: 105 | Location: England

Personally I'd like to think nVidia will jump on the Mantel bandwagon and soon but if they don't I can only think it's because they are too "stuck up" (for a better word) for their own good. Mantle is a good thing. A step in the right direction.

There is a lot of hate towards Mantel at present I feel from some nVidia users but I'm sure if nVidia had brought Mantel to the table first, these same naysayers would sing a different tune.

I truly hope nVidia see sense and support this new API. At the end of the day more speed is a good thing. So please nVidia, have a good long hard think about your next move. I'd love to see you support Mantel to it's full but if in the future Mantel become a big player and you're still not playing ball then I see no other option but to jump ship and I believe a lot will.
   
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Default 02-01-2014, 17:40 | posts: 11,011 | Location: Finland

Quote:
Originally Posted by EdKiefer View Post
No he is right, that is how low level api work , its very specific to HW .
Sure Nvidia could problably use some of it now (if driver supported) but it be very limited and probably not worth it.
For it to be worth it they would need to redo HW architecture that works just like AMD does .
If rummors of Maxwell using co-processor onboard , I wonder how that could be used to take up slake and some BW of CPU .

I doubt we see low level driver from Nvidia, If they wanted to go down that road they had best time to do it when they took over 3DFX . They never used any of that tech AFAIK .

The best thing that can come out of this is better Dx extensions from MS .
He is not right. You can not compare mantle and glide. It has abstraction layer, thin and "better" according to AMD and it is not tied to GCN.
   
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Default 02-01-2014, 18:01 | posts: 591

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
He is not right. You can not compare mantle and glide. It has abstraction layer, thin and "better" according to AMD and it is not tied to GCN.
IMO , It would not be thin layer if they tried to support it on there hardware .
The way it gets to be thin is to being very specific in function .
   
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---TK---
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Default 02-01-2014, 18:57 | posts: 18,793 | Location: New Jersey, USA

Believe its been stated that most features would work if nvidia adopted it. That would be the deal breaker if nvidia cards could not benefit 100%. There's a better chance of nvidia making its own api than adopting mantle with most features. My bet is nvidia wont do anything and stand pat. If its so open why no love for cayman or the 5000 series?
   
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-Tj-
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Default 02-01-2014, 19:04 | posts: 8,094 | Location: Urban`Jungle

Because VLIW is something completely different to GCN.
   
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Default 02-01-2014, 19:19 | posts: 2,169 | Location: USA, Pennsylvania

We already know that what Mantle does can be done with OpenGL. By AMD.
http://www.dsogaming.com/news/amd-ai...he-bottleneck/
Don't be so naive to these par of the course business, AMD knows Mantle will not be used by NVidia. Why else would they spend millions lobbying to EA to get it implemented in BF4 and Frostbite. To help everyone else?

Simple answer. Just like G-Sync, which could have been done over time with existing standards, NVidia wanted it now and they wanted to get PR out of it. AMD's Mantle, which could have been done over time with an existing API, wanted it now and they wanted to get PR out of it.

If a technology takes off, and they have it before the competition, it makes them look really good and on top of things, which is an important view to have of a tech company. Happens all the time between these companies in particular, SLI was first, it took off, then came crossfire. First was Eyefinity, it took off, then came Surround. And naturally, it can go the opposite way, and neither company wants to make a competing tech for something that may be doomed to fail.
So they will talk smack on one another until it does come out, then the cards are really on the table. So, I suggest as an end user, you wait and see what happens. It's what they are doing.

Last edited by Cyberdyne; 02-01-2014 at 19:21.
   
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Default 02-01-2014, 19:21 | posts: 7

Have you not read the Guru3D review of Mantle?

Mantle is ONLY useful when you have a WEAK AMD APU... If you have a far superior, powerful Intel Quad, Mantle provides 3% improvement. 3 freaking %. Mantle is useful to compensate for a weak CPU, which makes sense since AMD's bulldozer has for the last half decade proven to be horribly weak. AMD has now even recognized their CPU just plain sucks. They don't even try to lie anymore about it. Mantle is useful if you are using an AMD Kaveri, otherwise it's a waste of your time.

I don't see any reason why Nvidia should waste resources on Mantle. I plan on building a desktop with probably an R9 280X, but that's only because for the next 5 years, all games will be optimized for AMD hardware (PS4/XBone).

But even though consoles are using the incredibly pathetic AMD APUs, doesn't mean you should join the Mantle bandwagon. Microsoft will NEVER let Mantle on their console. XBone is all about leveraging DX 11.2. Allowing Mantle will go against that since 11.2 has features to compensate for low level API weaknesses. And Sony has already implied they won't allow Mantle on the PS4. So that leaves PC Gamers. Really? I only know a few PC Gamers using weak AMD APUs, everyone else is on Intel Quads. Mantle is going to die not just because most APIs die vs OpenGL/DX, but because there won't be a demand for it.
   
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Default 02-01-2014, 19:23 | posts: 131 | Location: PA, USA

NVidia needs to start supporting it. Since AMD owns the cores of the current gen gaming platforms, and is also on many PCs, vendors will start programming for it in earnest. It makes it much simpler to port their console games to PCs - and vice versa.

I have already made the choice that my next vid card will be an ATI card if NVidia does not support Mantle by then. I have no desire to upgrade my CPU and Mantle will help me delay that upgrade even longer.
   
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