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Nvidia responds to AMD's ''free sync'' demo
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Spets
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Default Nvidia responds to AMD's ''free sync'' demo - 01-08-2014, 11:24 | posts: 2,069

Quote:
CES — On the show floor here at CES today, I spoke briefly with Nvidia's Tom Petersen, the executive instrumental in the development of G-Sync technology, about the AMD "free sync" demo we reported on yesterday. Alongside the demo, a senior AMD engineering executive asserted that a variable refresh rate capability like G-Sync ought to be possible essentially for free, without adding any extra costs to a display or a PC system. Peterson had several things to say in response to AMD's demo and claims.

He first said, of course, that he was excited to see his competitor taking an interest in dynamic refresh rates and thinking that the technology could offer benefits for gamers. In his view, AMD interest was validation of Nvidia's work in this area.

However, Petersen quickly pointed out an important detail about AMD's "free sync" demo: it was conducted on laptop systems. Laptops, he explained, have a different display architecture than desktops, with a more direct interface between the GPU and the LCD panel, generally based on standards like LVDS or eDP (embedded DisplayPort). Desktop monitors use other interfaces, like HDMI and DisplayPort, and typically have a scaler chip situated in the path between the GPU and the panel. As a result, a feature like variable refresh is nearly impossible to implement on a desktop monitor as things now stand.

That, Petersen explained, is why Nvidia decided to create its G-Sync module, which replaces the scaler ASIC with logic of Nvidia's own creation. To his knowledge, no scaler ASIC with variable refresh capability exists—and if it did, he said, "we would know." Nvidia's intent in building the G-Sync module was to enable this capability and thus to nudge the industry in the right direction.

When asked about a potential VESA standard to enable dynamic refresh rates, Petersen had something very interesting to say: he doesn't think it's necessary, because DisplayPort already supports "everything required" for dynamic refresh rates via the extension of the vblank interval. That's why, he noted, G-Sync works with existing cables without the need for any new standards. Nvidia sees no need and has no plans to approach VESA about a new standard for G-Sync-style functionality—because it already exists.

That said, Nvidia won't enable G-Sync for competing graphics chips because it has invested real time and effort in building a good solution and doesn't intend to "do the work for everyone." If the competition wants to have a similar feature in its products, Petersen said, "They have to do the work. They have to hire the guys to figure it out."
http://www.guru3d.com/news_story/nvi..._freesync.html
   
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4K Monitor with G-Sync
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Default 4K Monitor with G-Sync - 01-08-2014, 11:27 | posts: 2,069

If anyone missed it, 4k monitor running G-Sync:
Quote:
But at the NVIDIA booth at CES this year the company was truly showing off G-Sync technology to its fullest capability. By taking the 3840x2160 ASUS PQ321Q monitor and modifying it with the same G-Sync module technology we were able to see variable refresh rate support in 4K glory.
Obviously you can't see much from the photo above about the smoothness of the animation, but I can assure you that in person this looks incredible. In fact, 4K might be the perfect resolution for G-Sync to shine as running games at that high of a resolution will definitely bring your system to its knees, dipping below that magical 60 Hz / FPS rate. But when it does with this modified panel, you'll still get smooth game play and a a tear-free visual experience.
http://www.pcper.com/news/Graphics-C...Monitor-G-Sync
   
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Default 01-08-2014, 11:30 | posts: 6,889 | Location: Dubai

This para is a bummer about FreeSync

Quote:
However, Petersen quickly pointed out an important detail about AMD's "free sync" demo: it was conducted on laptop systems. Laptops, he explained, have a different display architecture than desktops, with a more direct interface between the GPU and the LCD panel, generally based on standards like LVDS or eDP (embedded DisplayPort). Desktop monitors use other interfaces, like HDMI and DisplayPort, and typically have a scaler chip situated in the path between the GPU and the panel. As a result, a feature like variable refresh is nearly impossible to implement on a desktop monitor as things now stand.
Edit: the comments on that site are interesting. Apparently Displayport 1.3 capable monitors will have all this fancy stuff built in so Gsync won't be of much value in the long run.

Last edited by lucidus; 01-08-2014 at 11:33.
   
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Default 01-08-2014, 12:32 | posts: 1,553 | Location: EU, CZ, Brno

And that is why I no longer buy nVidia GPUs. I do not want to support business model which intentionally locks everything they make on multi-vendor platform.

And telling things like: "It does not exists because we don't know anyone who make it.", or that "feature like variable refresh is nearly impossible to implement on a desktop monitor as things now stand" is like saying: "competitors effort is certainly going to fail".

I would AMD let to do their part with VESA as always. And all of us will benefit in the end.
AMD users with nice feature to have and nVidia users with add-in cards cheaper than now as nVidia will be forced to lower price.

But as some of legit reviews already stated, G-Sync looks amazing in comparison to classical 60Hz, but is only minor to no improvement against 120Hz+ displays.
And honestly who would invest to 144Hz screen to play at 50fps?

One day we will have Oled with real 0.001ms refresh time paired with up to 300Hz FreeSync/G-Sync and that would be real improvement.

As it stays now it has more point to have FreeSync/G-Sync on low Hz screens as it has very high benefit for them and in combination with laptops it's ideal.
   
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Default 01-08-2014, 12:43 | posts: 4,020 | Location: Finland

On freesync we have to wait till we know which displays have it and which do not. But at least it should be a standard on 1.3 then? Cause that makes all kinds of difference when I am in near future looking for UHD 10bit displays again
   
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Default 01-08-2014, 12:49 | posts: 56 | Location: England

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucidus View Post
This para is a bummer about FreeSync



Edit: the comments on that site are interesting. Apparently Displayport 1.3 capable monitors will have all this fancy stuff built in so Gsync won't be of much value in the long run.
Don't Korean monitors not have this scalar chip, due to there being only 1 input?

Tried to find the source for that information, but can't, may have imagined it.
   
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Default 01-08-2014, 12:54 | posts: 89

[QUOTE=Fox2232;4739605]And that is why I no longer buy nVidia GPUs. I do not want to support business model which intentionally locks everything they make on multi-vendor platform.

And telling things like: "It does not exists because we don't know anyone who make it.", or that "feature like variable refresh is nearly impossible to implement on a desktop monitor as things now stand" is like saying: "competitors effort is certainly going to fail".

lol how fanboyish is thman, everything propriatary , even you so called open mantel which isnt out yet and wont be open atleast for the first year amd themsefs stated that, this is a buisenes model they arent there to make you like them they are trying to make more money and after having invested in your work no sane person gives it away for free to his competitors
   
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Default 01-08-2014, 12:58 | posts: 26,668 | Location: Hampshire, UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by gUNN1993 View Post
Don't Korean monitors not have this scalar chip, due to there being only 1 input?

Tried to find the source for that information, but can't, may have imagined it.
Koreans (the single input ones) have a bypass board. Meaning it's gpu straight into the panel, no pcb in between. So in a way, similar to laptops, where there's nothing in between either.
   
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Default 01-08-2014, 13:18 | posts: 30 | Location: Osogbo, Nigeria

still, there's progress somehow.
   
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Default 01-08-2014, 13:29 | posts: 7 | Location: Argentina

There is already a specific demo or test program to download?,
like the pendulum or that wind turbine, where?.
   
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Default 01-08-2014, 13:38 | posts: 1,491 | Location: Warsaw, Poland

Quote:
Originally Posted by BUDA20 View Post
There is already a specific demo or test program to download?,
like the pendulum or that wind turbine, where?.
Just play games and look for tearing, especially on horizontal camera/object movement:
- tearing = v-sync off
- minimal tearing = v-sync off and 120Hz
- stuttering, lag, no tearing = v-sync on and <60fps
- minimal stuttering and lag, no tearing = v-sync on, 120Hz monitor, 40-60fps
- no stuttering, no lag visible = g-sync or v-sync with 60fps+ (even with 60fps+, vsync can add minimal lag)
   
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BUDA20
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Default 01-08-2014, 14:36 | posts: 7 | Location: Argentina

Thanks for the reply, but I'm looking for useful tool for testing.

Any download links for any of these programs?

Last edited by BUDA20; 01-08-2014 at 14:53.
   
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Default 01-08-2014, 14:56 | posts: 26,668 | Location: Hampshire, UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by BUDA20 View Post
Thanks for the reply, but I'm looking for useful tool for testing.

Any download links for any of these programs?
Nope
   
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Default 01-08-2014, 15:28 | posts: 4,899 | Location: Washington DC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox2232 View Post
And telling things like: "It does not exists because we don't know anyone who make it.", or that "feature like variable refresh is nearly impossible to implement on a desktop monitor as things now stand" is like saying: "competitors effort is certainly going to fail".
They are going to fail. Nvidia obviously did the research and found that the only way to make this work on desktop displays is to design and implement the G-Synch module. They even said in the interview "Nvidia's intent in building the G-Sync module was to enable this capability and thus to nudge the industry in the right direction." This direction is to have displayport 1.3 on all monitors going forward. If AMD put any effort into this at all they would have shown this off on a modern desktop PC. But no, they put something together quick to make sure everyone knew that they had this technology too.

Just as a sidenote, I walked into my local BestBuy yesterday and out of the 30-40 monitors they had on display, 2 of them had displayport inputs. Everything else is DVI/HDMI. The display industry has progressed very little in the last few years.
   
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eclap
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Default 01-08-2014, 15:35 | posts: 26,668 | Location: Hampshire, UK

don't think it's a port limitation no matter how you swing it.
   
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Default 01-08-2014, 16:03 | posts: 1,624 | Location: Miami, FL

It's dumb that there's not a lot of DisplayPort monitors on the market. You can get Korean 1440p monitors with DisplayPort ffs.
   
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Default 01-08-2014, 16:18 | posts: 26,668 | Location: Hampshire, UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seref View Post
It's dumb that there's not a lot of DisplayPort monitors on the market. You can get Korean 1440p monitors with DisplayPort ffs.
can you? where? and again, where does it say free-sync/gsync is only doable via dp?
   
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Default 01-08-2014, 16:46 | posts: 10,986 | Location: Finland

Quote:
Originally Posted by eclap View Post
can you? where? and again, where does it say free-sync/gsync is only doable via dp?
http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphic...-NVIDIA-G-Sync

You can't do that stuff through DVI, it just doesn't have the capability.
   
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eclap
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Default 01-08-2014, 17:01 | posts: 26,668 | Location: Hampshire, UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphic...-NVIDIA-G-Sync

You can't do that stuff through DVI, it just doesn't have the capability.
again, that's eDP is not display port, if we want to be accurate. most likely ran on eDP because DP is the smallest video connector so embedding a DP is a lot easier in laptops (where components have to be smaller).

I still haven't seen anything to say that this can't be done on DVI

Last edited by eclap; 01-08-2014 at 17:03.
   
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Default 01-08-2014, 17:17 | posts: 9,804 | Location: Sweden

Quote:
Originally Posted by eclap View Post
again, that's eDP is not display port, if we want to be accurate. most likely ran on eDP because DP is the smallest video connector so embedding a DP is a lot easier in laptops (where components have to be smaller).

I still haven't seen anything to say that this can't be done on DVI
Quote:
it includes a new Panel Self-Refresh (PSR) feature developed to save system power and further extend battery life in portable PC systems.[21] PSR mode allows GPU to enter power saving state in between frame updates by including framebuffer memory in the display panel controlle
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DisplayPort )

Something about these features not being supported under DVI, HDMI or even regular Display Port 1.2 currently, thus AMD demoing this using eDP on laptop, or so I understood it.
(Apparently DP 1.3 will have something like that, unsure about HDMI 2.0)

Someone else can likely give a better explanation.
(I believe GSync also requires DP for now although that could likely be adapted to DVI and HDMI since it's a external controller module.)
   
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Default 01-08-2014, 17:23 | posts: 51

"I would AMD let to do their part with VESA as always. And all of us will benefit in the end. AMD users with nice feature to have and nVidia users with add-in cards cheaper than now as nVidia will be forced to lower price."

In the end its good to have cheap/free tech for everybody but I will support companies who actually do innovations to get some more. If we always supported copycats there would not be the innovations to share. I don't want companies to make money with the same stuff for forever, but for some time is just healthy and motivating.
   
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Default 01-08-2014, 17:52 | posts: 15

lol...and that is why latelly i passed to the "green" side!...sure, theire very far from beeing saints, but when we look to the last 5 years, they really had a much better attitude, both in the tecnology as in posture....AMD, despair takes no where, you should know that....
   
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Default 01-08-2014, 18:02 | posts: 1,306 | Location: Mars

I like Nvidia´s GPUs but their stupid attitudes are really hard to ignore. Saying that they won´t share G-sync with AMD no matter what and that AMD should develop their own solution like that it´s really being an huge ass!!!

This way G-syng is gonna flop like Physix and the biggest loser is going to be Nvidia because someone will release a non proprietary solution that is gonna work for everyone...

Some guys just don´t learn...
   
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Default 01-08-2014, 18:02 | posts: 16,600 | Location: US East Coast

Quote:
Originally Posted by eclap View Post
don't think it's a port limitation no matter how you swing it.
It's not a "port" limitation at all. NVidia has intentionally built in limitations to prevent G-Sync from working on non-NVidia hardware. It really wouldn't be that difficult for say, Samung, to design a controller with a built in display buffer and logic to do exactly what nVidia's G-Sync module does, without being bound to a single GPU vendor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asgardi View Post
"I would AMD let to do their part with VESA as always. And all of us will benefit in the end. AMD users with nice feature to have and nVidia users with add-in cards cheaper than now as nVidia will be forced to lower price."

In the end its good to have cheap/free tech for everybody but I will support companies who actually do innovations to get some more. If we always supported copycats there would not be the innovations to share. I don't want companies to make money with the same stuff for forever, but for some time is just healthy and motivating.
AMD applied for a patent on this back in 2006. It would appear, based on the patent filing, that nVidia is actually the copycat.


   
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Default 01-08-2014, 18:20 | posts: 5,593 | Location: Switzerland

Its funny because, on the Asus who support G-sync... g-sync take place in the scaler ( in reality it replace it ).

Anandtech G-sync review. http://www.anandtech.com/show/7582/nvidia-gsync-review

Quote:
G-Sync is a hardware solution, and in this case the hardware resides inside a G-Sync enabled display. NVIDIA swaps out the display’s scaler for a G-Sync board, leaving the panel and timing controller (TCON) untouched. Despite its physical location in the display chain, the current G-Sync board doesn’t actually feature a hardware scaler. For its intended purpose, the lack of any scaling hardware isn’t a big deal since you’ll have a more than capable GPU driving the panel and handling all scaling duties.
Then:
Quote:
The first G-Sync module only supports output over DisplayPort 1.2, though there is nothing technically stopping NVIDIA from adding support for HDMI/DVI in future version
Definitevely some explanations are wrong somewhere.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sykozis View Post
AMD applied for a patent on this back in 2006. It would appear, based on the patent filing, that nVidia is actually the copycat.
In reality the first patent have been applied by ATI technologies in 2002, in 2006, AMD have transfer the licences under his name. ( as they have buy ATI at this time )

Last edited by Lane; 01-08-2014 at 18:35.
   
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