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Does Antialiasing / Transparency create input lag?
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Fabulist
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Default Does Antialiasing / Transparency create input lag? - 01-06-2014, 08:25 | posts: 14

I have been trying to find a solid source about this, or even a couple of technical opinions, but I was not able to find anything but a few bits in regard to Supersampling on which some people claimed it increases their input lag and even less information connecting to MSAA (from Google).

So lets assume we have the same amount of FPS (e.g. 300 / 125 / 120) regardless of whether we use Antialiasing, Transparencies, both or none.

Would enabling MSAA 4x in a game create any kind of input lag?

Would enabling MSAA 4x and 4x SuperSample create any kind of input lag?

Would enabling a specific Antialiasing / Transparency setting or enabling both of them simultaneously create any kind of input lag?

If anyone can give me some insight into these questions, whether it is a technical source or just their opinion, I would very much appreciate it.

As for me, this question has been giving me headaches, as I could say it does give input lag sometimes, and others I am questioning myself (assuming stable and equal FPS). But if there is some input lag, it is so small that it makes me doubt myself enough that I think that I have fallen into the placebo void.

Thanks to anyone who responds in advance!
   
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Default 01-06-2014, 09:55 | posts: 24,427 | Location: NZ

Quote:
Would enabling MSAA 4x in a game create any kind of input lag?

Would enabling MSAA 4x and 4x SuperSample create any kind of input lag?

Would enabling a specific Antialiasing / Transparency setting or enabling both of them simultaneously create any kind of input lag?
No
No
No
   
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Default 01-06-2014, 10:02 | posts: 330 | Location: London

No, but any perceived increase in input lag is likely due to lower / fluctuating framerates because of enabling these.
   
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Default 01-06-2014, 12:05 | posts: 380 | Location: Košice, Slovakia

Dude has gaming beast and asking this kind of questions? I wonder how much stupid can one be...
   
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Pill Monster
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Default 01-06-2014, 12:08 | posts: 24,427 | Location: NZ

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Originally Posted by Terepin View Post
Dude has gaming beast and asking this kind of questions? I wonder how much stupid can one be...
Dude comes onto a tech forum asks a perfectly reasonable question, this is how you reply? I wonder how much more of a douche you can be....

Last edited by Pill Monster; 01-06-2014 at 12:15.
   
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Default 01-06-2014, 12:58 | posts: 161

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabulist View Post
I have been trying to find a solid source about this, or even a couple of technical opinions, but I was not able to find anything but a few bits in regard to Supersampling on which some people claimed it increases their input lag and even less information connecting to MSAA (from Google).

So lets assume we have the same amount of FPS (e.g. 300 / 125 / 120) regardless of whether we use Antialiasing, Transparencies, both or none.

Would enabling MSAA 4x in a game create any kind of input lag?

Would enabling MSAA 4x and 4x SuperSample create any kind of input lag?

Would enabling a specific Antialiasing / Transparency setting or enabling both of them simultaneously create any kind of input lag?

If anyone can give me some insight into these questions, whether it is a technical source or just their opinion, I would very much appreciate it.
Yes, it can increase input lag in some games in combination with V-Sync. This is due to the amount of time needed to render the frame. In games that try to reduce V-Sync input lag by waiting until the last moment to prepare the frame before rendering it, so that they can read player input as late as possible, an increase in rendering time means that input has to be read earlier. Note that the overall frame latency stays the same (at a V-Synced 60FPS, that would be 16.6ms), but with the rendering time getting higher, the input is read further away from that 16.6ms mark (when the vblank signal happens in the monitor) in order to have enough time to render the frame before the 16.6ms pass. The further away input is read, the more input lag there is.

However, some games do not try to decrease input lag at all and instead read input as early as possible; they are not waiting until the last moment to do so. MSAA will not increase input lag in those games (their input lag is already at the worst maximum value; it can't get any more worse than that.)

With V-Sync off, frame latency will increase, which will also result in more input lag, but it's very minor compared to V-Sync on, because without V-Sync the vblank signal is ignored.

Last edited by RealNC; 01-06-2014 at 13:01.
   
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Default 01-06-2014, 13:36 | posts: 24,427 | Location: NZ

Quote:
Originally Posted by RealNC View Post
Yes, it can increase input lag in some games in combination with V-Sync. This is due to the amount of time needed to render the frame. In games that try to reduce V-Sync input lag by waiting until the last moment to prepare the frame before rendering it, so that they can read player input as late as possible, an increase in rendering time means that input has to be read earlier. Note that the overall frame latency stays the same (at a V-Synced 60FPS, that would be 16.6ms), but with the rendering time getting higher, the input is read further away from that 16.6ms mark (when the vblank signal happens in the monitor) in order to have enough time to render the frame before the 16.6ms pass. The further away input is read, the more input lag there is.

However, some games do not try to decrease input lag at all and instead read input as early as possible; they are not waiting until the last moment to do so. MSAA will not increase input lag in those games (their input lag is already at the worst maximum value; it can't get any more worse than that.)

With V-Sync off, frame latency will increase, which will also result in more input lag, but it's very minor compared to V-Sync on, because without V-Sync the vblank signal is ignored.
Can I just point out that anything under 50ms rendering time is not noticeable as input lag by the user....... Vsync is noticable, because the mouse cursor updates the screen position a whole lot slower......

Last edited by Pill Monster; 01-06-2014 at 13:45.
   
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Default 01-06-2014, 14:05 | posts: 380 | Location: Košice, Slovakia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pill Monster View Post
Dude comes onto a tech forum asks a perfectly reasonable question, this is how you reply? I wonder how much more of a douche you can be....
As much reasonable as asking if rain is causing bad texture quality...
   
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Default 01-06-2014, 14:08 | posts: 161

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pill Monster View Post
Can I just point out that anything under 50ms rendering time is not noticeable as input lag by the user....... Vsync is noticable, because the mouse cursor updates the screen position a whole lot slower......
Er... not sure about that :-P 16.6ms sure is lower than 50...
   
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Default 01-06-2014, 14:16 | posts: 1,155 | Location: Timisoara, Romania

AA creates mouse input lag. You need a very high fps with AA on to not feel that input lag.
   
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Default 01-06-2014, 14:31 | posts: 14

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pill Monster View Post
Can I just point out that anything under 50ms rendering time is not noticeable as input lag by the user....... Vsync is noticable, because the mouse cursor updates the screen position a whole lot slower......
Pill Monster thank you for all your input.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RealNC View Post
Yes, it can increase input lag in some games in combination with V-Sync. This is due to the amount of time needed to render the frame. In games that try to reduce V-Sync input lag by waiting until the last moment to prepare the frame before rendering it, so that they can read player input as late as possible, an increase in rendering time means that input has to be read earlier. Note that the overall frame latency stays the same (at a V-Synced 60FPS, that would be 16.6ms), but with the rendering time getting higher, the input is read further away from that 16.6ms mark (when the vblank signal happens in the monitor) in order to have enough time to render the frame before the 16.6ms pass. The further away input is read, the more input lag there is.

However, some games do not try to decrease input lag at all and instead read input as early as possible; they are not waiting until the last moment to do so. MSAA will not increase input lag in those games (their input lag is already at the worst maximum value; it can't get any more worse than that.)

With V-Sync off, frame latency will increase, which will also result in more input lag, but it's very minor compared to V-Sync on, because without V-Sync the vblank signal is ignored.
RealNC thank you for your input too. However, I would prefer we do not mix Vsync into this, it is irrelevant to the question and it could bring implications in regard to clarifying my inquiry - I am really only worried about Antialiasing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terepin View Post
Dude has gaming beast and asking this kind of questions? I wonder how much stupid can one be...
So since I am stupid and your basis of your mature and educated argument is the fact that I own a "gaming beast", why don't you provide us with your infinite technical insight on the matter, you obviously possess it, since you correspond to this question as if it is something that is globally known and understood.

Don't you have something better to do but being rude and non-constructive?

-

To the rest, thank you for your responses, I will be looking forward to receiving more, hopefully.

Please remember; the example is that we are having stable FPS in all alternatives, so the perceived input lag from frame drops should not be an assumption.
   
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Default 01-06-2014, 15:06 | posts: 24,427 | Location: NZ

Quote:
Originally Posted by RealNC View Post
Er... not sure about that :-P 16.6ms sure is lower than 50...
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6857/a...oadmap-fraps/3
   
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Default 01-06-2014, 15:21 | posts: 161

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pill Monster View Post
This about stuttering, not input lag
   
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Default 01-06-2014, 15:32 | posts: 380 | Location: Košice, Slovakia

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Originally Posted by Fabulist View Post
Don't you have something better to do but being rude and non-constructive?
Sure: http://bit.ly/19MzbYl
   
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Default 01-06-2014, 15:50 | posts: 1,323 | Location: Langley,B.C. Canada

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Originally Posted by Terepin View Post
Sure that's a lot more constructive.Asking this question on a tech forum that especially geared towards this kind of thing is lot more useful than just googling it.That's what the forum is designed to do.
   
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Default 01-06-2014, 16:12 | posts: 380 | Location: Košice, Slovakia

I would agree with it if his question was complex. But this is essential knowledge, therefore Google will do just fine.
Besides, this kind of thinking of contra productive. If I dont know what AA is causing, I wont start asking about every possibility I can think of. I will ask what it can do, what are pros and cons.
Not only answers, but question needs to be constructive as well.
   
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Default 01-06-2014, 16:39 | posts: 24,427 | Location: NZ

Quote:
Originally Posted by RealNC View Post
This about stuttering, not input lag
Read again, it's about rendering time (frame latency).
   
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Default 01-06-2014, 16:44 | posts: 1,594 | Location: Temeswar, Romania

I never experienced input lag from AA unless i had under 20 fps after activating AA but thats "everywhere lag" territory. If you have high fps there shouldnt be any reason for input lag to occour unless you activate V-sync...and even then not always.
   
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Terepin
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Default 01-06-2014, 17:45 | posts: 380 | Location: Košice, Slovakia

Frame lag, not input lag.
   
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Default 01-06-2014, 18:02 | posts: 14

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terepin View Post
I would agree with it if his question was complex. But this is essential knowledge, therefore Google will do just fine.
Besides, this kind of thinking of contra productive. If I dont know what AA is causing, I wont start asking about every possibility I can think of. I will ask what it can do, what are pros and cons.
Not only answers, but question needs to be constructive as well.
The only one here being contra productive is you and I do not see the reason why, are you trying to prove something?

For starters, providing a Google search of something that I already stated that I did search in my main post does not really answer anything, review what I wrote on my primary post before bloating the thread with useless posts.

Secondly, you claim this is essential knowledge. However, I see that you are providing zero technical proof on the matter - I know exactly what AA is, but since no actual information in regard to such a side effect exists, I wanted to seek a technical or opinion oriented answer here.

If you feel my question is being non-constructive, why bother answering by being rude / spamming / trying to start a flame war?

Since you know something definite about it and since it is "essential knowledge" provide us with your in-depth technical justification about it, otherwise you are just embarrassing yourself with your behaviour.
   
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Default 01-06-2014, 18:03 | posts: 2,048 | Location: Sault Ste. Marie Ont. CA

Here you go..http://www.tweakguides.com/NVFORCE_6.html Everything explained. Good luck.
   
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Default 01-06-2014, 18:07 | posts: 3,073 | Location: Denmark

As the 1st answer already said, it can not create input lag.
Input lag depends on the quality of your displays input and if it is controller related the software for that controller and/or timing related settings.

Plus a Titan should not have frame issues either with low quality AA + transparency.

As for stable and equal fps... it really depends on how much the card has to render.
If you only throw things at it that are fast to render, sure, you will have stable fps, but as soon as you got a lot to render pr. frame and/or rendering gets complicated fps will fluctuate.
   
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Default 01-06-2014, 18:09 | posts: 24,427 | Location: NZ

I think there are some confushed people in this thread as we seem to be discussing 2 different things. OP do u wanna know about input (mouse lag) or frame latency (stuttering)?

And there are no stupid questions that's why this forum is here, people helping people...
   
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Default 01-06-2014, 18:15 | posts: 3,073 | Location: Denmark

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pill Monster View Post
I think there are some confushed people in this thread as we seem to be discussing 2 different things. OP do u wanna know about input (mouse lag) or frame latency (stuttering)?

And there are no stupid questions that's why this forum is here, people helping people...
I think the OP formulated his question with incorrect terms.
What he really asks is if 4xMSAA + TSAA can cause drops in fps, which it can if there is a lot to render already.

It might help to get a small list and according min/max fps upon the games in question..
   
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Default 01-06-2014, 18:15 | posts: 14

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mineria View Post
As the 1st answer already said, it can not create input lag.
Input lag depends on the quality of your displays input and if it is controller related the software for that controller and/or timing related settings.

Plus a Titan should not have frame issues either with low quality AA + transparency.

As for stable and equal fps... it really depends on how much the card has to render.
If you only throw things at it that are fast to render, sure, you will have stable fps, but as soon as you got a lot to render pr. frame and/or rendering gets complicated fps will fluctuate.
I can take the first answer as granted, which is probably correct but I was very interested to see what others think about this, and maybe even there is some kind of technical proof about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pill Monster View Post
I think there are some confushed people in this thread as we seem to be discussing 2 different things. OP do u wanna know about input (mouse lag) or frame latency (stuttering)?

And there are no stupid questions that's why this forum is here, people helping people...
Well I thought the question was simplistic enough; yes input lag would be the question. Not caused from low framerates, or framerate fluctuations rather whether the AA & AA transparency technologies themselves, regardless of FPS (assume 120 FPS with AA off / on), are liable to create a certain amount of delay similar to the delay Vsync creates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mineria View Post
I think the OP formulated his question with incorrect terms.
What he really asks is if 4xMSAA + TSAA can cause drops in fps, which it can if there is a lot to render already.

It might help to get a small list and according min/max fps upon the games in question..
No.

So lets assume we have the same amount of FPS (e.g. 300 / 125 / 120) regardless of whether we use Antialiasing, Transparencies, both or none.

Would enabling MSAA 4x in a game create any kind of input lag?

The question applies to the AA technology itself. I am not asking whether if I Enable AA = Less Frames Per Second = Input Lag if Below Acceptable Levels.

Assume you have any imaginable framerate, and does not change at all if you enable AA. Would MSAA (or any other AA) or / and Supersampling create any kind of input lag like when you enable Vsync?

Last edited by Fabulist; 01-06-2014 at 18:21.
   
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