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Throttling? Insufficient VRM cooling on 780 ti?
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pangeltveit
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Default Throttling? Insufficient VRM cooling on 780 ti? - 12-12-2013, 13:45 | posts: 33 | Location: Norway

Greetings,

I put on a Arctic cooling Accelero Hybrid on my GTX 780 ti yesterday and did a few quick tests before I called it a night.

in Unigine Heaven, it was running beautifully, with only a few artifacts, was reaching 1340mhz on the core with stock volts.

it was not throttling down though, but then I launched a game, and after 5 minutes the Mhz dropped to 550-650 on the core and the game crashed and I had to reset my PC.

The bigger heatsinks that came with the set did not fit on the card so I had to go for the "smaller" ones, but with direct airflow over them I would think it enough?


Does it sound like a "too hot VRM issue"? The GPU Core did not go above 44'C

Last edited by pangeltveit; 12-12-2013 at 20:42.
   
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Extraordinary
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Default 12-12-2013, 13:53 | posts: 6,562 | Location: 127.0.0.1

GPU core didn't go above 34c during gaming / benching ?

Find that hard to believe
   
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pangeltveit
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Default 12-12-2013, 14:05 | posts: 33 | Location: Norway

Quote:
Originally Posted by Extraordinary View Post
GPU core didn't go above 34c during gaming / benching ?

Find that hard to believe
Apologies, it was 44'C,


Last edited by pangeltveit; 12-12-2013 at 21:36.
   
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Pill Monster
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Default 12-12-2013, 14:09 | posts: 24,013 | Location: NZ

Quote:
it was running beautifully, with only a few artifacts,
Say what??? lol

Artifacts appear when your clocks are too high. They are not a good thing, artifacts are very bad. Reduce the OC and your problems will no doubt disappear.


lmao.

Last edited by Pill Monster; 12-12-2013 at 14:13.
   
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pangeltveit
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Default 12-12-2013, 14:12 | posts: 33 | Location: Norway

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pill Monster View Post
Say what? lol

Artifacts mean your OC is too high. It's not a good thing, it's very bad. Reduce the OC and your problems will no doubt disappear.
Yes ofcourse, I will do that, but I would much rather want to overvolt it so that it is stable and no more artifacts, but if it is throttling at stock volts, then I would be forced to lower my Core clock.

Which is what I am wondering, if you think that the picture in my original post shows that my VRM has sufficient cooling?

Last edited by pangeltveit; 12-12-2013 at 20:44.
   
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Pill Monster
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Default 12-12-2013, 14:15 | posts: 24,013 | Location: NZ

Quote:
Originally Posted by pangeltveit View Post
Yes ofcourse, I will do that, but I would much rather want to overvolt it so that it is stable and no more artifacts, but if it is throttling at stock volts, then I would be forced to lower my Core clock.

Which is what I am wondering, if you think that the picture I "linked" in my original post (I got under 10 posts, so I cant post a real link) shows that my VRM has sufficient cooling?
Overheating pwm's will throttle back the clocks before overheating, but they won't cause artifacts. Anyway, at 44c the GPU isn't working hard enough to heat them up.
Vrm fets can handle about 100c before throttling anyway.

Once again, reduce your overclock.

Last edited by Pill Monster; 12-12-2013 at 14:22.
   
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pangeltveit
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Default 12-12-2013, 14:19 | posts: 33 | Location: Norway

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pill Monster View Post
Overheating vrm's don't cause artifacts, they simply throttle back the clocks, but at 44c there is no way vrm's are heating up...the GPU isn't working hard enough.

Once again, reduce your overclock.
how does my GPU temperature affect my VRM temperature?

They do not share the same Cooler. I have a Closed liquid cooler on the GPU, and Aluminum heatsinks on the VRM's, with a fan above them.

Would not a overclocked GPU, make the VRM's work harder and therefore produce more heat? even if the GPU is not overvolted?

and if I can overvolt the GPU, with my VRM staying cool, why should I not do that instead of tuning down my overclock?

edit: and the GTX 7xx series dont allow you to monitor the VRM temperatures, as far as I know, so I cant know if I am reaching that 100'c line.
Also, ive read that it is 75'C for the GTX 700's, might be wrong about that though.
   
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Pill Monster
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Default 12-12-2013, 14:23 | posts: 24,013 | Location: NZ

Forget it.
   
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southamptonfc
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Default 12-12-2013, 14:24 | posts: 872 | Location: UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by pangeltveit View Post
Greetings,

I put on a Arctic cooling Accelero Hybrid on my GTX 780 ti yesterday and did a few quick tests before I called it a night.

in Unigine Heaven, it was running beautifully, with only a few artifacts, was reaching 1340mhz on the core with stock volts.

it was not throttling down though, but then I launched a game, and after 5 minutes the Mhz dropped to 550-650 on the core and the game crashed and I had to reset my PC.

The bigger heatsinks that came with the set did not fit on the card so I had to go for the "smaller" ones, but with direct airflow over them I would think it enough? imageshack.us/scaled/medium/29/5zqs.jpg

Does it sound like a "too hot VRM issue"? The GPU Core did not go above 44'C
It's most likely that the GPU speed dropped and the game crashed because your overclock was unstable. That is EXACTLY what happens with an unstable overclock on these gpus.

As Pill said, sort out your overclock and your problems will be gone.
   
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pangeltveit
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Default 12-12-2013, 14:32 | posts: 33 | Location: Norway

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pill Monster View Post
Forget it.
I might not have many posts on this Tech forum, doesnt mean I dont have many on others .

I dont know you, but I see you have been here a while and have alot of posts, but dont tell me you give up when not listened to or not responding as expected?


Quote:
Originally Posted by southamptonfc View Post
It's most likely that the GPU speed dropped and the game crashed because your overclock was unstable. That is EXACTLY what happens with an unstable overclock on these gpus.

As Pill said, sort out your overclock and your problems will be gone.
That is something I did not know, thanks for that piece of intel

Today's plan consists of Starting my OC-ing with overvolting as well, might borrow my fathers Thermal monitor "gun" to keep an eye on the VRM's
   
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Netherwind
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Default 12-12-2013, 16:26 | posts: 1,163 | Location: Sweden

I'm amazed that you managed to reach over 1300 on stock volts. Artefacts are afaik only visible if the memory is clocked too high but I might be wrong here. The benchmark/game crashed when the core was too high and gave me artefacts (checkerboard) when the VRAMs were too high.

If your temps are as low as you claim there should be headroom for some volt modding as long as you also increase your power limit. You may have to flash a custom BIOS allowing you to go up to 200% Power limit.
   
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Default 12-12-2013, 18:15 | posts: 793 | Location: Virginia

Your GPU clocks will drop if the GPU or driver crashes. Which can happen if your overclocking with not enough voltage.

My GTX680 will crash the driver and drop to low power 3D clocks if I go beyond approximately 1100Mhz on stock voltage. Sadly my card sucks and even overvolting I can't get beyond 1200Mhz without a driver crash or hard lock.
   
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Default 12-12-2013, 18:35 | posts: 1,417 | Location: EU, CZ, Brno

Quote:
Originally Posted by pangeltveit View Post
how does my GPU temperature affect my VRM temperature?

They do not share the same Cooler. I have a Closed liquid cooler on the GPU, and Aluminum heatsinks on the VRM's, with a fan above them.

Would not a overclocked GPU, make the VRM's work harder and therefore produce more heat? even if the GPU is not overvolted?

and if I can overvolt the GPU, with my VRM staying cool, why should I not do that instead of tuning down my overclock?

edit: and the GTX 7xx series dont allow you to monitor the VRM temperatures, as far as I know, so I cant know if I am reaching that 100'c line.
Also, ive read that it is 75'C for the GTX 700's, might be wrong about that though.
Higher gpu clocks = higher current draw.
Current goes through vrms.
Higher current = more heat generated.
   
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Default 12-12-2013, 19:49 | posts: 26,168 | Location: Hampshire UK

what were your top vrm temps? monitor with gpu-z and post back.
   
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Agent-A01
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Default 12-12-2013, 20:45 | posts: 6,571 | Location: USA

OP those aluminum heatsinks are garbage. I bought an accelero xtreme for my GTX 470. GPU temps max 40c and it would crash under load. VRM temps made it crash. I reused the PCB heatsink plate and it fixed my issue. Youre better off to stop your OC until you can buy some copper heatsinks, because aluminum sinks arent worth a damn
   
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pangeltveit
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Default 12-12-2013, 21:07 | posts: 33 | Location: Norway

Quote:
Originally Posted by Netherwind View Post
I'm amazed that you managed to reach over 1300 on stock volts. Artefacts are afaik only visible if the memory is clocked too high but I might be wrong here. The benchmark/game crashed when the core was too high and gave me artefacts (checkerboard) when the VRAMs were too high.

If your temps are as low as you claim there should be headroom for some volt modding as long as you also increase your power limit. You may have to flash a custom BIOS allowing you to go up to 200% Power limit.
I just now overclocked only my GPU and left memory at stock, I still got artifacts. But I think I will flash my card to get more out of it


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowdane View Post
Your GPU clocks will drop if the GPU or driver crashes. Which can happen if your overclocking with not enough voltage.

My GTX680 will crash the driver and drop to low power 3D clocks if I go beyond approximately 1100Mhz on stock voltage. Sadly my card sucks and even overvolting I can't get beyond 1200Mhz without a driver crash or hard lock.
I have been getting some driver crashes indeed, I think its time to up my volts


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox2232 View Post
Higher gpu clocks = higher current draw.
Current goes through vrms.
Higher current = more heat generated.
exactly as I though


Quote:
Originally Posted by eclap View Post
what were your top vrm temps? monitor with gpu-z and post back.
Sadly, I cant get any temp readings off of these cards, not on GPU-Z anyway.




Here are some pictures I took with an optical temperature reader, at directly on the heatsink of the VRM, I get ~50'c, on the back of the PCB right over the VRM's, I get aproximately 60-65'c.




Last edited by pangeltveit; 12-12-2013 at 21:10.
   
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Fox2232
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Default 12-12-2013, 21:14 | posts: 1,417 | Location: EU, CZ, Brno

From what range you are taking reading? If from more than 5-10cm, you are actually measuring pretty large area and thermometer display average infrared radiation.

Your thermometer should have somewhere written distance vs area ratio.
   
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pangeltveit
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Default 12-12-2013, 21:17 | posts: 33 | Location: Norway

aproximately 25cm from target, 7,5cm dot O.o, will re-test at closer range.
   
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Pill Monster
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Default 12-12-2013, 21:21 | posts: 24,013 | Location: NZ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Netherwind View Post
I'm amazed that you managed to reach over 1300 on stock volts. Artefacts are afaik only visible if the memory is clocked too high but I might be wrong here. The benchmark/game crashed when the core was too high and gave me artefacts (checkerboard) when the VRAMs were too high.
Artifacts can be due to either GPU or VRAM or even both at once.

Artifacts appearing as squares or blocks are always, always VRAM related, since the monitor is really a huge checkerboard, with each square mapped to a storage cell in vram.
Memory cells are laid out in rows and columns on the chip kinda like a naughts and crosses (X's & 0's) game.

Now, if data stored in a block of memory cells gets corrupted by high OC or whatever, the data stored in that block of cells will often be corrupted when it is sent to X's and 0's address on the monitor.

Fried or damaged vram shows up as a checkerboard pattern in the BIOS for the same reason, like with all those GeForce 8800's that had to be baked.

Just some fyi....


Btw can someone please resize their screenshots to 1q280x1024....thx

Last edited by Pill Monster; 12-12-2013 at 21:41.
   
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pangeltveit
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Default 12-12-2013, 21:27 | posts: 33 | Location: Norway

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pill Monster View Post
Artifacts can be due to either GPU or VRAM or even both depending on how unstable the overclock is.

You can tell VRAM artifacts because they always appear as squares or blocks.

This is because the monitor is really a huge checkerboard, and each square is mapped to a storage cell in vram.
Memory cells are laid out in rows and columns on the chip kinda like a naughts and crosses (X's & 0's) game.

Now, if data stored in a block of memory cells gets corrupted by high OC or whatever, the data stored in that block of cells will often be corrupted when it is sent to X's and 0's address on the monitor.

This is why vram artifacts always show up as squares.
Nice to know, thanks

The artifacts I have been getting is more like Lines and stretched textures going across the screen.

Not had them for a while now, currently reached max 1299Mhz on the core


New Temp readings, meassured at 2-3cm (0.75cm dot) and got max reading of 68'c above the VRM (back of PCB) and 52'c on the heatsinks.

This is in Unigine Heaven though, not Furmark which I am not planning on running.
   
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Pill Monster
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Default 12-12-2013, 21:37 | posts: 24,013 | Location: NZ

Quote:
Originally Posted by pangeltveit View Post
Nice to know, thanks

The artifacts I have been getting is more like Lines and stretched textures going across the screen.
Those spikes are likely from vram or memory controller.

GPU artifacts look more like random flickering/flashing textures or colour distortion.

Gotta go back to work...seeya
   
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pangeltveit
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Default 12-12-2013, 21:43 | posts: 33 | Location: Norway

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pill Monster View Post
Those spikes are likely from vram or memory controller.

GPU artifacts look more like random flickering/flashing textures or colour distortion.

Gotta go back to work...seeya

thanks for this, helps me figure out what I need to dial down ,

currently no artifacts at 1300mhz on the core, 3800mhz on the memory, all stock volts and power limit at 106%,

if the VRM temps are to be believed, I can crank the volts up a bit too, but as stated earlier, they are aluminum, so they arent the best, but I must live with them for now, and try to get a copper set that fits over the entire VRM portion of the PCB and that I can fasten with screws

Last edited by pangeltveit; 12-12-2013 at 21:58.
   
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sykozis
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Default 12-12-2013, 21:59 | posts: 16,427 | Location: US East Coast

aluminum heatsink + adhesive tape = bad

Find the Enzotech copper VRM heatsinks.


   
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pangeltveit
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Default 12-12-2013, 22:07 | posts: 33 | Location: Norway

Quote:
Originally Posted by sykozis View Post
aluminum heatsink + adhesive tape = bad

Find the Enzotech copper VRM heatsinks.
Its thermal glue though, but yeah, I'll see if I can find some copper ones, but I want to be able to screw them down
   
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Default 12-12-2013, 22:42 | posts: 3,246 | Location: Lebanon

You're in Europe. Try to get your hands on Alpenfohn VRM & VRAM heatsinks. Those are nuts. Also, if you find some Fujipoly thermal pads, that would be great.
   
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