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Is Nvidia futureproof atm?
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RighteousRami
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Smile Is Nvidia futureproof atm? - 11-09-2013, 00:19 | posts: 182 | Location: Australia

Hey guys, wanting to upgrade my graphics card in the next few months.

I am a bit confused why people would go with Nvidia cards in future at the moment if this whole Mantle thing is going to be utilized by alot of developers.

Yes i do know all developers will use it, but BF4 like it or not is a huge game which would apparently benefit from from being processed using the mantle API.

I am not going to get a new card until at least the R290 has a non-reference cooler as i hate high thermals. Or if im feeling adventurous try and watercool it myself (have only used a H80i on my CPU haha)

Have a 660ti sli setup and i am noticing the 2GB memory holding me back in my triple screen setup lately. 3GB is also exceeded by BF4 on a tri screen setup iv'e seen somewhere.

Nvidia may need to start putting SPU's on their cards so that they can utilize mantle. No Direct X update is going to do exactly what Mantle will do to work with the hardware as closely. Also it will break up everything too much if they try that imo.

I would buy a 780ti if it had 4GB of RAM probably if Mantle doesn't turn out to be more widely adopted.

So..... I don't want to go with AMD but if anyone has any thought on the topic, cool.
   
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inkarnat3
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Default 11-09-2013, 02:11 | posts: 22 | Location: Cleveland, Oh (Parma)

If I were you and the timeframe of "a couple of months" puts you anywhere near February, I would wait until the spring release of cards.

The little I know or understand about Mantle gives me zero indication that it is "going to take off". I can't predict the future any better than the next man, but it is honestly a bad thing if Nvidia and AMD both go down separate paths with ideas such as Mantle. All we end up with is a strong divide between games that are "The way it's meant to be played" and whatever AMD calls their dealio. Doesn't mean this won't happen, but I'll buy into it only when it becomes the standard....

From my perspective, trusting AMD to do anything with drivers is a fools game. Yes they have gotten better, but I won't purchase a card that requires optimization to not run like utter crap in a game. It hasn't even been 6 months since they got their act together. No thanks. You can entice me with a game bundle and a few hundred less dollars, but I will take something that works better all around any day of the week.

I just bought a pair of 780TI's, but trust me, I'm not a fan boy and my judgment isn't skewed. The cards I just bought could absolutely be faster and I wish they had more memory. With that said, when it came to spending my money the AMD R290X had a lot of little asterisk's to go along with it. Thankfully they pushed NVidia to drop prices, include a game bundle and release the 780TI. Competition is great! But I happily paid more for something that isn't a leaf blower / electric heater and I can't complain about the overall build quality, performance and price. I paid a little more, but I got a little more (and I don't mean performance with that statement).

As far as future proofing, it depends on what you are looking to do in the near future. If you are on the cutting edge of 4k displays, triple monitors and throw the word 3D next to either of those, then nothing short of a couple thousand dollars of video cards will get you to "Playable, but yearning for more". 5760x1080 is about 3/4's the resolution of a 4k display and I can whole heartedly say that you need to spend cash and lower your expectations if you want to game at those resolutions. 1 1080P screen, you have a lot of options to run "max settings".

I have 2 of the "fastest gaming card available" and my setup can easily push the limit of "oh yeah, can't do that". So "future proof" isn't exactly something I'm worried about at the moment.....I'm still chasing the dream!

--Matt
   
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munwaal
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Default 11-09-2013, 02:56 | posts: 6

Personally, it would take a lot for me to switch back to AMD. I've just installed a second GTX 770 and it has seriously impressed me. I game at 1080p and can run anything at max settings. I have no driver issues whatsoever. For me, everything just works with NVidia. Can't say I've heard the same about AMD.

Just because a game supports Mantle, doesn't mean it's going to run like crap on NVidia hardware. Going over to AMD may introduce a whole new set of problems.

I'm staying green for the foreseeable future.

PS: I'm not a fan boy. I've had plenty of AMD/ATI and NVidia cards over my many years of gaming.
   
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Fox2232
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Default 11-09-2013, 09:12 | posts: 1,544 | Location: EU, CZ, Brno

Quote:
Originally Posted by munwaal View Post
Personally, it would take a lot for me to switch back to AMD. I've just installed a second GTX 770 and it has seriously impressed me. I game at 1080p and can run anything at max settings. I have no driver issues whatsoever. For me, everything just works with NVidia. Can't say I've heard the same about AMD.

Just because a game supports Mantle, doesn't mean it's going to run like crap on NVidia hardware. Going over to AMD may introduce a whole new set of problems.

I'm staying green for the foreseeable future.

PS: I'm not a fan boy. I've had plenty of AMD/ATI and NVidia cards over my many years of gaming.
As for Drivers, Lot of people have no issues on both sides.
But both nV/AMD Driver sections of this forum will disagree that each side is fool proof.

As for Mantle. I do not know if AMD delivers what they promise, but DirectX is hitting overhead wall and games will not look much better on it that they already do.
That is where mantle goes in. AMD did little sad presentation with planet Core analogy with GCN. But truth is it's not build around GCN. It's layer cake and bot nV and AMD has to make proper driver separately to behave based on render calls from API.

They like to call mantle low level api close to HW. Truth is, it's just like DirectX therefore usable by intel/nVidia. And it differs in overhead which should allow more complicated effects, scenery or bit better performance.
And it will at least decrease CPU requirements.
But switching 2x 770 for anything else on both sides is waste of money for single 1080p screen.
Yes at end of next year 2GB vram may become very limiting factor for new games. But then we will have 20nm GPUs and whole different performance per watt.
   
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Default 11-09-2013, 09:42 | posts: 3,298 | Location: Lebanon

Guys, if you haven't extensively tried the newest AMD drivers, then don't judge.
   
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Violentum
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Default 11-09-2013, 10:43 | posts: 326 | Location: CANADA

Quote:
Originally Posted by RighteousRami View Post
Hey guys, wanting to upgrade my graphics card in the next few months.

I am a bit confused why people would go with Nvidia cards in future at the moment if this whole Mantle thing is going to be utilized by alot of developers.

Yes i do know all developers will use it, but BF4 like it or not is a huge game which would apparently benefit from from being processed using the mantle API.

I am not going to get a new card until at least the R290 has a non-reference cooler as i hate high thermals. Or if im feeling adventurous try and watercool it myself (have only used a H80i on my CPU haha)

Have a 660ti sli setup and i am noticing the 2GB memory holding me back in my triple screen setup lately. 3GB is also exceeded by BF4 on a tri screen setup iv'e seen somewhere.

Nvidia may need to start putting SPU's on their cards so that they can utilize mantle. No Direct X update is going to do exactly what Mantle will do to work with the hardware as closely. Also it will break up everything too much if they try that imo.

I would buy a 780ti if it had 4GB of RAM probably if Mantle doesn't turn out to be more widely adopted.

So..... I don't want to go with AMD but if anyone has any thought on the topic, cool.
Have you ever heard the term "Glide" Well in a nut shell that was 3dfx's Mantle. It lasted for a few years and a few games kicked @ss using it. But that was about it. I wouldn't get your hair in a bun over Mantle...
   
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Fox2232
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Default 11-09-2013, 11:09 | posts: 1,544 | Location: EU, CZ, Brno

Quote:
Originally Posted by Violentum View Post
Have you ever heard the term "Glide" Well in a nut shell that was 3dfx's Mantle. It lasted for a few years and a few games kicked @ss using it. But that was about it. I wouldn't get your hair in a bun over Mantle...
Many of us used several 3dfx adapters. "heard" means not know anything.
back then in 1995 when it got developed and 1996 released tere was no standardization at all in HW implementation of routines for OpenGL/DirectX across manufacturers. There were overrides for features in each game to make it work without glitches on different HW.
It was chaos into which 3dfx came bringing little more instability and it lived for quite few years. It dies for simple reason, DirectX evolved gave something new. OpenGL evolved too. 3dfx library has not brought much inovation to table.

Back then CPU not bottlenecking GPUs as much as now. And better GPUs gave adequate performance improvement.
Now you can see games not getting more fps even if you lower resolution as we are at wall caused by DirectX (number of elements is usually not affected by resolution).
Mantle has simply completely different reason behind and it is sound. 3dfx was just about getting it's share in market in chaotic times.

As I wrote, we do not know if AMD delivers what promised. But if they do, DirectX graphics will in 2 years sit at similar place as now, while Mantle API gets drastic improvement over it.
   
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Loophole35
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Default 11-09-2013, 12:14 | posts: 5,417 | Location: FLA,USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by yasamoka View Post
Guys, if you haven't extensively tried the newest AMD drivers, then don't judge.
Last drivers I had were on my 6950 which I sold a month and a half ago I think I was using 13.6. Anyways the drivers were stable for the most part aside from skyrim still being broken and very low GPU usage in AC3 (I suspect game engine on this one as sli has negative scaling). But my biggest gripe with AMD's driver set is CCC that is a colossal disaster IMO, Nvidia control panel is much more intuitive and easier to use.
   
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Violentum
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Default 11-09-2013, 12:29 | posts: 326 | Location: CANADA

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Originally Posted by Fox2232 View Post
Many of us used several 3dfx adapters. "heard" means not know anything.
back then in 1995 when it got developed and 1996 released tere was no standardization at all in HW implementation of routines for OpenGL/DirectX across manufacturers. There were overrides for features in each game to make it work without glitches on different HW.
It was chaos into which 3dfx came bringing little more instability and it lived for quite few years. It dies for simple reason, DirectX evolved gave something new. OpenGL evolved too. 3dfx library has not brought much inovation to table.

Back then CPU not bottlenecking GPUs as much as now. And better GPUs gave adequate performance improvement.
Now you can see games not getting more fps even if you lower resolution as we are at wall caused by DirectX (number of elements is usually not affected by resolution).
Mantle has simply completely different reason behind and it is sound. 3dfx was just about getting it's share in market in chaotic times.

As I wrote, we do not know if AMD delivers what promised. But if they do, DirectX graphics will in 2 years sit at similar place as now, while Mantle API gets drastic improvement over it.
What a pile of bull! If you have been following PC gaming history there is one thing that repeats its self time and time again. Every time a company tries to release a technology or API that is specific to there own hardware it has failed every single time or not lasted, or taken off as intended. Here are but a few examples:

GLIDE
EAX
Dedicated PhysX
Mantle?

But hey prove me wrong...
   
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harkinsteven
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Default 11-09-2013, 12:50 | posts: 2,266 | Location: Ireland

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Originally Posted by Violentum View Post
What a pile of bull! If you have been following PC gaming history there is one thing that repeats its self time and time again. Every time a company tries to release a technology or API that is specific to there own hardware it has failed every single time or not lasted, or taken off as intended. Here are but a few examples:

GLIDE
EAX
Dedicated PhysX
Mantle?

But hey prove me wrong...
DirectX has lasted. But that's maybe not the best example.

Last edited by harkinsteven; 11-09-2013 at 12:57.
   
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Default 11-09-2013, 13:32 | posts: 1,224 | Location: UK

I wouldn't worry about either AMD or nVidia.
   
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inkarnat3
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Default 11-09-2013, 14:03 | posts: 22 | Location: Cleveland, Oh (Parma)

Quote:
Originally Posted by yasamoka View Post
Guys, if you haven't extensively tried the newest AMD drivers, then don't judge.
Honestly, not trying to bicker, but you do not need to have first hand experience with AMD's products to get a good idea of how messed up their drivers were prior to 2013. There are many trusted review sites that paint a clear picture. The micro stuttering and frame time latency issues have been WELL documented and for the most part fixed, depending on what games you refer to. The way I understand it, they are fixed on a game by game basis. So if a particular game has not been optimized, your mileage varies, sometimes substantially. I do have a good friend who went down the AMD road and he has often expressed concerns / issues, but in general he loves his graphics card. In the mean time, he reaffirms why I stick with Nvidia....

From my POV and just my opinion, AMD has a hard time getting the little things right. Because of this they have to add value and can't charge what Nvidia charges. If they could, they would, trust me. Last I checked, AMD doesn't run a charity!

I feel that AMD has to add value by offering a price lower than the competition and then throwing an enticing gaming bundle with it. Instead of choosing AMD based solely on the merits of its card vs the competition most people wind up saying "That is $XXX worth of games, it is a little cheaper and it benchmarks very similar to Nvidia's XXXX card." I'm not saying that bundles don't add value for either camp and that getting more for you money isn't a good thing. I'm just not one for sacrifice. Let's face it, the game bundle is always brought into the decision when comparing AMD vs Nvidia. You either don't have the games and want them and it adds value or you have no use for the games and wish they sold a cheaper version with no bundle (if you really want the AMD card).

Even the launch of the R290X couldn't go off without a hitch. Issues with retails samples not performing like review samples, all of which require a fix by what? A driver! So I'm not trying to be naive and bash AMD and call them trash like a fanboy / troll. I will just say that the facts and reviews that I read on a daily basis from tech sites has helped me form an opinion and educate me as to where to spend my hard earned money.

Getting back on topic, AMD's body of work in the software department isn't giving me the impression that Mantle will be a huge success. It more or less sounds like a way to "game the system" and distance themselves from apples to apples comparisons to their competition. Fix Direct X or come up with another true standard by which others can make software and hardware for. Proprietary things always have a funny way of becoming their own worst enemy...

--Matt

Last edited by inkarnat3; 11-09-2013 at 14:05.
   
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---TK---
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Default 11-09-2013, 14:15 | posts: 18,706 | Location: New Jersey, USA

nvidia is no more future proof than amd. the stronger cards you buy, the longer they will be relevant in the near future.
   
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Default 11-09-2013, 14:19 | posts: 4,263 | Location: Serbia, NS

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Originally Posted by ---TK--- View Post
nvidia is no more future proof than amd. the stronger cards you buy, the longer they will be relevant in the near future.
Especially when you don't know when it's time upgrade a GPU. It has to be right timing to last you longer.
   
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Default 11-09-2013, 14:30 | posts: 1,994 | Location: Sault Ste. Marie Ont. CA

NOTHING is future proof.
   
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Default 11-09-2013, 15:03 | posts: 10,545 | Location: United kingdom

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Originally Posted by ESlik View Post
NOTHING is future proof.
PSU is until it breaks
   
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---TK---
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Default 11-09-2013, 15:05 | posts: 18,706 | Location: New Jersey, USA

my psu has a 7 year warranty with 4.5 years left thats about as future proof I can get
   
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Loophole35
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Default 11-09-2013, 15:34 | posts: 5,417 | Location: FLA,USA

Computer case?
   
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Default 11-09-2013, 15:38 | posts: 1,994 | Location: Sault Ste. Marie Ont. CA

I suppose it depends on how far into the "future" future proof means. Near future might be the better term.
   
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Default 11-09-2013, 16:16 | posts: 3,298 | Location: Lebanon

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkarnat3 View Post
Honestly, not trying to bicker, but you do not need to have first hand experience with AMD's products to get a good idea of how messed up their drivers were prior to 2013. There are many trusted review sites that paint a clear picture. The micro stuttering and frame time latency issues have been WELL documented and for the most part fixed, depending on what games you refer to. The way I understand it, they are fixed on a game by game basis. So if a particular game has not been optimized, your mileage varies, sometimes substantially.
No, frame pacing is a general solution that works for every DX11 game (up to 1600p for 7000 series and up to R9-280X, and higher for R9-290(X)). Some games that might not play very nice (few) are targeted in drivers, that's what Nvidia is doing as well, I'm sure. You will never get 100% of games to work with something.

Quote:
From my POV and just my opinion, AMD has a hard time getting the little things right. Because of this they have to add value and can't charge what Nvidia charges. If they could, they would, trust me. Last I checked, AMD doesn't run a charity!
It's becoming more and more about brand name rather than driver reliability. People *feeling* more comfortable with having Nvidia GPUs. If we're going to be basing GPU purchases off of gut feelings, then we're most likely going to be ripped off at some point. VSync, which is basically the only way to get a tear-free and smooth experience at a constant FPS (pre G-Sync), was broken for many at 600 series release. Even now some suffer from V-Sync issues. If the surefire way of making a game smoother fails to work, then I have no guarantee of running all my games smoothly. That would be irritating.

Quote:
I feel that AMD has to add value by offering a price lower than the competition and then throwing an enticing gaming bundle with it.
The release of the R9-290X made Nvidia drop the GTX 780's price down from $650 to $500, release the GTX 780 Ti, and toss in a sick game bundle: Batman: Arkham Origins, Splinter Cell: Blacklist, Assassin's Creed IV: Black Flags.


Quote:
Instead of choosing AMD based solely on the merits of its card vs the competition most people wind up saying "That is $XXX worth of games, it is a little cheaper and it benchmarks very similar to Nvidia's XXXX card." I'm not saying that bundles don't add value for either camp and that getting more for you money isn't a good thing. I'm just not one for sacrifice. Let's face it, the game bundle is always brought into the decision when comparing AMD vs Nvidia. You either don't have the games and want them and it adds value or you have no use for the games and wish they sold a cheaper version with no bundle (if you really want the AMD card).
Or in the case of 7970 vs. 680, the AMD card is also faster at higher resolutions, has 3GB of VRAM, higher memory bandwidth, scales better with CrossFire vs. SLi, and has better compute. And is $100 cheaper. And I get sick AAA games.

Quote:
Even the launch of the R290X couldn't go off without a hitch.
Like the GTX680 release? Mythical card at the time. Out of stock everywhere.

Quote:
Getting back on topic, AMD's body of work in the software department isn't giving me the impression that Mantle will be a huge success. It more or less sounds like a way to "game the system" and distance themselves from apples to apples comparisons to their competition. Fix Direct X or come up with another true standard by which others can make software and hardware for. Proprietary things always have a funny way of becoming their own worst enemy...
We'll see how Mantle goes. I'm not optimistic about splitting the market in half if Nvidia hacks up its own low-level API too.

Last edited by yasamoka; 11-09-2013 at 23:49.
   
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Default 11-09-2013, 16:23 | posts: 10,545 | Location: United kingdom

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Originally Posted by ---TK--- View Post
my psu has a 7 year warranty with 4.5 years left thats about as future proof I can get
Yeah i think i have about 5.5 years left, thats good enough i guess. I bet the darn thing breaks when the warranty runs out after all that time, typical
   
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Default 11-09-2013, 16:46 | posts: 5,417 | Location: FLA,USA

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Originally Posted by Veteran View Post
Yeah i think i have about 5.5 years left, thats good enough i guess. I bet the darn thing breaks when the warranty runs out after all that time, typical
Still that would be 7 years out if the PSU that's pretty good in my book.
   
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Default 11-09-2013, 17:23 | posts: 5,945 | Location: Wolverhampton/United Kingdom

I would say at the moment its far too hard to decide who is future proof.

Nvidia is planning the release of Maxwell GTX800 series at the end of the first quarter next year (I still think they will push it back again to the end of the year though)

We also don't know how well AMD's Mantle will work, more games are supporting it now as well which is a VERY good sign. But still nobody knows how it will perform, it very well could catapult AMD's 7000, and R7 and R9 series (Any GCN core) past any of Nvidia's GPU's. AMD has chosen some very strong claims with it saying that Mantle will ridicule even the GTXTITAN in games that use it.

We also have no idea on how G-SYNC will perform, how much monitors will cost, will it be tied down to Nvidia cards or licensed out for AMD to buy and use?

At this point in time if you REALLY need a new GPU and you have the money then go for the 780Ti no questions asked it is a beast of a card. But with aftermarket coolers coming for the R9 290 and 290X the temperature issue could very well be sorted and we could see overclocked 290 and 290X meeting or beating the 780Ti.
   
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Fox2232
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Default 11-09-2013, 17:37 | posts: 1,544 | Location: EU, CZ, Brno

Quote:
Originally Posted by Violentum View Post
What a pile of bull! If you have been following PC gaming history there is one thing that repeats its self time and time again. Every time a company tries to release a technology or API that is specific to there own hardware it has failed every single time or not lasted, or taken off as intended. Here are but a few examples:

GLIDE
EAX
Dedicated PhysX
Mantle?

But hey prove me wrong...
You got explanation on why glide died.
As for EAX, it was never HW related. That is why technology got sold later as "software licence" for other sound card manufacturers. (1st generation of cards had HW capable to accelerate it" all cards made later used CPU power for that.
Dedicated physX ... it could have run on CPU all effects as it can today. Thing is nVidia will not allow it nor allow to use more than one thread. (they reassured everyone about sdk 3.xx and it's ability to completely utilize CPU)
Do you actually remember time of those dedicated cards? Here in europe they came at higher price than high end GPUs, because they were meant for scientific purposes too. It never got off due to extreme price while giving little more clutter, but nice rigid body physics.

And you still has not got it? Mantle is not locked to GCN HW. OpenGL is not locked to specific HW too. DirectX is only graphical library locked to software platform, but is still not locked to single HW platform.
intel/nV can get in and implement support same way as they get in OpenGL, OpenCL or DirectX.

It's same as telling all prehistoric species died out. Therefore mankind is going same way. "Press Panic Button and Run!" (please, learn to make decisions based on understanding of cause. Then you will not compare bugs with apples.)

DirectX is main gaming platform, do you know how much more you can get from it than you are already getting?
Demoscene proved where High level APIs drag us every year.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oPpcSZa3NE
If you are able to cut overhead you can put this to 59KB single executable without additional resources. But now this takes great coding skills because if you used standard DirectX development tools to do that you would end up with beefy code where 98% would not work towards rendering stuff but doing something else not related to it.
   
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Veteran
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Default 11-09-2013, 17:51 | posts: 10,545 | Location: United kingdom

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loophole35 View Post
Still that would be 7 years out if the PSU that's pretty good in my book.
Yeah your right.
   
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