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Ethic-wise, has AMD done anything wrong?
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Espionage724
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Default Ethic-wise, has AMD done anything wrong? - 11-04-2013, 19:54 | posts: 1,307 | Location: Charleroi, PA

I have a brand-preference towards AMD mostly because I don't approve of most of the "shenanigans" NVIDIA and Intel pulled. However, I've heard of very little on AMD's side. I also like AMD's "open" approach with software, instead of more proprietary options.

So I'm curious, has AMD pulled any publicly-known shenanigans?

As for some examples of these shenanigans (do feel free to correct or add information and more examples if I'm wrong please):

NVIDIA
- Going out of their way to disable Hybrid PhysX (reverse gravity)
- "Tier 0" Program (Origin PC)
- Keeping CPU-accelerated PhysX limited (x87)
- Linux driver cripple to match Windows (Basemosaic)
- Limiting SLI only to Intel-based motherboards
- Silently dropping Hybrid SLI support
- Crysis 2's DX11 patch delayed to arrive around the same time as the GTX580
- Restricted use of Anti-Aliasing with Batman: Arkham Asylum on AMD/ATI hardware

Intel
- Intentionally restrict 10-user conference calls on Skype on non-Intel processors
- Don't approve of people improving their graphics drivers/pointing out flaws with their graphics driver (their advertised Vertex Shader 3.0 support on their older GMA chips is bull, and when a group I'm with made modified drivers to fix it to an extent, Intel threatened to sue)
- "Cripple AMD" compiler "feature"

AMD
- Restricting the use of audio over non-certified HDMI adapters (could be a HDCP thing, not 100% sure on this)
- Cheating on benchmarks (no source)

Last edited by Espionage724; 11-07-2013 at 20:04.
   
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Default 11-04-2013, 20:00 | posts: 18,515 | Location: New Jersey, USA

Released 290x with inadequate stock fan. Not shenanigans but not very smart.
   
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Default 11-04-2013, 20:07 | posts: 24,038 | Location: NZ

Recycling old video cards, i.e. 7xxx----->2xx

Both camps do it every few years, but with Nvidia it's just expected.
AMD has more of a reputation to uphold, by stooping to the same low level they just look like complete hypocrites, not to mention losing a lot of public sympathy.

Oh, AMD's version of 3D Vision is pretty shyt too, since it uses proprietary hardware and 3rd party drivers which can be hard to find.

Last edited by Pill Monster; 11-04-2013 at 20:14.
   
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Default 11-04-2013, 20:14 | posts: 4,774 | Location: Washington DC

They were also caught cheating on 3DMark benchmarks a while back.

edit: I guess technically that was ATI but still
   
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Default 11-04-2013, 20:17 | posts: 5,378 | Location: FLA,USA

990FX chipset supports SLI the reason old AMD chipsets were not SLI compliant was AMD did not want to buy the license. There were nvidia chipset AMD motherboards that supported SLI my friend has one with a 965BE and 570 SLI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nhlkoho View Post
They were also caught cheating on 3DMark benchmarks a while back.

edit: I guess technically that was ATI but still
Don't they still do that (disable tesslation and watch your score skyrocket)?
   
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Default 11-04-2013, 20:24 | posts: 1,469 | Location: Moscow, Russia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Espionage724 View Post
I also like AMD's "open" approach with software, instead of more proprietary options.
Can you describe in details what do you mean by that?
   
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Default 11-04-2013, 20:24 | posts: 3,995 | Location: Australia

On the Nvidia side of things, you forgot about the restriction of Directx 10.1 support in titles since Nvidia hardware at the time only supported Directx 10. Directx 10.1 gave a distinct performance advantage to AMD. A prime example of this is the dropping of Directx 10.1 support from the original Bioshock (an Nvidia title).
   
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Default 11-04-2013, 20:31 | posts: 1,307 | Location: Charleroi, PA

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbk1969 View Post
Can you describe in details what do you mean by that?
AMD from what I've seen promotes the use of OpenCL, and TressFX in-particular uses DirectCompute (both OpenCL and DirectCompute usable on AMD and NVIDIA hardware, along with the ability for CPU-acceleration where applicable).

NVIDIA on the other hand seems to only promote the use of CUDA, and Tegra on the Android-side (both only usable on NVIDIA hardware).
   
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Default 11-04-2013, 20:34 | posts: 24,038 | Location: NZ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loophole35 View Post
990FX chipset supports SLI the reason old AMD chipsets were not SLI compliant was AMD did not want to buy the license. There were nvidia chipset AMD motherboards that supported SLI my friend has one with a 965BE and 570 SLI.
Those Nvidia SLI chipsets were made by Nvidia, not AMD.

Nvidia was a huge player in the mobo chipset industry until late 2000's. Did you ever heard the name nForce? That's Nvidia's mobo chipset.

The last platform they released was the nForce9, by that time their boards were ****e...a far cry from the mighty nForce 2 and nForce 4 platforms..

AMD didn't start making motherboards until about 2007/8/9...I can't remember exactly the year,

Last edited by Pill Monster; 11-04-2013 at 20:40.
   
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Default 11-04-2013, 20:41 | posts: 4,774 | Location: Washington DC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Espionage724 View Post
NVIDIA on the other hand seems to only promote the use of CUDA, and Tegra on the Android-side (both only usable on NVIDIA hardware).
How is this different from what AMD is doing with Mantle?
   
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Default 11-04-2013, 20:44 | posts: 24,038 | Location: NZ

Quote:
Originally Posted by nhlkoho View Post
How is this different from what AMD is doing with Mantle?
I don't think Mantle is propriety, I believe Nvidia can use it also.....however I could def be wrong that's just what I heard.

To be really honest I haven't been interested in Mantle, so I know sweet fa about it. lol
   
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Default 11-04-2013, 20:46 | posts: 3,255 | Location: Lebanon

I'd say perhaps the main difference is that developers (allegedly) requested such a low-level API. Such an API has to be architecture-dependent by definition.
   
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Default 11-04-2013, 20:48 | posts: 4,774 | Location: Washington DC

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pill Monster View Post
I don't think Mantle is propriety, I believe Nvidia can use it also.....however I could def be wrong that's just what I heard.

To be really honest I haven't been interested in Mantle, so I know sweet fa about it. lol
Same thing with CUDA. Nvidia has been open to allow AMD to use the technology. AMD refused.
   
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Default 11-04-2013, 21:10 | posts: 5,378 | Location: FLA,USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pill Monster View Post
Those Nvidia SLI chipsets were made by Nvidia, not AMD.

Nvidia was a huge player in the mobo chipset industry until late 2000's. Did you ever heard the name nForce? That's Nvidia's mobo chipset.

The last platform they released was the nForce9, by that time their boards were ****e...a far cry from the mighty nForce 2 and nForce 4 platforms..

AMD didn't start making motherboards until about 2007/8/9...I can't remember exactly the year,
That's what the last part of my post stated. My 790FX chipset did not support SLI but I could have got a nForce board if I wanted to go SLI. My friend has one.
   
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Default 11-04-2013, 21:14 | posts: 3,995 | Location: Australia

Comparing CUDA and Mantle is a little different. AMD would have had to pay Nvidia to use CUDA, and CUDA isn't revolutionary, it's supplementary (to OpenCL etc). On the other hand, Mantle is revolutionary, and on top of that it is also open/going to be open, so you can't really compare the two.
   
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Default 11-04-2013, 21:16 | posts: 1,307 | Location: Charleroi, PA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loophole35 View Post
That's what the last part of my post stated. My 790FX chipset did not support SLI but I could have got a nForce board if I wanted to go SLI. My friend has one.
The AMD motherboard I have (ASRock 970 Extreme3) advertises AMD Crossfire compatibility only, with mentions from other people of no SLI support.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nhlkoho View Post
Same thing with CUDA. Nvidia has been open to allow AMD to use the technology. AMD refused.
NVIDIA may have offered to allow AMD's use of it, but at a price.

To my knowledge, there hasn't been any information as to whether it would cost other vendors to use Mantle. If AMD insists on a cost, then it could be similar to CUDA.
   
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Default 11-04-2013, 21:17 | posts: 24,038 | Location: NZ

Quote:
Originally Posted by nhlkoho View Post
Same thing with CUDA. Nvidia has been open to allow AMD to use the technology. AMD refused.
I have a feeling Nvidia would make AMD pay dearly though, just like AMD had to pay Nvidia for SLI "certification" on AMD chipsets.

Without the "certification" AMD boards couldn't run SLI (without hax )


When will these corporations learn that the propriety road does not work, it never has....OK maybe with Apple but they are in there own world.

They have some dream where if they can just come up with that one magical device that only they posses, e.g. PhysX, e.g, SLI. e.g, Gay Sync.... - it will somehow turn brand apathetic consumers into legions of loyal followers (like Apple) lol

All it does is make life really difficult for us....like with cellphone carriers.
   
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Default 11-04-2013, 21:25 | posts: 2,914 | Location: Tampa Bay, FL

Yes they have, its unethical to not have released Steamroller on AM3+ yet, and to leave us hanging by keeping the whole thing quiet.

Last edited by DSparil; 11-04-2013 at 21:35.
   
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Default 11-04-2013, 21:28 | posts: 16,488 | Location: US East Coast

Quote:
Originally Posted by Espionage724 View Post
I have a brand-preference towards AMD mostly because I don't approve of most of the "shenanigans" NVIDIA and Intel pulled. However, I've heard of very little on AMD's side. I also like AMD's "open" approach with software, instead of more proprietary options.

So I'm curious, has AMD pulled any publicly-known shenanigans?

As for some examples of these shenanigans (do feel free to correct or add information and more examples if I'm wrong please):

NVIDIA
- Going out of their way to disable Hybrid PhysX (reverse gravity)
- "Tier 0" Program (Origin PC)
- Intentionally-crippled CPU-accelerated PhysX (x87)
- Linux driver cripple to match Windows (Basemosaic)
- Limiting SLI only to Intel-based motherboards
- Silently dropping Hybrid SLI support
- Crysis 2's DX11 patch delayed to arrive around the same time as the GTX580
- Restricted use of Anti-Aliasing with Batman: Arkham Asylum on AMD/ATI hardware

Intel
- Intentionally restrict 10-user conference calls on Skype on non-Intel processors
- Don't approve of people improving their graphics drivers/pointing out flaws with their graphics driver (their advertised Vertex Shader 3.0 support on their older GMA chips is bull, and when a group I'm with made modified drivers to fix it to an extent, Intel threatened to sue)
- "Cripple AMD" compiler "feature"

AMD
- Restricting the use of audio over non-certified HDMI adapters (could be a HDCP thing, not 100% sure on this)


I bolded the parts that are wrong.

NVidia had nothing to do with PhysX using x87. Ageia developed PhysX using x87 (knowing it was deprecated and lacked a licensing requirement), then sold PhysX to NVidia. NVidia has reportedly been working on updating PhysX to bring it up to date with currently supported instruction sets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nhlkoho View Post
They were also caught cheating on 3DMark benchmarks a while back.

edit: I guess technically that was ATI but still
NVidia has been caught doing the same thing. It's nothing new.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pill Monster View Post
I don't think Mantle is propriety, I believe Nvidia can use it also.....however I could def be wrong that's just what I heard.

To be really honest I haven't been interested in Mantle, so I know sweet fa about it. lol
AMD stated at the Hawaii GPU14 event that Mantle is not proprietary and that NVidia is free to implement it on their GPUs if they wish.


   
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Default 11-04-2013, 21:55 | posts: 24,038 | Location: NZ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loophole35 View Post
That's what the last part of my post stated. My 790FX chipset did not support SLI but I could have got a nForce board if I wanted to go SLI. My friend has one.
Oh right I see wat u mean. It was well before the SLI proprietary thing happened though.
Nvidia could not pull that stunt while they were in the motherboard business as they relied on AMD to proved CPU support on Nvidia chipsets.

After Nvidia started supplying GPU's for Intel, the dynamic duo realized they shared a common bond; a mutual hate of AMD. That's when things got really, really, nasty.

Intel publicly said they wanted to see AMD die, SLI became proprietary on Intel motherboards.
Nvidia would not allow SLI on AMD platforms...later amended to "certification required", Intel had paid OEM's millions and millions to keep AMD CPU's out of enterprise systems.....it goes on and on.

AMD's CPU division was already struggling and all Intel/Nvidia wanted was for AMD's GPU side to go the same way. They really tried to shut AMD out of both the GPU and CPU market.

Last edited by Pill Monster; 11-04-2013 at 22:00.
   
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Default 11-04-2013, 22:27 | posts: 24,038 | Location: NZ

Quote:
Originally Posted by sykozis View Post
[/B]




AMD stated at the Hawaii GPU14 event that Mantle is not proprietary and that NVidia is free to implement it on their GPUs if they wish.
OK, thanks...
   
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Default 11-04-2013, 22:57 | posts: 1,469 | Location: Moscow, Russia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Espionage724 View Post
AMD from what I've seen promotes the use of OpenCL, and TressFX in-particular uses DirectCompute (both OpenCL and DirectCompute usable on AMD and NVIDIA hardware, along with the ability for CPU-acceleration where applicable).

NVIDIA on the other hand seems to only promote the use of CUDA, and Tegra on the Android-side (both only usable on NVIDIA hardware).
DirectCompute is part of DirectX.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia
OpenCL is an open standard maintained by the non-profit technology consortium Khronos Group. It has been adopted by Apple, Intel, Qualcomm, Advanced Micro Devices (AMD), Nvidia, Altera, Samsung, Vivante and ARM Holdings.
NVidia does support OpenCL in their drivers.

Last edited by mbk1969; 11-04-2013 at 23:17.
   
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Default 11-04-2013, 23:02 | posts: 18,515 | Location: New Jersey, USA

did not amd drop support for hybrid physx with newer drivers?
   
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Default 11-04-2013, 23:07 | posts: 1,469 | Location: Moscow, Russia

Is there sense at all to discuss ethic of two business companies?



Edit: And what is
Quote:
Originally Posted by Espionage724
"Cripple AMD" compiler "feature"

Last edited by mbk1969; 11-04-2013 at 23:17.
   
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Espionage724
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Default 11-04-2013, 23:17 | posts: 1,307 | Location: Charleroi, PA

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbk1969 View Post
DirectCompute is part of DirectX.

"OpenCL is an open standard maintained by the non-profit technology consortium Khronos Group. It has been adopted by Apple, Intel, Qualcomm, Advanced Micro Devices (AMD), Nvidia, Altera, Samsung, Vivante and ARM Holdings." (Wikipedia) NVidia does support OpenCL in their drivers.
I realize this. The point I was trying to make though is that AMD tends to use less-restrictive tech that works on a variety of hardware I suppose, as opposed to NVIDIA's our-tech-our-GPUs-only approach.

Lets take Tegra for example. It's advertised as being able to do better "effects" in games on Android. Games designed for Tegra offer things such as sparks, "jello water", and shadows, but note that none of that is innovative in any way. Other hardware that surpasses the processing power of a Tegra chip can't (by-default) do these effects either (you know; "Tegra is obviously the only chip that can handle additional effects" speech). File modifications can allow the use of Tegra effects on non-Tegra hardware though, which further proves how bs that tech is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ---TK--- View Post
did not amd drop support for hybrid physx with newer drivers?
Everything I read points at NVIDIA disabling it intentionally on their drivers only, not AMD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbk1969 View Post
Edit: And what is
http://www.agner.org/optimize/blog/read.php?i=49

Google "intel cripple amd" for more results about it though.

Last edited by Espionage724; 11-04-2013 at 23:22.
   
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