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AMD Mantle API (Low level hardware access)
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shadow_craft
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Default AMD Mantle API (Low level hardware access) - 09-26-2013, 04:56 | posts: 141 | Location: Halifax



Holy sheit

For all GCN GPU's

http://www.techspot.com/news/54134-a...rformance.html
   
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Default 09-26-2013, 15:58 | posts: 2,451 | Location: USA

Thats fine, but it has to be supported by the game engine.
   
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Default 09-26-2013, 16:06 | posts: 88 | Location: Finland

I predict that it's going to be buggy as hell

If it works and performs better than Titan with DirectX, then I'll consider buying R9 290X.
   
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The Mac
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Default 09-26-2013, 18:24 | posts: 2,451 | Location: USA

Youll be waiting a couple years before there any more than a handful of games using frostbite which so far is the only engine to use it.
   
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Default 09-26-2013, 18:33 | posts: 1,555 | Location: EU, CZ, Brno

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mac View Post
Youll be waiting a couple years before there any more than a handful of games using frostbite which so far is the only engine to use it.
Open platform, free for grabbing. Once BF4 confirms that it is viable and allows stunning effects a lot of developers just ports their code to it.
Otherwise at time they release game it will look obsolete.
And graphics sells most of games today, Look at crysis series. Nearly no story, boring development and lack of ideas. Big portions of game are so dull player just cloaks and skip fights.
And it still sold a lot of copies, people are purchasing better HW to play it maxed...
   
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Default 09-26-2013, 18:34 | posts: 852 | Location: Spain

Battlefield 4 is the only game I'm looking forward to play in the next 2-3 years, so I am very happy to hear we'll have the Mantle API on BF4 on my 7970's!
   
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The Mac
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Default 09-26-2013, 18:36 | posts: 2,451 | Location: USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox2232 View Post
Open platform, free for grabbing. Once BF4 confirms that it is viable and allows stunning effects a lot of developers just ports their code to it.
Otherwise at time they release game it will look obsolete.
And graphics sells most of games today, Look at crysis series. Nearly no story, boring development and lack of ideas. Big portions of game are so dull player just cloaks and skip fights.
And it still sold a lot of copies, people are purchasing better HW to play it maxed...
Not that simple, it must be supported by the GAME ENGINE. Not the game itself.

As mentioned, the only engine support as of december will be Frostbite.
   
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Default 09-26-2013, 19:41 | posts: 141 | Location: Halifax

I'm not sure why some of you are trying to down-play this

This has been the reason consoles have been able to pull off great looking games on lower-end hardware.

This is the answer PC gamers have been looking for.

It seems Mantle is very similar to the low-level api of the xbox one, meaning games should be able to get ported easily.

Mantle is open, meaning Nvidia/Intel can develop it for their hardware as well. (can't do that with PhysX)

Sure it will take some time to fully develop and be used with games, but BF4/Frostbite3 is a big step in that direction.

Besides, this is cross-platform. DirectX is NOT (M$ even likes to limit new DX on newer Windows only)
This should give another boost to Linux gaming hopefully.

The future is looking bright for PC Gamers
   
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Default 09-26-2013, 19:45 | posts: 245

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anvi View Post
I predict that it's going to be buggy as hell

If it works and performs better than Titan with DirectX, then I'll consider buying R9 290X.
Why would it be really buggy? Did you ever play any games with a 3dfx card that used Glide? Glide gave better performance than DX and OGL and was less buggy than DX and OGL back in the day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mac View Post
Youll be waiting a couple years before there any more than a handful of games using frostbite which so far is the only engine to use it.
Maybe, maybe not.
   
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Default 09-26-2013, 20:01 | posts: 2,451 | Location: USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow_craft View Post
I'm not sure why some of you are trying to down-play this

This has been the reason consoles have been able to pull off great looking games on lower-end hardware.

This is the answer PC gamers have been looking for.

It seems Mantle is very similar to the low-level api of the xbox one, meaning games should be able to get ported easily.

Mantle is open, meaning Nvidia/Intel can develop it for their hardware as well. (can't do that with PhysX)

Sure it will take some time to fully develop and be used with games, but BF4/Frostbite3 is a big step in that direction.

Besides, this is cross-platform. DirectX is NOT (M$ even likes to limit new DX on newer Windows only)
This should give another boost to Linux gaming hopefully.

The future is looking bright for PC Gamers
im not down trying to downplay it, i think its great if it gets widespread adoption

It just not going to be significant with this generation of cards due to the lead time on game development.
   
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Default 09-26-2013, 20:55 | posts: 11,516 | Location: Taganrog, Russia

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow_craft View Post
I'm not sure why some of you are trying to down-play this
Because it is a step back from universal vendor independent API to 3dfx Glide and S3 Metal era. Both of those low-level APIs and both GPU vendors who tried to rely on those API are "dead".

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow_craft View Post
Mantle is open, meaning Nvidia/Intel can develop it for their hardware as well. (can't do that with PhysX)
Does "low-level" term tell you anything? Even if it will be 100% open, it is seriously specific to AMD GPU architecture. So providing Mantle support on different hardware will be most likely ineffective, I am afraid that we can forget about seeing support for it in NV/Intel drivers.


Alexey Nicolaychuk aka Unwinder, RivaTuner creator
   
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Fox2232
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Default 09-26-2013, 21:08 | posts: 1,555 | Location: EU, CZ, Brno

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mac View Post
Not that simple, it must be supported by the GAME ENGINE. Not the game itself.

As mentioned, the only engine support as of december will be Frostbite.
This should have been clear enough: "developers just ports their code to it"
   
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The Mac
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Default 09-26-2013, 21:18 | posts: 2,451 | Location: USA

What dont you people get?

the ENGINE must support it, NOT the game.

for the most part game developers dont make the engine, someone else does.

For eample Unreal Engine 3: a buttload of games were made with that engine.

UE3 itself would need to be modified to support Mantle.

since dice/ea makes the Frosbite engine inhouse, they have a bit of a leg up with bf4

a great majority of delvelopers do not use inhouse engines.

My point is with a typical 4 year development cycle on games, anyone currently at least halfway through their development cycle will have no chance of using mantle.

Last edited by The Mac; 09-26-2013 at 21:25.
   
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Default 09-26-2013, 21:31 | posts: 1,555 | Location: EU, CZ, Brno

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unwinder View Post
Because it is a step back from universal vendor independent API to 3dfx Glide and S3 Metal era. Both of those low-level APIs and both GPU vendors who tried to rely on those API are "dead".



Does "low-level" term tell you anything? Even if it will be 100% open, it is seriously specific to AMD GPU architecture. So providing Mantle support on different hardware will be most likely ineffective, I am afraid that we can forget about seeing support for it in NV/Intel drivers.
Look at situation realistically:
Right now you can make something like ratio between number of rendered elements/effects on screen per transistor with hard barrier which you would have problems to pass.
We at PC market are hitting that wall right now, getting stronger GPU may not allow us to get much better results (immersive graphics).

If this API can move such barrier just 3 times farther and increase number of elements to that limit. Then AMD does not have to be afraid to die due not using "standard" which some shady based company like m$ imposed into PC world.

Because AMD may actually benefit from such improvement on platform like PS4/PC-linux (I believe Sony will be happy to get more players.). And so that means... PC either adapts to benefit which Consoles will have, or it will be behind just partially since AMD will have those Console games on PC too.

AMD claims are likely based on analysis of what they believe is potential blocked by DX API. M$ can try to block their drivers by not signing them, but that is all. And I guess that will not happen.

There are points where it's "evolve or die", not "stagnate to live". And if potential benefit is that high then evolution is way which will be supported by paying market.
   
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Default 09-26-2013, 21:53 | posts: 11,516 | Location: Taganrog, Russia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox2232 View Post
Look at situation realistically:
Right now you can make something like ratio between number of rendered elements/effects on screen per transistor with hard barrier which you would have problems to pass.
We at PC market are hitting that wall right now, getting stronger GPU may not allow us to get much better results (immersive graphics).

If this API can move such barrier just 3 times farther and increase number of elements to that limit. Then AMD does not have to be afraid to die due not using "standard" which some shady based company like m$ imposed into PC world.
Look at situation realistically as well. The comments about "standard" which some shady based company like m$ imposed into PC world are way too far from reality. Became a developer, then make a choice between targeting your product on roughly 1/3 of market (assuming that NV, AMD and Intel share equal parts of it, which is also far from reality) or on full market supporting "standard" which some shady based company like m$ imposed into PC world. Then you'll see it realistically. That's not an evolution for industry at all.


Alexey Nicolaychuk aka Unwinder, RivaTuner creator
   
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Fox2232
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Default 09-26-2013, 21:54 | posts: 1,555 | Location: EU, CZ, Brno

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mac View Post
a great majority of delvelopers do not use inhouse engines.

My point is with a typical 4 year development cycle on games, anyone currently at least halfway through their development cycle will have no chance of using mantle.
http://www.moddb.com/engines/top

Looks like there are in list around 330 engines which are used.
One can only guess which of those will adopt it after Frostbite.
Unity? id Tech? Or some of GPLs? Does it matter? Once some gets way ahead of others they will have to adapt or stay behind.
Most of games I own (over 250) have proprietary engines of engines like UE with heavy modifications.

Real thing is that game engines are created in matter of months, but game content, script testing are things which take years. And in that time Engine has to again evolve. Complete game code can be ported to other platform in few months. (like from PS3 to XBox360/PC = different on HW & API level)

Teams targeting consoles will not have hard time in making decision. On PC it will be hard decision at 1st because number of GPUs supported is now limited but with every year this will be much easier.
(Frostbite consist of guys who were not afraid to step in front and drop DX9 in BF3, To drop 32bit in BF4. To adopt new technology which gives edge over others. Their approach can't be called "Discouraging" because it's "Inspiring!".)

For those who target cross platform this is nobrainer.
   
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Default 09-26-2013, 21:54 | posts: 141 | Location: Halifax

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unwinder View Post
Because it is a step back from universal vendor independent API to 3dfx Glide and S3 Metal era. Both of those low-level APIs and both GPU vendors who tried to rely on those API are "dead".



Does "low-level" term tell you anything? Even if it will be 100% open, it is seriously specific to AMD GPU architecture. So providing Mantle support on different hardware will be most likely ineffective, I am afraid that we can forget about seeing support for it in NV/Intel drivers.
That would only be due to choices at NV/Intel

This is an open-low-level driver, something that can be implemented by anybody!

Unlike Glide, unlike PhysX

DirectX can only be used on 1 operating system, and while OpenGL is an alternative, Mantle seems to show much more promise.


Mantle + Linux Gaming is a dream I have now
   
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The Mac
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Default 09-26-2013, 21:59 | posts: 2,451 | Location: USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox2232 View Post
http://www.moddb.com/engines/top

Looks like there are in list around 330 engines which are used.
One can only guess which of those will adopt it after Frostbite.
Unity? id Tech? Or some of GPLs? Does it matter? Once some gets way ahead of others they will have to adapt or stay behind.
Most of games I own (over 250) have proprietary engines of engines like UE with heavy modifications.

Real thing is that game engines are created in matter of months, but game content, script testing are things which take years. And in that time Engine has to again evolve. Complete game code can be ported to other platform in few months. (like from PS3 to XBox360/PC = different on HW & API level)

Teams targeting consoles will not have hard time in making decision. On PC it will be hard decision at 1st because number of GPUs supported is now limited but with every year this will be much easier.
(Frostbite consist of guys who were not afraid to step in front and drop DX9 in BF3, To drop 32bit in BF4. To adopt new technology which gives edge over others. Their approach can't be called "Discouraging" because it's "Inspiring!".)

For those who target cross platform this is nobrainer.
ummm...this is what i was saying.

Its going to take at least a couple years for it to be adopted en-mass. Assuming it does at all. Delvelopers would have to make a choice to code for 2 render paths - DX, and Mantle. Thats a lot of man hours. In the mean time titles using it will be minimal

Also, Dice/EA will not be dropping dx for mantle.

Mantle will be an alternate rendering path, much like games that have a dx9/dx10 switch.

Last edited by The Mac; 09-26-2013 at 22:07.
   
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The Mac
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Default 09-26-2013, 22:06 | posts: 2,451 | Location: USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadow_craft View Post
That would only be due to choices at NV/Intel

This is an open-low-level driver, something that can be implemented by anybody!

Unlike Glide, unlike PhysX

DirectX can only be used on 1 operating system, and while OpenGL is an alternative, Mantle seems to show much more promise.


Mantle + Linux Gaming is a dream I have now
Manlte is an API.

no matter how low level it is, it still requires a driver.
   
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Default 09-26-2013, 22:10 | posts: 141 | Location: Halifax

Of course, but what I was trying to say is...

Mantle is cross-platform unlike DirectX

It's a step in the right direction IMO
   
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The Mac
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Default 09-26-2013, 22:14 | posts: 2,451 | Location: USA

this may be true, but it is not cross gpu at this point.

what unwinder is trying to say is it would require other gpu makers to fundamentally change their architecture in order to facilitate adoption.

There is almost a zero chance of this.

Given nvidia or intel will be resistant to change their architecture, the game developers will have to code 2 render paths with a massive increase in development costs, or lose an entire market segment by coding only for mantle.

not going to happen sinsce all sgments already use compatabe apis: OGL and dx

Last edited by The Mac; 09-26-2013 at 22:17.
   
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Default 09-26-2013, 22:21 | posts: 14,963 | Location: Glasgow

Unwinder isn't some silly little fanboy so you have to look at where this will lead to If he is right.

If this is very AMD hardware dependant then it it might provide little benefit to Nvidia users.
This would be the equivalent of Nvidia porting PhysX to OpenCL but only optimising it for Cuda.

The worry is that Nvidia could counter this with making their own version and it completely splits the PC market.

As for SteamOS support?
That would be hilarious, SteamOS becomes popular, but only when using EA's Origin, and who says EA would even support SteamOS?
   
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Default 09-26-2013, 22:23 | posts: 1,555 | Location: EU, CZ, Brno

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mac View Post
ummm...this is what i was saying.

Its going to take at least a couple years for it to be adopted en-mass. Assuming it does at all. Delvelopers would have to make a choice to code for 2 render paths - DX, and Mantle. Thats a lot of man hours. In the mean time titles using it will be minimal

Also, Dice/EA will not be dropping dx for mantle.

Mantle will be an alternate rendering path, much like games that have a dx9/dx10 switch.
Yes, you are correct, they will not drop DX, it would be suicidal. But instead they will get some of benefits of having alternative from which they can draw much more power for effects, particles, shadows, ...

If this is used on console then it may have same performance as PC with Titan. Then Games will simply have same graphics on PC and Consoles.

I don't think deployment is or was ever simple task, it takes months. Some games which are in development will not support it ever, some get release and add support later. And some will delay launch to get this working.

I see it realistically that we get some titles at next xmas. But till yesterday not many knew that Frostbite is cooking something with AMD.
How many others are doing same behind curtains?

I am not afraid that Mantle will fail it's much more likely that TruAudio will. Because it will work next year just on 3 GPUs and while it's nice feature which I'll love to use, it will not be selling point like: "Look, we have this running so good at 4k screen." or "We have implemented life like scatter lightning, translucency on skin and refraction to point that bubbling water is like real."

Last edited by Fox2232; 09-26-2013 at 22:26.
   
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Default 09-26-2013, 22:37 | posts: 141 | Location: Halifax

I dunno you guys... PS4 and Xbox One will take up a large share of the Gaming market

That gives Mantle a big edge IMO
   
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Default 09-26-2013, 22:52 | posts: 14,963 | Location: Glasgow

It only gives Mantle an edge if AMD is the only PC GPU vendor.

It might tempt some to switch as I'm one of them, but what happens if game sales go down due to hardcore Nvidia users boycotting or pirating those games.
   
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