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Frances
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Default Butterfly Labs - 05-22-2013, 11:32 | posts: 20

So are there any bitcoin miners here following the BFL controversy? The company's actions are getting pretty ridiculous. They having been holding onto customer's preorder money for nearly a year and the announcements are always so promising "we expect to ship at the end of the month" "we should be sending out the first units at the end of the week" (these are paraphrased.) Now the company has refunded a customer(against his will) for exchanging colorful dialogue with the COO Josh aka Inaba on the bitcointalk forums. The customer was definitely in the wrong for his choice of words but the way the COO responded was on the same level and he does not refrain from using personal insults to anyone who expresses doubts with the company. Josh's reasoning is that he is "Inaba" on bitcointalk and the COO on BFL's forums. I have worked retail for quite a while and if a customer was extremely rude to me and I go outside after clocking out and reciprocate the same behavior I would and should be fired. Just because he isn't on his company's website doesn't mean he is not representing his company. I have never seen such a shameless, blatant lack of professionalism.

Do you guys think BFL is a scam? I realize that they have had legitimate products in the past, but it looks they are no longer interested in conducting actual business. The manner in which they tried to silence the guy who profanely spoke out is scary as they essentially doxed him. According to the user, they linked his last name on his forum account to his order and then dropped the ban hammer. The current estimation is that there are 62,000 units pre-ordered. Seems like they went through a lot of trouble to make a point to those that would speak out. He also was an early adopter which means that his units were ordered before they doubled the price.

My opinion is that something is very very wrong at BFL. I really like bitcoin and the idea it represents, which is honest money. BFL may or may not be acting fraudulently, but they are for sure NOT being honest. They've known all along they have been no where near ready to ship but they make it seem like their products are incoming anytime just so that they can get more pre-orders. I understand that a company has all the right in the world to generate hype and buzz etc but for 11 months straight? Give me a break. I'm just glad I never made a pre-order, and I do feel sorry for those who have thousands of $$ loaned to these inarticulate creeps interest free as a "pre-order".

Scam or not?
   
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Veeshush
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Default 05-22-2013, 18:08 | posts: 788

You know, I never understood Bitcoins and then I googled BFL and found this:

Quote:
[]bluelite 2 points 24 days ago

Back in the California Gold Rush days (1850s), the ones making the money weren't the gold miners. Most prospectors lived impoverished lives, mining on speculation that one day they'd strike gold. Instead, the wealthy ones were the people selling supplies and services to the miners.

Expect the real winners here to be Butterfly Labs and others like them.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comm...dnt_buy_a_bfl/

And after reading that I think I finally understand it. It's like those MMORPG bots which sell game goods for real cash. The person selling the Bitcoins or the mining equipment is the only one actually making money.
   
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Default 05-22-2013, 19:31 | posts: 20

Mining actually started out on plain CPUs and eventually migrated to GPUs. I don't think Intel, AMD, or Nvidia had anything to do with designing bitcoin. Right now, because of the insane price that a bitcoin fetches it is becoming more like the old gold rushes but it is still very lucrative to mine. My GPUs(I have more than 2 7970s) make me around $600 per month and I pay $150 in electricity to run them. This is not bad at all as my 2nd 7970 was literally paid for by my gpus. I even paid in bitcoin. ASIC machines are and their manufacturers are certainly an interesting subject as well because they sought out to make a product to sell and are finding out that it is more profitable to keep them and mine for themselves. If you have a decent AMD gpu,I recommend giving mining a shot. You can still make money, which I realize may not continue for much longer.
   
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Default 05-23-2013, 04:06 | posts: 10,363 | Location: Not Minneapolis

No, we don't care about your dunning-krugerrands here.
   
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Default 05-23-2013, 11:23 | posts: 20

Quote:
Originally Posted by nm+ View Post
No, we don't care about your dunning-krugerrands here.
Thank you so much for the helpful information. I didn't even have to ask if you (you representing the collective whole) even cared! To repay your kindness, I will also share some unrequested information. You might have money to buy a computer that can run a game that people can remember (just a heads-up, there are stupid people about these forums that will tell you they don't care about things they don't know about or remember) if you paid the smallest amount of attention to anything economic. Bitcoin is now a billion dollar currency that is changing the way people buy and sell things onlines and offline. Did you know that is more money than some 3rd world countries GDP? Also that paypal is incorporating bitcoins into their system, so now even the most uneducated prole will know what they are?
   
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Default 05-23-2013, 12:00 | posts: 6,446 | Location: Chilling

By me, it would cost me more in electricity to mine the damn coins than what I would get in return.
   
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Default 05-23-2013, 12:45 | posts: 11,415 | Location: England

Bitcoin is an interesting idea. However, my guess is that because it sits outside normal currency rules and market/commercial/government control that eventually it will be closed down or brought under regulation somehow. Didn't bitcoin accounts get frozen recently or something(!) because the Japanese guy who invented it forgot to file some specific paperwork?

I'm not sure what to think of the specific issue in your OP but at the moment it's not looking good.
   
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Default 05-24-2013, 02:05 | posts: 395

Quote:
Originally Posted by hallryu View Post
Bitcoin is an interesting idea. However, my guess is that because it sits outside normal currency rules and market/commercial/government control that eventually it will be closed down or brought under regulation somehow. Didn't bitcoin accounts get frozen recently or something(!) because the Japanese guy who invented it forgot to file some specific paperwork?

I'm not sure what to think of the specific issue in your OP but at the moment it's not looking good.
What was frozen was some accounts from mtgox, the leading exchange market. You can't freeze bitcoin wallets. Your bitcoin wallet is in your pc/phone/tablet and only you can access it (or someone that has access to your the machine).

It will be very dificult to close it down. It's basically p2p money that enables you to make transfers around the world with little to no fees.
   
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Default 05-24-2013, 02:37 | posts: 2,024 | Location: NOVA

U.S. federal law bans all physical currency other than the U.S. dollar from being used or manufactured in the U.S.. (not related to counter-fitting, which is a separate issue.)

I suspect that soon the law will be updated to include virtual currency.

Then U.S. bitcoin users will simply become "criminals" (like the countless other categories of farcical victimless criminals that exist by U.S. law).

Remember, all you would-be criminals...
Don't even touch a small lobster if it comes out onto the beach.
And definitely don't collect rain water in a city that has water rights.

-scheherazade

Last edited by scheherazade; 05-24-2013 at 02:42.
   
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nm+
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Default 05-24-2013, 06:32 | posts: 10,363 | Location: Not Minneapolis

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frances View Post
Thank you so much for the helpful information. I didn't even have to ask if you (you representing the collective whole) even cared! To repay your kindness, I will also share some unrequested information. You might have money to buy a computer that can run a game that people can remember (just a heads-up, there are stupid people about these forums that will tell you they don't care about things they don't know about or remember) if you paid the smallest amount of attention to anything economic. Bitcoin is now a billion dollar currency that is changing the way people buy and sell things onlines and offline. Did you know that is more money than some 3rd world countries GDP? Also that paypal is incorporating bitcoins into their system, so now even the most uneducated prole will know what they are?
Yes, please tell me about how I can get scammed out of play money by some guy named pirate40. OR some guy who's avatar is patrick the starfish from a kid's tv show. Or that other guy. Of BFl, which IIRC (the scams are so hard too keep apart) is run by a convicted mail fraudster and is selling vaporware.
I am actually quite familiar with BTC and the various problems. For example, if BTC was the worlds currency, the block chain would be several TB. Also, I love hanging around the coffee shop for 10 minutes for my transaction to clear before I can buy ****.
Oh and, by teh way, thanks to that public blockchain, everyone knows you're buying drugs and child porn, which are really the only two things you can buy with BTC since Mezegrill went belly up.
Oh and the ****ing fork issues. And the inherent problem with deflationary currency. Also basing an economy on something where if someone loses a thumb drive money goes away and cannot be created.

Bitcoin will never be a real currency. It was designed as a proof of concept, not a real currency. You are wasting your time. Seriously, this is a currency where the main champion (ver) is a guy who did not understand that storing high explosives in an apartment, selling them by ebay, and them mailing them unlabeled via US mail was a bad thing. Oh and the previous guy (Bruce) who had a pending fraud case and is probably up in Thailand using the money he stole to buy underaged prostitutes.


Currency of the future folks.

/Use cosbycoins instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Chosen 1 View Post
It will be very dificult to close it down. It's basically p2p money that enables you to make transfers around the world with little to no fees.
Won't matter. If you can't pull out cash, silk road, the only real source of volume in BTC dies or switches to something else. Further, the block chain issues alone make this something unlikely to survive long.

edit: BTC has one major value: Being the largest source of hilarity on the internet. Cargo cult economy.

Last edited by nm+; 05-24-2013 at 06:38.
   
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Veeshush
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Default 05-24-2013, 07:34 | posts: 788

Quote:
Originally Posted by nm+ View Post
Yes, please tell me about how I can get scammed out of play money by some guy named pirate40. OR some guy who's avatar is patrick the starfish from a kid's tv show. Or that other guy. Of BFl, which IIRC (the scams are so hard too keep apart) is run by a convicted mail fraudster and is selling vaporware.
This forum really needs a reputation system for posts like these, that's one of the best descriptions of those types. Ahaha!
   
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The Chosen 1
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Default 05-24-2013, 14:12 | posts: 395

Quote:
Originally Posted by nm+ View Post
Yes, please tell me about how I can get scammed out of play money by some guy named pirate40. OR some guy who's avatar is patrick the starfish from a kid's tv show. Or that other guy. Of BFl, which IIRC (the scams are so hard too keep apart) is run by a convicted mail fraudster and is selling vaporware.
I am actually quite familiar with BTC and the various problems. For example, if BTC was the worlds currency, the block chain would be several TB. Also, I love hanging around the coffee shop for 10 minutes for my transaction to clear before I can buy ****.
Oh and, by teh way, thanks to that public blockchain, everyone knows you're buying drugs and child porn, which are really the only two things you can buy with BTC since Mezegrill went belly up.
Oh and the ****ing fork issues. And the inherent problem with deflationary currency. Also basing an economy on something where if someone loses a thumb drive money goes away and cannot be created.

Bitcoin will never be a real currency. It was designed as a proof of concept, not a real currency. You are wasting your time. Seriously, this is a currency where the main champion (ver) is a guy who did not understand that storing high explosives in an apartment, selling them by ebay, and them mailing them unlabeled via US mail was a bad thing. Oh and the previous guy (Bruce) who had a pending fraud case and is probably up in Thailand using the money he stole to buy underaged prostitutes.


Currency of the future folks.

/Use cosbycoins instead.


Won't matter. If you can't pull out cash, silk road, the only real source of volume in BTC dies or switches to something else. Further, the block chain issues alone make this something unlikely to survive long.

edit: BTC has one major value: Being the largest source of hilarity on the internet. Cargo cult economy.
BTC is nowhere near being the worlds currency for the next decades. For the time being it is a good alternative to international bank transfers, paypal and similar systems, being much faster and cheaper.

The blockchain size is something i already contemplated with it already being about 9GB in size but if it becomes something of a world currency it will probably be many many years from now when you have 1000TB hard drives. 30 years ago we had 10MB hard drives or something.
Fork issues have been fixed, it is very very hard to track down a transaction, certainly much harder than a bank transfer or else silk road customers would be in deep ****.
Also, real source of volume seems to be speculation, not silk road. People give silk road way to much credit, not that it is good ...
   
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Veeshush
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Default 05-24-2013, 22:00 | posts: 788

Rather than burning up all those cycles to "mine" funny money I'd wish instead there'd be some sort of Folding@home/Prime 95 thing that payed per workload. That'd make a lot more sense.
   
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nm+
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Default 05-25-2013, 04:04 | posts: 10,363 | Location: Not Minneapolis

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Chosen 1 View Post
BTC is nowhere near being the worlds currency for the next decades. For the time being it is a good alternative to international bank transfers, paypal and similar systems, being much faster and cheaper.
It would be if it wasn't for 10+ minute lags (not including the time trading out in and out) and massive volatility that means that what you put in may be quite different than what you get out. With a wire transfer you know the exchange rate to begin with.
Admittedly, this is the closest thing for a use of bitcoin.
Quote:
The blockchain size is something i already contemplated with it already being about 9GB in size but if it becomes something of a world currency it will probably be many many years from now when you have 1000TB hard drives. 30 years ago we had 10MB hard drives or something.
You're forgetting about the bandwidth needs. In any event, basing a currency on the idea that technology will be better in 20 years is crazy.

Quote:
Fork issues have been fixed, it is very very hard to track down a transaction, certainly much harder than a bank transfer or else silk road customers would be in deep ****.
Also, real source of volume seems to be speculation, not silk road. People give silk road way to much credit, not that it is good ...
Lot easier to trace than cash.

Oh and I forgot satoshi dice basically overwhelming the bitcoin processing system.

Also, the main way to cash out is with the Magic the Gathering Exchange. Can't make this **** up.
   
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The Chosen 1
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Default 05-25-2013, 11:25 | posts: 395

Quote:
Originally Posted by nm+ View Post
It would be if it wasn't for 10+ minute lags (not including the time trading out in and out) and massive volatility that means that what you put in may be quite different than what you get out. With a wire transfer you know the exchange rate to begin with.
Admittedly, this is the closest thing for a use of bitcoin.
It certainly is better than >2 days for wire transfers. And it only takes more than 10min if you make a transfer just after the last block is processed. If you want it to be in the next block, just include a small fee as incentive. I've made some small transfers without fees and most were done in less than 10min.
The volatility of the exchange rate isn't that bad if the transfer is fast and it's not like it is going to jump from 130 to 170. Last few days the difference between the maximum and minimum has been around 2 dollars (Being one bitcoin worth 125).

Quote:
You're forgetting about the bandwidth needs. In any event, basing a currency on the idea that technology will be better in 20 years is crazy.
Yes, it also apply to bandwidth. 15 years ago we had 56kbit modems... Now I can easily have 100Mbit speeds and my country is a littlle far behind in Europe.


Quote:
Lot easier to trace than cash.

Oh and I forgot satoshi dice basically overwhelming the bitcoin processing system.

Also, the main way to cash out is with the Magic the Gathering Exchange. Can't make this **** up.
But you can't send cash through mail without being able to trace it. I think bitcoin is a good alternative for online trading and international transfers and paper money is better for on site transactions.

Yes, the exchange started out as that but it is much better and secure nowadays (the original holder sold it to some company or whatever) and the consensus around the community is that it is the crippling factor in bitcoin since it is not the better exchange but has about 70% of the volume. You can still use other, better exchanges like bitstamp, btc-e etc...
   
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Default 05-25-2013, 16:55 | posts: 1,139 | Location: Indonesia

Quote:
Originally Posted by nm+ View Post
Yes, please tell me about how I can get scammed out of play money by some guy named pirate40. OR some guy who's avatar is patrick the starfish from a kid's tv show. Or that other guy. Of BFl, which IIRC (the scams are so hard too keep apart) is run by a convicted mail fraudster and is selling vaporware.
I am actually quite familiar with BTC and the various problems. For example, if BTC was the worlds currency, the block chain would be several TB. Also, I love hanging around the coffee shop for 10 minutes for my transaction to clear before I can buy ****.
Oh and, by teh way, thanks to that public blockchain, everyone knows you're buying drugs and child porn, which are really the only two things you can buy with BTC since Mezegrill went belly up.
Oh and the ****ing fork issues. And the inherent problem with deflationary currency. Also basing an economy on something where if someone loses a thumb drive money goes away and cannot be created.

Bitcoin will never be a real currency. It was designed as a proof of concept, not a real currency. You are wasting your time. Seriously, this is a currency where the main champion (ver) is a guy who did not understand that storing high explosives in an apartment, selling them by ebay, and them mailing them unlabeled via US mail was a bad thing. Oh and the previous guy (Bruce) who had a pending fraud case and is probably up in Thailand using the money he stole to buy underaged prostitutes.


Currency of the future folks.

/Use cosbycoins instead.


Won't matter. If you can't pull out cash, silk road, the only real source of volume in BTC dies or switches to something else. Further, the block chain issues alone make this something unlikely to survive long.

edit: BTC has one major value: Being the largest source of hilarity on the internet. Cargo cult economy.
Why this informative post must be the second after a useless one?
   
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Default 05-26-2013, 11:51 | posts: 182 | Location: Australia

Yeah i was looking at these last night. I hope they are legit....they may be having issues with producing them maybe?

If i hear that they start sending them out i may place an order for the $275 one as hey small investment that may go either way, not fussed if i waste the money. Lets say these things start being released, all you bitching abut power consumption can be quiet as it will be at most 26w max iv'e read which at Australian rates would cost about $92 to run per year, and that was judging for 30w.
   
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nm+
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Default 05-27-2013, 00:39 | posts: 10,363 | Location: Not Minneapolis

Quote:
Originally Posted by RighteousRami View Post
Yeah i was looking at these last night. I hope they are legit....they may be having issues with producing them maybe?

If i hear that they start sending them out i may place an order for the $275 one as hey small investment that may go either way, not fussed if i waste the money. Lets say these things start being released, all you bitching abut power consumption can be quiet as it will be at most 26w max iv'e read which at Australian rates would cost about $92 to run per year, and that was judging for 30w.
It is run by a guy convicted of mail fraud. How are people missing this?
https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/r...m/nr110114.htm

https://wyobiz.wy.gov/Business/Filin...42109060235081

Sonny Chris Vleisides is Chris Vleisides.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?to...784#msg1202784
Inaba is BFL_Josh, the spokesman for BFL.

Seriously, these guys promised a product to be delivered in October 2012. Even if they deliver something, I strongly suspect they won't meet the specs they have promised.

Last edited by nm+; 05-27-2013 at 00:41.
   
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TekkMarine
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Default 05-30-2013, 15:14 | posts: 939 | Location: United Kingdom

Quote:
Originally Posted by nm+ View Post
edit: BTC has one major value: Being the largest source of hilarity on the internet. Cargo cult economy.
haha, quite the statement.
You're right about one thing, it's pretty useful for buying illicit drugs. That's the only thing I use it for.
Plus the odd assassination every now and then.
(just kidding)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frances View Post
Scam or not?
Well judging by the article on wired, it mines 2BTC in 10 days which is the equivalent of about 173. So you could pay it off in about a months worth of mining, "IF" you get the machine right at the start of release. Its power consumption is pretty tiny 40-45 watts so keeping it on constantly isn't going to be a problem either.

Also when they finally do ship out I doubt there gonna get anywhere near 0.50 Bit-Pennies for two weeks worth of mining.

That being said, its a pretty interesting machine and i'm wondering if you could use for anything else other than BTC mining.

Wired Review

- Tekk

Last edited by TekkMarine; 05-30-2013 at 15:18.
   
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nm+
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Default 05-31-2013, 04:09 | posts: 10,363 | Location: Not Minneapolis

Quote:
Originally Posted by TekkMarine View Post
That being said, its a pretty interesting machine and i'm wondering if you could use for anything else other than BTC mining.
Nope, that is the uselessness of it. You get high efficiency from an ASIC because it is designed to do only one thing.
   
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PSU: Corsair
Default 05-31-2013, 11:20 | posts: 3,037 | Location: SoL 3

If it made you money why sell the unit, make a couple of hundred for yourself, sit back and watch the counter roll up and up. The emperor's New Clothes this one, and another in a long line of scams. Like selling candy to a baby, one sucker born every GH/s.
   
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