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EUOLA
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Default Computer diagnostic help - 05-04-2013, 07:03 | posts: 12

I need immediate help with these problems:

The processor was undervolted to 1.25v for 3 years at stock, everything else is at stock. It started having problems corrupting an entire windows install. Then I ran OCCT and the system bluescreened. I raised the voltage to 1.3 and finally reverted to the factory default (auto setting on the motherboard). However, OCCT errors still persist (OCCT reports error in the cpu cores) But then I ran memtest86+ and the memory failed after a few seconds.
At stock voltages, these problems don't show up during normal operation. Only in these benchmarks do they get flagged.

Here are my questions:

1. Right now I don't know if it is the MB or CPU or the ram that's bad. I don't have the means to test these parts on other systems.
2. I'm not sure if it is still a good idea to "replace" any of the three components at this time. They are over 3 years old, typically operating for long hours on any day. (but at stock and processor undervolted) Now, the motherboard is an AM3 board, so that goes with the CPU. But I'm not sure if getting new RAM is the right thing to do as I can't tell if the MB or processor is damaging the ram.
3. Just as a precaution, I want to know if this causes silent data corruption on all file transfers and files stored on active disks during this time. (like music/picture/video files) My uneducated belief on this tells me that there should be some data verification process going on under the hood the entire time? What concerns me is could there be corrupt files that can't get detected in any way because the files will simply play through the errors. (like any random 1s and 0s can be read as potential wav content)

Thank you.
   
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Pill Monster
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Default 05-04-2013, 07:57 | posts: 23,629 | Location: NZ

Quote:
Originally Posted by EUOLA View Post
I need immediate help with these problems:

The processor was undervolted to 1.25v for 3 years at stock, everything else is at stock. It started having problems corrupting an entire windows install. Then I ran OCCT and the system bluescreened. I raised the voltage to 1.3 and finally reverted to the factory default (auto setting on the motherboard). However, OCCT errors still persist (OCCT reports error in the cpu cores) But then I ran memtest86+ and the memory failed after a few seconds.
At stock voltages, these problems don't show up during normal operation. Only in these benchmarks do they get flagged.

Here are my questions:

1. Right now I don't know if it is the MB or CPU or the ram that's bad. I don't have the means to test these parts on other systems.
2. I'm not sure if it is still a good idea to "replace" any of the three components at this time. They are over 3 years old, typically operating for long hours on any day. (but at stock and processor undervolted) Now, the motherboard is an AM3 board, so that goes with the CPU. But I'm not sure if getting new RAM is the right thing to do as I can't tell if the MB or processor is damaging the ram.
3. Just as a precaution, I want to know if this causes silent data corruption on all file transfers and files stored on active disks during this time. (like music/picture/video files) My uneducated belief on this tells me that there should be some data verification process going on under the hood the entire time? What concerns me is could there be corrupt files that can't get detected in any way because the files will simply play through the errors. (like any random 1s and 0s can be read as potential wav content)

Thank you.
Your ram is bad, it happens.....often. What brand do you have?

Faulty ram can corrupt data being copied to or from disk but won't affect any files that aren't being accessed. Yes there is a verification proce3ss it's called CRC (Cyclic Redundancy Check).

Memory doesn't all go bad at once btw, it may only be a small area that is damaged and no errors will occur until data is moved to these bad cells.

Last edited by Pill Monster; 05-04-2013 at 08:03.
   
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EUOLA
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Default 05-04-2013, 08:06 | posts: 12

Gskill. I'm using 4 sticks, don't know if that makes them more prone to failing. (other than the higher base number for randomness)

Quote:
Faulty ram can corrupt data being copied to or from disk but won't affect any files that aren't being accessed.
Yes there is a verification proce3ss it's called CRC (Cyclic Redundancy Check).
Yes, I'm aware of CRC but I don't know if every file in a HDD has to be checked manually. (now it can be too late as there is no record of CRC values on creation kept)

So at this time should I just buy new ram or replace the entire trio? Because I'm worried that the motherboard or processor's memory controller could be causing the memory to fail. (don't know if undervolting only the CPU by 0.15v can negatively affect other components, remember reading something about a maximum voltage delta for i7s)
   
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Pill Monster
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Default 05-04-2013, 08:32 | posts: 23,629 | Location: NZ

Quote:
Originally Posted by EUOLA View Post
Gskill. I'm using 4 sticks, don't know if that makes them more prone to failing. (other than the higher base number for randomness)

Yes, I'm aware of CRC but I don't know if every file in a HDD has to be checked manually. (now it can be too late as there is no record of CRC values on creation kept)

So at this time should I just buy new ram or replace the entire trio? Because I'm worried that the motherboard or processor's memory controller could be causing the memory to fail. (don't know if undervolting only the CPU by 0.15v can negatively affect other components, remember reading something about a maximum voltage delta for i7s)
No the memory controller didn't damage it, nor did the CPU.
Even brand new memory can die - in fact last month I had to RMA 2 sticks that failed after 1 week. Just replace it.

And any files on your HDD should be fine
   
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EUOLA
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Default 05-04-2013, 09:35 | posts: 12

So undervolting the CPU is safe?
   
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Pill Monster
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Default 05-04-2013, 09:46 | posts: 23,629 | Location: NZ

Quote:
Originally Posted by EUOLA View Post
So undervolting the CPU is safe?
Yep.
   
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Default 05-04-2013, 09:48 | posts: 23,629 | Location: NZ

nvmc
   
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EUOLA
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Default 05-04-2013, 10:34 | posts: 12

Ok, so I've already ordered the new ram.

In general, what causes silent corruption of non-executable files that you wish to preserve? (like audio, pictures, video etc...) Is it safe to undervolt the cpu if your concern is to not get corrupt files? (BSODs and crashes while saving are not really silent)
   
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Pill Monster
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Default 05-04-2013, 11:04 | posts: 23,629 | Location: NZ

Quote:
Originally Posted by EUOLA View Post
Ok, so I've already ordered the new ram.

In general, what causes silent corruption of non-executable files that you wish to preserve? (like audio, pictures, video etc...) Is it safe to undervolt the cpu if your concern is to not get corrupt files? (BSODs and crashes while saving are not really silent)
Strong magnets can destroy HDD data, or a short circuit.

Best idea is to use an external drive for backing up important files and store it away somewhere like a closet when not in use. Hard drives last for years when looked after.

And undervolting the CPU is perfectly safe, it will not corrupt any data. BSOD's don't really cause data loss either.

Why are you so concerned might I ask?
   
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Hugo Sanchez
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Default 05-04-2013, 11:50 | posts: 87 | Location: US

I'm just curious about your RAM, you didn't mentioned freq. you run it at?

It is perfectly safe to undervolt CPU, HDD errors are mostly created by RAM or HDD itself. Would someone recommend undervolting your CPU? No. Best settings are usually settings set as "Auto" in BIOS. Anything other from that can cause effects that are not possible to measure with programs searching for errors.

But as is said, data corruption is very unlikely to happen from undervolting CPU. No matter how high voltage set by BIOS seems to you, there is always a REASON for that, just keep that on mind.

Your CPU IMC can cause RAM errors if you run it outside of specifications. Limit for your CPU is 1333Mhz, and in most cases, it is clever to run it at 1066Mhz even, no big gain or loss, and most adverse effects are gone. Same goes for any CPU, if IMC is specified for 1866Mhz for example, it is clever to run it bellow on conservative timings, it is not only because of hardware, but also because how software is written.

Last edited by Hugo Sanchez; 05-04-2013 at 11:53.
   
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Pill Monster
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Default 05-04-2013, 12:07 | posts: 23,629 | Location: NZ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugo Sanchez View Post
Limit for your CPU is 1333Mhz, and in most cases, it is clever to run it at 1066Mhz even, no big gain or loss, and most adverse effects are gone. Same goes for any CPU, if IMC is specified for 1866Mhz for example, it is clever to run it bellow on conservative timings, it is not only because of hardware, but also because how software is written.
You're spreading misinformation again, all AM3 Phenom II's support 1600mhz ram!

And no it is not clever to run DDR3 memory at a slower speed with tighter timings. This only applies to DDR/DDR2, if you're going to give advice at least stick to what you know.

And fill out your specs.

Last edited by Pill Monster; 05-04-2013 at 12:11.
   
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Hugo Sanchez
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Default 05-04-2013, 12:52 | posts: 87 | Location: US

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Originally Posted by Pill Monster View Post
You're spreading misinformation again, all AM3 Phenom II's support 1600mhz ram!

And no it is not clever to run DDR3 memory at a slower speed with tighter timings. This only applies to DDR/DDR2, if you're going to give advice at least stick to what you know.

And fill out your specs.
http://www.amd.com/us/products/deskt...-features.aspx

"Supports PC2-8500 (DDR2-1066); PC2-6400 (DDR2-800), PC2-5300 (DDR2-667), PC2-4200 (DDR2-533) or PC2-3200 (DDR2-400) SDRAM unbuffered DIMMs AM2+"

"Support for unregistered DIMMs up to PC2 8500(DDR2-1066MHz) and PC3 10600 (DDR3-1333MHz) AM3"

Without intention to go into unnecessary debate with you, can you explain how AMD spreading misinformation about it's own products?

Oh, and yes, it is more then clever to run RAM modules on conservative timings and frequency, well bellow specifications.
   
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mbk1969
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Default 05-04-2013, 13:23 | posts: 1,297 | Location: Moscow, Russia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pill Monster View Post
And no it is not clever to run DDR3 memory at a slower speed with tighter timings. This only applies to DDR/DDR2
Why?

Offtopic: I`ve started ADL wraper. There is a chance it will be ready till next weekend.
   
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Pill Monster
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Default 05-04-2013, 14:01 | posts: 23,629 | Location: NZ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugo Sanchez View Post
http://www.amd.com/us/products/deskt...-features.aspx

"Supports PC2-8500 (DDR2-1066); PC2-6400 (DDR2-800), PC2-5300 (DDR2-667), PC2-4200 (DDR2-533) or PC2-3200 (DDR2-400) SDRAM unbuffered DIMMs AM2+"

"Support for unregistered DIMMs up to PC2 8500(DDR2-1066MHz) and PC3 10600 (DDR3-1333MHz) AM3"

Without intention to go into unnecessary debate with you, can you explain how AMD spreading misinformation about it's own products?

Oh, and yes, it is more then clever to run RAM modules on conservative timings and frequency, well bellow specifications.
Right...next you'll be telling me that underclocking provides better performance than overclocking..

AM3 CPU's unoffically support 1600mhz memory through overclocking, this is why the CPU/NB can be raised to 2400mhz without increasing the voltage.
It's by design because in order to fully utilize DDR3 1600 the ideal NB speed is RAM /2 x3.

This is even stated in AMD's own Dragon overclocking guide published by AMD.

They can't list it on the website for liability reasons, just like they would never officially endorse overclocking Piledriver even though it is a major selling point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mbk1969 View Post
Why?

Offtopic: I`ve started ADL wraper. There is a chance it will be ready till next weekend.
Great thanks very much. I really appreciate it.

And to answer your question; because with DDR3 the latency is reduced more by increasing clock speed than by tightening the timings.

For example, 1600 CL9 has less latency than 1066 CL7 or 800 Clx.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/mem...ge-ddr3_3.html
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6372/m...gp-with-gskill

Last edited by Pill Monster; 05-04-2013 at 14:22.
   
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mbk1969
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Default 05-04-2013, 14:56 | posts: 1,297 | Location: Moscow, Russia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pill Monster View Post
And to answer your question; because with DDR3 the latency is reduced more by increasing clock speed than by tightening the timings.

For example, 1600 CL9 has less latency than 1066 CL7 or 800 Clx.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/mem...ge-ddr3_3.html
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6372/m...gp-with-gskill
Thanks for info.
   
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Default 05-04-2013, 15:09 | posts: 3,091 | Location: Lebanon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugo Sanchez View Post
Oh, and yes, it is more then clever to run RAM modules on conservative timings and frequency, well bellow specifications.
This is akin to a suggestion that if your CPU runs at a stock frequency of 3GHz, it is more than clever to run it at lower than 3GHz.

I mean...these are rated stock speeds a piece of hardware is rated to run at...meaning it is expected that 100% of the products released at these stock ratings should run at the stock speeds they are rated at. Failure to do so qualifies for an RMA, and the optimal ratio of performance / lifespan (if any decrease, only frequencies are being changed, no voltages) is achieved at that stock speed.

If one didn't know about overclocking and underclocking, the hardware is expected to run at its stock speeds.

I don't think this can be argued otherwise.
   
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Hugo Sanchez
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Default 05-04-2013, 15:42 | posts: 87 | Location: US

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Originally Posted by Pill Monster View Post
Right...next you'll be telling me that underclocking provides better performance than overclocking..

AM3 CPU's unoffically support 1600mhz memory through overclocking, this is why the CPU/NB can be raised to 2400mhz without increasing the voltage.
It's by design because in order to fully utilize DDR3 1600 the ideal NB speed is RAM /2 x3.

This is even stated in AMD's own Dragon overclocking guide published by AMD.

They can't list it on the website for liability reasons, just like they would never officially endorse overclocking Piledriver even though it is a major selling point.

Great thanks very much. I really appreciate it.

And to answer your question; because with DDR3 the latency is reduced more by increasing clock speed than by tightening the timings.

For example, 1600 CL9 has less latency than 1066 CL7 or 800 Clx.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/mem...ge-ddr3_3.html
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6372/m...gp-with-gskill
Ok, that makes sense, but again, officially supported speeds are up to 1333Mhz on Phenom II CPU's. If that logic is true, and it makes sense really, then for NB speed of 2000Mhz, best RAM speed is 1333Mhz with 9-9-9-24 standard timings. and for NB 2400 is 1600Mhz with standard timings of 9-9-9-27.

Anyways, it is not something that is observed in real word situations, but only in synthetic benchmarks, also, those links go for different CPU's and IMC (i7 with IGP used).

Anyways, for IMC on PII processors, u would use 1066Mhz with 7-7-7-20 timings, while on FX, i would use 1333Mhz with 9-9-9-24 timings, that gives best real world usage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yasamoka View Post
This is akin to a suggestion that if your CPU runs at a stock frequency of 3GHz, it is more than clever to run it at lower than 3GHz.

I mean...these are rated stock speeds a piece of hardware is rated to run at...meaning it is expected that 100% of the products released at these stock ratings should run at the stock speeds they are rated at. Failure to do so qualifies for an RMA, and the optimal ratio of performance / lifespan (if any decrease, only frequencies are being changed, no voltages) is achieved at that stock speed.

If one didn't know about overclocking and underclocking, the hardware is expected to run at its stock speeds.

I don't think this can be argued otherwise.
You can't apply same analogy for RAM. Because, even when modules are rated at one specification, is more important, at this time, for which specification IMC is best optimized, that's why, almost always, you will be better of with standard timings and frequency, and very often, with lower then specified.
   
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Pill Monster
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Default 05-04-2013, 15:58 | posts: 23,629 | Location: NZ

   
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Hugo Sanchez
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Default 05-04-2013, 17:23 | posts: 87 | Location: US

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Originally Posted by Pill Monster View Post
You must be 14, I'm not going to argue with kids on non relevant topics. Dop whatever you want. Cheers.

It is interesting to see people who thinks they know better than engineers who created products.

Last edited by Hugo Sanchez; 05-04-2013 at 17:25.
   
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EUOLA
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Default 05-04-2013, 17:47 | posts: 12

Ok serious problem now. Memtest goes through on single sticks. This makes me think that it's the motherboard and/or cpu that is dying, can't handle multiple sticks anymore.

Is there any way to isolate the actual problem?
   
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Hugo Sanchez
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Default 05-04-2013, 18:42 | posts: 87 | Location: US

Quote:
Originally Posted by EUOLA View Post
Ok serious problem now. Memtest goes through on single sticks. This makes me think that it's the motherboard and/or cpu that is dying, can't handle multiple sticks anymore.

Is there any way to isolate the actual problem?
Bring everything to default in BIOS (voltages etc.). I guess you tested it with different modules and ruled out RAM as problem.

If everything works fine with one module, try two, but set command rate to 2T.
   
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EUOLA
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Default 05-04-2013, 19:50 | posts: 12

They are already at stock.

So Memtest86+ says there was an error on bits 0002000.

Memtest 86 says the same thing.

I don't know what that means.
   
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Hugo Sanchez
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Default 05-04-2013, 21:01 | posts: 87 | Location: US

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Originally Posted by EUOLA View Post
They are already at stock.

So Memtest86+ says there was an error on bits 0002000.

Memtest 86 says the same thing.

I don't know what that means.
It means there is an error, i never run memtest, so idk.

You need to test one module at time, and you didn't gave us more information about what you did. It seems like a bad RAM, but it could easily be something else.

You said it is good with one module, so try the same with another one.
   
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EUOLA
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Default 05-05-2013, 05:01 | posts: 12

Ok, problems showing in 2 modules as well, it just took longer. This is impossible to diagnose at this point as my AM3 hardware is already off the market. Time for a new setup.
   
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