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High End Audiophile thread
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ROBSCIX
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Default High End Audiophile thread - 01-02-2013, 20:15 | posts: 16,175 | Location: Guru3D Audio Lab

Hey guys, this thread is meant for discussion on the higher end of audio and PC audio. We are talking about high end DAC's cables, amps, theory..etc.

So, feel free to discuss high end audio here.

Last edited by ROBSCIX; 01-02-2013 at 20:21.
   
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N0sferatU
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Default 01-02-2013, 21:48 | posts: 1,490 | Location: United States

first!!!

Love my "high end gear"

The headphones and my bass maker




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Default 01-02-2013, 23:52 | posts: 5,455 | Location: Michigan,usa

I been enjoying my Audio Technica A900X plugged into my Audio-GD NFB 12.0 Rev 2 for a while now. I been using The Filter setting 8X oversampling , Minimum phase apodising, Which sounds nice to my ears. Don't mind my key chain that's in the corner.


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Default 01-03-2013, 01:16 | posts: 9,769 | Location: UK

Cool, finally I can ask this...

I have been discussing with my brother why we found that FLAC rips didnt sound 'quite' as clear as CDs on his system.
(Oppo 105 BD/SACD player playing CDs vs USB hard drive FLAC files, Denon POA 6600 monoblocks, custom speaker build based on Mission 765 speakers, 12" woofers and Ribbon tweeters, with new home made silver interconnects which allowed us to notice the difference)

Its harder for me to test as I dont have a top quality CD player+DAC with a USB hard drive input. I may test FLAC vs WAV later though.
I have found other people online have experienced similar as we did on his system and FLAC vs WAV may be a worthwhile comparison.

The difference is very small, nearly everyone wouldnt care, but it adds an extra level of delight to the experience by giving a little more quiet detail on some high freq sounds.
It needs a very quiet room though.
My room isnt conducive to this as my PC makes low level air noise, my brothers room is silent.

Please dont let this derail the thread, its bound to be contentious.
But if anyone else has noticed it would be nice to know.

It wasnt placebo, we tested it a LOT on different disks (some dont expose a difference) and came to the conclusion its a real difference after we both agreed on each test.

Hope I dont get flac over this
   
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ROBSCIX
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Default 01-03-2013, 02:12 | posts: 16,175 | Location: Guru3D Audio Lab

IIRC, a CD is not a WAV, it is a *.CDA file. FLAC and *.Wav are bit for bit exact. If you are hearing differences, I would say they either have to do with decoding,timing or other outside forces.
Again, Wav and Flac are 1:1 exact, that has been proven time and again, provided the are of the same source.

Try Jplay, it is a high end player that loads files to memory before playing, such players are said to offer a bit more over standard players but YMMV.

You didn't mention what he was using for a DAC when using the USB disk based Flac. Might be down to the DAC differences...unless I am misunderstanding the setup.

Last edited by ROBSCIX; 01-03-2013 at 02:24.
   
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Nato.dbnz
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Default 01-03-2013, 02:15 | posts: 3,263 | Location: Auckland NZ

I wish I had a high-end CD player to test that theory. I have definitely heard the idea bounced around on a different forum. I personally do 99% of my listening from FLAC via JRiver Media Centre 18. I wouldn't change that for the sake of a marginal difference as the ease of making playlists, controlling via android device etc is just too great, but would still like to see some evidence one way or the other as to whether this is the case and why it might be.

My gut feeling is that it would be far too system dependent to make a blanket conclusion on the matter.
   
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ROBSCIX
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Default 01-03-2013, 02:45 | posts: 16,175 | Location: Guru3D Audio Lab

There is NO difference in the media files, decoding aside they are identical so the differences are elsewhere.
Tracking down and improving on those small differences only we hear in our system is part of this hobby is it not?
   
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Mufflore
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Default 01-03-2013, 03:44 | posts: 9,769 | Location: UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBSCIX View Post
IIRC, a CD is not a WAV, it is a *.CDA file. FLAC and *.Wav are bit for bit exact. If you are hearing differences, I would say they either have to do with decoding,timing or other outside forces.
Again, Wav and Flac are 1:1 exact, that has been proven time and again, provided the are of the same source.

Try Jplay, it is a high end player that loads files to memory before playing, such players are said to offer a bit more over standard players but YMMV.

You didn't mention what he was using for a DAC when using the USB disk based Flac. Might be down to the DAC differences...unless I am misunderstanding the setup.
I am under no illusion that FLAC, CDs and WAV present the same "data" to the DAC.
This may be related to the clock signal, I cant think of much else atm.

He is using the Oppo players USB input to read FLAC files from a USB hard drive, the same player to play the CDs.
I agree the data is identical, but something during the decoding of FLAC is making the difference because there is one.
It does sound like a jitter related issue, I've seen similar loss in high freq response/detail when using different cables for digital to my DAC, although not at this level (his kit pulls out the most incredible detail that I had never heard before).

Perhaps the clock signal isnt as clean when processing FLAC due to extra EM interference from the local processing??
Or perhaps due to fluctuations on the power supply to the clock, from the extra processing, or a mix of those?

Others have reported the same issue on other hardware, I can find links for you if you like?

I've asked my brother to try WAV files.

Btw, its not like a major or even a slight issue on the quality of the player, it is exemplary.
Its just a tiny difference, but it adds an extra level of delight and we are interested to find why it happens.
   
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Default 01-03-2013, 15:23 | posts: 144 | Location: Ghent, Belgium

A relative of mine presented me with a question which left me with my foot in my mouth: Whats is the advantage or disadvantage of FLAC over WAV?
The guy studies digital audio tech or something so he's really curious.

OT: Asus Essence STX - LittleDot MKII - Beyerdynamic DT990... Can I play?
Would love to make that a Asus Essence One - Beyer DT990 though.
   
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ROBSCIX
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Default 01-03-2013, 16:07 | posts: 16,175 | Location: Guru3D Audio Lab

That's and easy one: Flac offers higher compressions giving much smaller files. Wav is much larger for the exact same data.

Most I know that archive lossless audio, store it in Flac.
Flac and Wav are 1:1 bit identical when compared.

Hope that helps.
   
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ROBSCIX
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Default 01-03-2013, 16:10 | posts: 16,175 | Location: Guru3D Audio Lab

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mufflore View Post
I am under no illusion that FLAC, CDs and WAV present the same "data" to the DAC.
This may be related to the clock signal, I cant think of much else atm.

He is using the Oppo players USB input to read FLAC files from a USB hard drive, the same player to play the CDs.
I agree the data is identical, but something during the decoding of FLAC is making the difference because there is one.
It does sound like a jitter related issue, I've seen similar loss in high freq response/detail when using different cables for digital to my DAC, although not at this level (his kit pulls out the most incredible detail that I had never heard before).
Could be a few things in such a system, the USB quality, jitter of many types...etc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mufflore View Post
Perhaps the clock signal isnt as clean when processing FLAC due to extra EM interference from the local processing??
Or perhaps due to fluctuations on the power supply to the clock, from the extra processing, or a mix of those?

Others have reported the same issue on other hardware, I can find links for you if you like?
Clocking signal could be sloppy in that part of the circuit, it is hard to say without getting under the hood of the player with a scope and tracking down the issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mufflore View Post
I've asked my brother to try WAV files.

Btw, its not like a major or even a slight issue on the quality of the player, it is exemplary.
Its just a tiny difference, but it adds an extra level of delight and we are interested to find why it happens.
I think when you get to a certain level in audio, it is nothing but finding and eliminating or experimenting with those small differences.
   
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ROBSCIX
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Default 01-03-2013, 17:24 | posts: 16,175 | Location: Guru3D Audio Lab

The disk over hdd vs memory is debate and will never end.
OK,
Have any of you tried these so called "audiophile" software players?

I have been experiementing and talking with a few authors and found some interesting results.
Many of them will pull the files off the disk and load to ram first, for various reasons.
Many swear by these players, Im testing one right now and I like what I hear....alot!
I am testing Jplay, it is a demo/paid app that you canload into Foobar and it sounds really good. If you decide to give it a try let me know what you think.
Also, if any of you are using other types of these players, post some info and your results.

Last edited by ROBSCIX; 01-03-2013 at 17:28.
   
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Vandrende Pind
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Default 01-03-2013, 18:10 | posts: 1,178 | Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBSCIX View Post
The disk over hdd vs memory is debate and will never end.
OK,
Have any of you tried these so called "audiophile" software players?

I have been experiementing and talking with a few authors and found some interesting results.
Many of them will pull the files off the disk and load to ram first, for various reasons.
Many swear by these players, Im testing one right now and I like what I hear....alot!
I am testing Jplay, it is a demo/paid app that you canload into Foobar and it sounds really good. If you decide to give it a try let me know what you think.
Also, if any of you are using other types of these players, post some info and your results.
Yep, I've used jplay for foobar until the trial ran out. I'm not proud to admit it, but I thought it sounded better than normal foobar.
   
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RagDoll_Effect
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Default 01-03-2013, 19:02 | posts: 4,298 | Location: Australia

Well, this is my high end player and my mid end Receiver, multi channel Analogue Now, the high end player can play DVD Audio and Super Audio CD's. I also find that playing a bought from a Store CD, sounds extremely good I've made my own DVD audio discs through images and HD Audio Solo program. They are 24 bit 96khz 5.1 channel and I can hear the difference in quality, however playing a standard CD is still very good on this machine. I'm yet to play a real SACD, so I'm waiting for that.



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RagDoll.
   
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ROBSCIX
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Default 01-03-2013, 19:33 | posts: 16,175 | Location: Guru3D Audio Lab

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandrende Pind View Post
Yep, I've used jplay for foobar until the trial ran out. I'm not proud to admit it, but I thought it sounded better than normal foobar.
Yeah, it loads as a service, output plugin. From what I have heard it sounds pretty good also.
   
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Mufflore
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Default 01-03-2013, 19:35 | posts: 9,769 | Location: UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBSCIX View Post
The disk over hdd vs memory is debate and will never end.
OK,
Have any of you tried these so called "audiophile" software players?

I have been experiementing and talking with a few authors and found some interesting results.
Many of them will pull the files off the disk and load to ram first, for various reasons.
Many swear by these players, Im testing one right now and I like what I hear....alot!
I am testing Jplay, it is a demo/paid app that you canload into Foobar and it sounds really good. If you decide to give it a try let me know what you think.
Also, if any of you are using other types of these players, post some info and your results.
I'm just reading a review of JPlay and the authors comments fit very well with the experience we had.
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/jplay/1.html
Apart from using Kernel streaming, it apparently has a few selectable methods of using system ram and they also affect what you hear!

Also on page 4:
Quote:
Shutting down JRMC altogether and using JPlay's mini I heard further gains in transparency and low-level detail retrieval. Instruments and voices sounded a little more real and present while ambient cues were a tad more defined. I wouldn’t say the difference was huge—it certainly wasn’t as great as going from stock JRMC to JPlay’s plug-in—but an improvement nonetheless. Going FullScale Hibernate mode again upped the ante. Here was the absolute pinnacle in sound quality.
I suspect it reduces similar issues to those we experienced, but if true, I cant see how a PC can ever be as good as an EM noise controlled, top notch player with a stable clock.
Unless the dataflow and clock can be fully stabilised well away from the PC.

I'll be trying this, thanks for the headsup!

Last edited by Mufflore; 01-03-2013 at 19:38.
   
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ROBSCIX
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Default 01-03-2013, 20:07 | posts: 16,175 | Location: Guru3D Audio Lab

Post your impressions. I am checking it out right now.
   
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Mufflore
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Default 01-03-2013, 20:47 | posts: 9,769 | Location: UK

I've tested 1 track so far, Madonnas The Immaculate Collection, Rescue Me.
This is a QSound recording to give it a 3D effect.

(remember to disable any EQ when comparing to your favourite player, this doesnt have any)
Both players set to -18dB from full volume.

At the start of the song the thunderstorm and rain fill all the area in front of me, reaching up to the distance of my head on the right.
This sounds great with Foobar + WASAPI, but everything is just that bit clearer and the 3D immersion is greater using JPlay.
The rain especially is a lot clearer.

Havent tried anything else yet, but this is a pure win!

Forgot to say, this is using Jplaymini


Setting Buffersize to Directlink (press b 9 times), removes another layer of transparency, even more 3D!
The difference here is about the same as that comparing CD vs FLAC on my brothers system.

Man, this player is amazing.
But, if you run a firewall/HIPS that asks permission to do things, dont use hibernate mode before giving permissions otherwise it will lock your machine up.

Xtream Engine hangs the player on my system.
I have to stop and restart the JPlay service to get it working again.

Last edited by Mufflore; 01-03-2013 at 21:12.
   
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ROBSCIX
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Default 01-03-2013, 21:26 | posts: 16,175 | Location: Guru3D Audio Lab

I use it with Foobar.
So far I am very impressed.
   
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Nato.dbnz
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Default 01-03-2013, 22:06 | posts: 3,263 | Location: Auckland NZ

I've used a couple of players that use this feature. Channel-D Puremusic which runs on top of iTunes library on a MAC. Sound quality was a very obvious upgrade from iTunes.

I currently use JRiver MC18 on my media box which is also a very audiophile focussed program. It offers play from RAM however I have tested and it doesn't make any difference to me, however I should note my music library is stored on SSD in my music box.

I think JRiver is a well worthwhile investment, I use it for my music and movies and it's all controlled through my phone. Very handy, and it sounds great.
   
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Mufflore
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Default 01-03-2013, 22:27 | posts: 9,769 | Location: UK

My G*D, JPlay is amazing.
Everything I play has so much extra detail, currently on Abba and theres things I've never heard before, its such a crisp sound, stereo effects and imaging are phenomenal!

Phoned my brother and asked him to plug a laptop in and compare using this player to CD.
He is going to try WAV from a USB hard drive direct to the player, but is reluctant to use his laptop as he's busy, I'll convince him, it may take a week

I'm using these changes from default in JPlaymini:
Buffersize : Directlink
Engine : Beach
Memory : 1GB
Throttle : On

Flippin eck.
Get some silver cables and try.
   
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|-c2c-|Rom
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Default 01-03-2013, 23:25 | posts: 121 | Location: joliette,near Montreal,Canada

Just to have your impresion

Amp:Roksan Candy MKIII
CD :Roksan Candy
Speakers:ASW opus L-06
Inteconnect:QED Silver Spiral with wbt connector
Power cable Interlac
Speaker wire Atlas Equator 6n
Subwoofer laugh a JVC Wood cone serie sound really good for that brand

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ROBSCIX
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Default 01-03-2013, 23:38 | posts: 16,175 | Location: Guru3D Audio Lab

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mufflore View Post
My G*D, JPlay is amazing.
Everything I play has so much extra detail, currently on Abba and theres things I've never heard before, its such a crisp sound, stereo effects and imaging are phenomenal!

Phoned my brother and asked him to plug a laptop in and compare using this player to CD.
He is going to try WAV from a USB hard drive direct to the player, but is reluctant to use his laptop as he's busy, I'll convince him, it may take a week

I'm using these changes from default in JPlaymini:
Buffersize : Directlink
Engine : Beach
Memory : 1GB
Throttle : On

Flippin eck.
Get some silver cables and try.
You're welcome. Sounds pretty good here...the imaging and detail are excellent. Nice when you can push your gear with software and cheaper.
I tried the mini last night but I got it working with foobar today, making it easier to navigate songs. I haven't really messed with too many settings as of yet. Maybe tomorrow I will try some fine tuning.

Last edited by ROBSCIX; 01-03-2013 at 23:45.
   
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ROBSCIX
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Default 01-03-2013, 23:42 | posts: 16,175 | Location: Guru3D Audio Lab

Quote:
Originally Posted by |-c2c-|Rom View Post
Just to have your impresion

Amp:Roksan Candy MKIII
CD :Roksan Candy
Speakers:ASW opus L-06
Inteconnect:QED Siver Spiral with wbt connector
Power cable Interlac
Speaker wire Atlas Equator 6n
Subwoofer laugh a JVC Wood cone serie sound really good for that brand
Sounds cool, why don't you hook your PC up to that system.
   
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|-c2c-|Rom
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Default 01-03-2013, 23:53 | posts: 121 | Location: joliette,near Montreal,Canada

I cant my stereo is in the livingroom with my plasma tv.So i have buy the Logitech Z-623 2,1 THX.Sound very good for the price i only pay $135.00
   
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