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Mufflore
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Default 08-18-2012, 01:25 | posts: 9,776 | Location: UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by IanM View Post
How do you get to this conclusion based on the press release? because the press release says: "Studio-grade components, which include external digital-to-analog converters (DACs) that deliver 127dB signal-to-noise ratio?"

Why did they write external? I don't want to think the worst but I wonder if there is some smoke and mirrors here - just because there is a good component on the PCB doesn't prove it's doing anything meaningful. Of course I hope that there is no shenanigans going on and there is a true upgrade vs the Recon3D, but Creative don't have a reputation for honesty or great engineering.
The Recon3Ds DAC has 102dB SnR, the Z series is 127dB.
Different class of DAC, regardless where they put it.

Why are you worried if it is an external DAC?
   
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IanM
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Default 08-18-2012, 02:28 | posts: 14

I wouldn't have given it a second thought but for the previous discussion points I mentioned earlier i.e. that the SoundCore3D is what it is and can't be upgraded or bypassed, therefore the Z series might be no more impressive than a Recon3D - the same basic, relatively low quality signal from the SoundCore3D chip but passed through more expensive component(s) for no real benefit to the sound quality.

I have to say the above doesn't completely make sense to me and the assumption that SoundCore3D cannot be improved upon may be wrong. I also find it strange that you would design a system that outputs an analogue signal from a cheap chip integrated DAC, then convert it back to digital just so that you can pass it through another more expensive DAC. Inuitively it makes more sense that the SoundCore3D is being used only for the DSP, in which case Creative's marketing people should stop prattling on about 'quad-core' processing, but that's another issue.

I posted the question(s) in the hope that there is an electronics engineer/audio processing geek lurking who really understands how this works and can explain what's going on, and say which assumptions are right or wrong.

Last edited by IanM; 08-18-2012 at 02:56.
   
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Mufflore
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Default 08-18-2012, 02:48 | posts: 9,776 | Location: UK

The 3D sound processor is connected to a higher spec external DAC.
There is no converting to analogue and then back to digital.

ps I'm an electrical/electronic engineer and audio geek

Last edited by Mufflore; 08-18-2012 at 02:51.
   
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Anarion
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Default 08-18-2012, 10:24 | posts: 10,522 | Location: Finland

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mufflore View Post
The 3D sound processor is connected to a higher spec external DAC.
There is no converting to analogue and then back to digital.

ps I'm an electrical/electronic engineer and audio geek
Yeah, converting from the internal crap DAC->ADC->DAC would result in much worse quality than in Recon3D. They aren't stupid and would never do that since it makes zero sense.
   
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IanM
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Default 09-21-2012, 15:50 | posts: 14

found the link on another forum, but this Russian website has examined the ZxR and Z soundcards with the covers off. Photos and comments (in Russian) on the components.

http://personalaudio.ru/review/sound...i_zxr_iznutri/
   
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-Tj-
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Default 09-21-2012, 16:52 | posts: 5,669 | Location: Urban`Jungle

So its still a Recon3d thingy.. i presume no HW openAL and no ASIO just like recon3d?
   
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ROBSCIX
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Default 09-22-2012, 16:42 | posts: 16,129 | Location: Guru3D Audio Lab

The term external is used IMO to denote, they are not using the lower spec'd DAC on the Recon ship itself.
   
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Anarion
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Default 10-08-2012, 23:07 | posts: 10,522 | Location: Finland

So, when are these supposed to be available?
   
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Default 10-09-2012, 05:55 | posts: 281 | Location: Calif.

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Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
So, when are these supposed to be available?
Last I heard is December.
   
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Default 10-09-2012, 22:21 | posts: 152 | Location: Benghazi - Libya

I owned a recon3d pcie card, sold It and went with titanium hd and external amp for headphone, but I mis say the recon3d had a great positional audio, the zxr looking pretty sweet, but the dac is the core of the whole thing imo if it ain't good then the sound wouldn't be that good, am never repeating the mistake I made with the recon3d, and the disappointment i got in terms of sound quality. so my next upgrade would be the xonar phobus or the zxr based on upcoming reviews after few months, really dislike the volume knod thingy, very unoriginal clearly copying asus approach, they should have sticked with the bay one instead or at least a different design.
   
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ROBSCIX
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Default 10-10-2012, 02:13 | posts: 16,129 | Location: Guru3D Audio Lab

Actually the volume knob is not new to either company as it has been seen for a long time in the recording world.
   
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Anarion
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Default 10-11-2012, 17:34 | posts: 10,522 | Location: Finland

Quote:
Originally Posted by headoncollision View Post
I owned a recon3d pcie card, sold It and went with titanium hd and external amp for headphone, but I mis say the recon3d had a great positional audio, the zxr looking pretty sweet, but the dac is the core of the whole thing imo if it ain't good then the sound wouldn't be that good, am never repeating the mistake I made with the recon3d, and the disappointment i got in terms of sound quality. so my next upgrade would be the xonar phobus or the zxr based on upcoming reviews after few months, really dislike the volume knod thingy, very unoriginal clearly copying asus approach, they should have sticked with the bay one instead or at least a different design.
It has TI 6120A2 headphone amp, which definitely isn't crappy. It uses PCM1794 DAC for stereo out which isn't crappy either. This should good in terms of audio quality.
   
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Default 10-13-2012, 12:22 | posts: 146

does it will have 5.1 or 7.1 through the optical input?because i have x-fi titanium but i just cant activate in the control panel the surround sound when i watch movie on my desktop blu ray player and the sound via optical cable,i have only stereo.i heard that the creative was not buy the license for DTS.So will i have 5.1 DTS from my desktop blu ray player,wich is connected to my pc through optical cable?
   
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Anarion
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Default 10-13-2012, 19:24 | posts: 10,522 | Location: Finland

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Originally Posted by remicius View Post
does it will have 5.1 or 7.1 through the optical input?because i have x-fi titanium but i just cant activate in the control panel the surround sound when i watch movie on my desktop blu ray player and the sound via optical cable,i have only stereo.i heard that the creative was not buy the license for DTS.So will i have 5.1 DTS from my desktop blu ray player,wich is connected to my pc through optical cable?
ZxR does have optical input on the daughter board.
   
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Default 10-23-2012, 11:36 | posts: 4 | Location: muzulmánia

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Tj- View Post
So its still a Recon3d thingy.. i presume no HW openAL and no ASIO just like recon3d?
As far as i know, the "Creative Sound Core3D quad-core sound and voice processor" is nothing more than the newest incarnation(CA0132 on last years Core3D cards, CA0113 on 3rd party products like the Asrock Gameblaster) of their codec chip they have been using on low cost Creative cards(like the PCI-E X-fi Extreme Audios CA0110, and CA0106 in the golden days of Audigy LS and Live! 7.1 24 bit) since forever.

I was kind of shocked last year to find that Creative replaced their mid range EMU20K2 DSP powered Titanium X-fi cards with a glorified Extreme Audio with less fatures(they did add extra stuff in drivers though) and worse analog out quality.


They will undoubtedly fix some of Core3D-s flaws with the new series(maybe they redesigned their chip even), but we have to say good bye to any hardware acceleration features for the near future.

Last edited by cskamacska; 10-23-2012 at 11:55.
   
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GenClaymore
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Default 10-23-2012, 18:16 | posts: 5,297 | Location: Michigan,usa

There havent been a Hardware/Software openAL game in a while any way, it been mostly Xaudio2 and then some FMOD EX using titles. So we way past that line where hardware audio in games hasnt been used. We can have MS Xaudio2 to blame that on, as I don't like what Xaudio2 does to the sound. So I wished they stuck with openGL, but I guess all good things has to come to a end.
   
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Anarion
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Default 10-28-2012, 21:07 | posts: 10,522 | Location: Finland

I'd so hope that they would release these soon. I can't stand this integrated crap, the difference is staggering even when compared to my Galaxy S (which does have semi-decent DAC though).

EDIT:
It seems that when you select headphone when you plug this in, it changes things with this Realtek. It feels like some kind of amplification kicks in since volume level changes noticeably (funnily according to Realtek it has headphone amp) and the volume output is higher than in Forte line out (which isn't necessarily a good thing... though this has more play room with volume). But still, audio quality isn't anything to write home about. HD 595's when amped are just too loud.

Last edited by Anarion; 10-29-2012 at 11:26.
   
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-Tj-
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Default 10-28-2012, 21:54 | posts: 5,669 | Location: Urban`Jungle

@cskamacska

Thanks for the info

Quote:
Originally Posted by GenClaymore View Post
There havent been a Hardware/Software openAL game in a while any way, it been mostly Xaudio2 and then some FMOD EX using titles. So we way past that line where hardware audio in games hasnt been used. We can have MS Xaudio2 to blame that on, as I don't like what Xaudio2 does to the sound. So I wished they stuck with openGL, but I guess all good things has to come to a end.
True, but there are still some "older" games that have full openAL support, and if im not mistaken most U3E games (U4E will have it too, not 100% sure though).


I would be disappointed to see weaker or faked openAL by those games. Or forced to buy a ASIO2.0 SB just for occasional audio creation/production
   
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GenClaymore
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Default 10-28-2012, 23:05 | posts: 5,297 | Location: Michigan,usa

I know older games have it. But the Unreal engine 3 games that coming out are switching to Xaudio2. I have bunch of UE3 games that all uses Xaudio2 instead of openAL. The only game that installed that UE3 that has openAL is Unreal tourment 3. Borderlands 2 uses Xaudio2 and thats UE3.
   
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Anarion
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Default 10-28-2012, 23:29 | posts: 10,522 | Location: Finland

Quote:
Originally Posted by GenClaymore View Post
I know older games have it. But the Unreal engine 3 games that coming out are switching to Xaudio2. I have bunch of UE3 games that all uses Xaudio2 instead of openAL. The only game that installed that UE3 that has openAL is Unreal tourment 3. Borderlands 2 uses Xaudio2 and thats UE3.
Or Wwise. It seems to be pretty common now. BioWare switched to it in ME2 and used it in ME3 too. Codemasters used OpenAL in F1 2010 & 2011 but now they use Wwise too.

Technically it's pretty irrelevant whether or not the new cards have hardware or only software OpenAL support. They will have full EAX support up to 5. In my own test the hardware acceleration has made zero difference in terms of performance. You can do all the same things with software too than with hardware and since Creative pretty much owns the OpenAL (and EAX) so to speak, their software EAX is probably just as good since they don't have to emulate or mimic anything.

Last edited by Anarion; 10-28-2012 at 23:34.
   
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Default 10-29-2012, 02:45 | posts: 2,020 | Location: Sweden

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Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
It has TI 6120A2 headphone amp, which definitely isn't crappy. It uses PCM1794 DAC for stereo out which isn't crappy either. This should good in terms of audio quality.
RMAA shows that Recon3d has a poor frequency response.
   
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Anarion
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Default 10-29-2012, 10:10 | posts: 10,522 | Location: Finland

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RMAA shows that Recon3d has a poor frequency response.
And what it has to do with Z series?
   
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-Tj-
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Default 10-29-2012, 17:53 | posts: 5,669 | Location: Urban`Jungle

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by GenClaymore View Post
I know older games have it. But the Unreal engine 3 games that coming out are switching to Xaudio2. I have bunch of UE3 games that all uses Xaudio2 instead of openAL. The only game that installed that UE3 that has openAL is Unreal tourment 3. Borderlands 2 uses Xaudio2 and thats UE3.


Or Wwise. It seems to be pretty common now. BioWare switched to it in ME2 and used it in ME3 too. Codemasters used OpenAL in F1 2010 & 2011 but now they use Wwise too.

Technically it's pretty irrelevant whether or not the new cards have hardware or only software OpenAL support. They will have full EAX support up to 5. In my own test the hardware acceleration has made zero difference in terms of performance. You can do all the same things with software too than with hardware and since Creative pretty much owns the OpenAL (and EAX) so to speak, their software EAX is probably just as good since they don't have to emulate or mimic anything.
Ok all fine and dandy, but what about ASIO support, any news about that?
   
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Default 10-29-2012, 20:57 | posts: 205

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Tj- View Post
@cskamacska
I would be disappointed to see weaker or faked openAL by those games
what...?... like rapture3d?

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Tj- View Post
Ok all fine and dandy, but what about ASIO support, any news about that?
wasapi would do the trick, surely?
   
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-Tj-
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Default 10-29-2012, 21:25 | posts: 5,669 | Location: Urban`Jungle

Well rapture3d openAL is still better (if set right) then Xaudio2 or FMOD.


No, wasapi or ASIO4all is no go in Audio production software.. I guess i'll just stick with this X-FI if there is no ASIO support
   
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