Carmack not considering switching to Windows 8

[deltatux]

Originally Posted by sykozis

Doesn't matter how popular OpenGL is on small devices.... Good luck getting game devs to abandon DirectX on PC

The two largest mobile operating systems (Android and iOS) and consoles including the PS3 and the Wii all use OpenGL ES 2.0. OpenGL gaming is just on the rise. I don't believe that developers would abandon DirectX, but OpenGL may take the front seat moving forward seeing how many gaming platforms support it. Only Windows, XBOX 360 and Windows Phone uses DirectX, so the mobile market may turn the tide.

The Khronos Group announced OpenGL ES 3.0 and OpenGL 4.3 recently at SIGGRAPH. With OpenGL ES 3.0, this means that we will see DX10/11 graphics level games on cell phones and other gaming devices come 2013.

Originally Posted by GhostXL

Most of the situations I see around here isn't cost but, "I don't want to learn". There isn't even much to learn. That was the part I never understood.

Really? A lot of time, I see it as a cost issue and there are times like you said people just don't wanna learn, but most of the time, it's the cost...

deltatux

[sykozis]

OpenGL was the dominant graphics API for years until DirectX finally surpassed it.

[Yxskaft]

Originally Posted by chilly willy

i hope 11 lasts longer than 9 did. 11 has TONS of potential waiting to be tapped into. and next gen consoles, well xbox anyway, is most likely going to use it so we should start to see a lot better dx11 games in the near future.

Probably, but DX11 will be at least over 3 years old when the next-gen consoles come. We also have AMD and some developers whining about the current APIs' huge overhead sucking up performance.

This thread on Rage3d is 6 months old, but Bobvodka's (a dev) posts are about the PC's big disadvantage when it comes to draw calls...From the way he talks about it, the future looks pretty grim if there's no solution

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthre...3986186&page=3

DX11 is soon 3 years old, bring on DX12

[deltatux]

Originally Posted by sykozis

OpenGL was the dominant graphics API for years until DirectX finally surpassed it.

and with the changing conditions, OpenGL might be back to its once prominent position.

deltatux

[chilly willy]

Originally Posted by sykozis

Some of the "features" of Win8 are for users that have Windows based phones and/or tablets to accompany their desktops. Of course, they could do like previous versions and provide a way to remove those features.

i am aware. the fact is though those features are often a very odd fit on a stationary desktop or even an average user's laptop/netbook etc. I think the best way to go about it in full retail product would be to have 2 choices at installation. 1 for mobile devices(companion mode or something) and 1 for a standard desktop(basically updated windows 7). and in a desktop mode install if at a later date if u want to add or remove features found in the mobile version turn them on and when you restart they will be available.

I am going to be installing windows 8 on lots of devices when it comes out even if i dont like it just because if the customer wants something i can't deny them and expect a return customer. i like a lot of things in windows 8 but most of it just feels very out of place. im even fine with metro. i laughed when microsoft said they got rid of the start menu because everyone used taskbar pins but what they did was exponentially grow the start menu in the form of metro.

[sykozis]

Originally Posted by Yxskaft

Probably, but DX11 will be at least over 3 years old when the next-gen consoles come. We also have AMD and some developers whining about the current APIs' huge overhead sucking up performance.

This thread on Rage3d is 6 months old, but Bobvodka's (a dev) posts are about the PC's big disadvantage when it comes to draw calls...From the way he talks about it, the future looks pretty grim if there's no solution

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthre...3986186&page=3

DX11 is soon 3 years old, bring on DX12

The problem is, if a PC is limited to X number of draw calls...consoles will suffer the same or similar limitation, contrary to his claim. He claims that the next generation of consoles will outperform high-end PCs due to draw call limitations, but, as I said.... If PC is suffering from draw call limitations, consoles will as well. Of course, it's reasonable for higher draw call count to result in reduced framerate. The fewer steps necessary to reach the goal, the faster you'll get there.

This guy makes very few references to DirectX, but talks quite a bit about hardware limitations. If the limitation is hardware as he infers several times, consoles will suffer the same limitations. If the limitation is software, it can be circumvented by using a more efficient API.

[sykozis]

Originally Posted by chilly willy

i am aware. the fact is though those features are often a very odd fit on a stationary desktop or even an average user's laptop/netbook etc. I think the best way to go about it in full retail product would be to have 2 choices at installation. 1 for mobile devices(companion mode or something) and 1 for a standard desktop(basically updated windows 7). and in a desktop mode install if at a later date if u want to add or remove features found in the mobile version turn them on and when you restart they will be available.

Some of those features are for "syncing" the desktop to the mobile device. Leaving them off the desktop, would make the "syncing" quite a bit more difficult.

[chispy]

Originally Posted by deltatux

and with the changing conditions, OpenGL might be back to its once prominent position.

deltatux

^^ This.

[Stormyandcold]

Long-term these "portable games" devs will learn more about OpenGL and thus the next-generation of OpenGL programmers will make more and better use of it. It will take a few years, but, I can see these guys improve enough to make "big" games some day.

For the average user this generation and beyond I think any Windows is irrelevant.

MS are also unfortunate in that the majority of our HD screens aren't touch/multi-touch capable.

[sykozis]

The only issue is the quick release schedule for API updates. Most devs don't want to have to learn new "features" of an API constantly.

With AMD's rather pathetic support of OpenGL, it's re-emergence as the dominant API could be disasterous for AMD if they can't adapt and bring the level of support they offer up to par with that of nVidia. There have been a lot of complaints of AMD graphics cards struggling with older OpenGL based games due to their lack of proper support. If that's brought to the forefront....nVidia may be the lone survivor.

Originally Posted by Stormyandcold

Long-term these "portable games" devs will learn more about OpenGL and thus the next-generation of OpenGL programmers will make more and better use of it. It will take a few years, but, I can see these guys improve enough to make "big" games some day.

For the average user this generation and beyond I think any Windows is irrelevant.

MS are also unfortunate in that the majority of our HD screens aren't touch/multi-touch capable.

MS is in a position of "adapt to survive". They're watching the market they helped build, slowly roll over into a market they couldn't predict. I mean, sure, Windows Mobile isn't anything new. WindowsCE began development in 1992. Problem is, MS stumbled with Windows Mobile 7 (not WP7) and is still trying to recover. The KinOne and KinTwo were trainwrecks. Smartphone design, "basic" phone functionality. For MS to stay relevent in the future, they'll have to persue the mobile market in similar fashion to how Google has with Android....which is what they appear to be gearing up for with WP8. They'll also have to use open standards....which will further push OpenGL if MS is successful with WP8.

[Stormyandcold]

Originally Posted by sykozis

The only issue is the quick release schedule for API updates. Most devs don't want to have to learn new "features" of an API constantly.

With AMD's rather pathetic support of OpenGL, it's re-emergence as the dominant API could be disasterous for AMD if they can't adapt and bring the level of support they offer up to par with that of nVidia. There have been a lot of complaints of AMD graphics cards struggling with older OpenGL based games due to their lack of proper support. If that's brought to the forefront....nVidia may be the lone survivor.

TBH, with tablets and hand-held devices (which is helping to drive OpenGL forward) both AMD and Nvidia are pretty irrelevant. You will see this play out...

They're not that important in the grand scheme of things...

[sykozis]

Originally Posted by Stormyandcold

TBH, with tablets and hand-held devices (which is helping to drive OpenGL forward) both AMD and Nvidia are pretty irrelevant. You will see this play out...

They're not that important in the grand scheme of things...

Considering nVidia designs SoC's for mobile devices....they'll be relevent for a long time. As far as graphics, nobody is more capable than nVidia's R&D department.

[chilly willy]

Originally Posted by sykozis

Some of those features are for "syncing" the desktop to the mobile device. Leaving them off the desktop, would make the "syncing" quite a bit more difficult.

im mainly referring to the layout and feel of the os. the features themselves for the most part are fine. i just think the desktop os shouldn't be the exact same thing as you have on your phone. purely because desktops are usually used ina different manner. but they should be able to play nice together.

[Yxskaft]

Originally Posted by sykozis

The problem is, if a PC is limited to X number of draw calls...consoles will suffer the same or similar limitation, contrary to his claim. He claims that the next generation of consoles will outperform high-end PCs due to draw call limitations, but, as I said.... If PC is suffering from draw call limitations, consoles will as well. Of course, it's reasonable for higher draw call count to result in reduced framerate. The fewer steps necessary to reach the goal, the faster you'll get there.

This guy makes very few references to DirectX, but talks quite a bit about hardware limitations. If the limitation is hardware as he infers several times, consoles will suffer the same limitations. If the limitation is software, it can be circumvented by using a more efficient API.

He says some times that on the PC, it's mostly a software issue.
The consoles currently have too weak GPUs to take advantage of their draw call advantage, but that that will change when the next-gen consoles launches

His example of the performance difference

Now, each of these 50,000 cubes is draw using a single draw call. This is about the worst possible case for the system to deal with.
The 360 and the PS3 will happily chug along at 16.6ms per frame (or 60fps) all day and all night, no problem at all using 6 threads or a SPU based system to setup the draw calls.
The on the flip side the PC (Xenon 4C/8T @ 2.63Ghz, NV GTX 470, DX11 rendering mode, multiple DX11 deferred contexts for MT rendering over 6 threads) couldn't even manage 30fps. (I believe it clocked in around 27fps, or 37ms per frame, 30fps is 33.3ms/frame).

Clearly the PC GPU is fast enough so the problem must be CPU side.

Now, at this point it is I'm sure tempting to shout and yell about 'poorly optimised PC code' however the code in question is VERY light, a few hunded lines at best on the main path and our engine API very very closely mirrors DX11 API, so much so that for the PC it is often a very very thin wrapper to the DX API call and nothing more; if anything on some paths the consoles do more CPU work load.

When AMD complained about DX11, they too took the draw calls as an example
http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/gra...l-to-directx/2

He has repeated the issue in other threads, and answered to those who differed in their opinions. He's said that if you're optimistic, it would be a lead time of almost 2 years before things began being put into place, and that even after that, you would have to wait for devs to switch to the new API(and if the DX9 generation is anything to go by, that will take long)


And while this only may be one developer, but as mentioned, AMD's complaints did also use the draw calls as an example

[chispy]

I wish more Devs would come forward with their input and opinions on W8 , that way we shall know what kind of support it will get from Devs once its out.

[deltatux]

Originally Posted by sykozis

With AMD's rather pathetic support of OpenGL, it's re-emergence as the dominant API could be disasterous for AMD if they can't adapt and bring the level of support they offer up to par with that of nVidia. There have been a lot of complaints of AMD graphics cards struggling with older OpenGL based games due to their lack of proper support. If that's brought to the forefront....nVidia may be the lone survivor.

iirc, AMD did state that they're focusing on OpenGL 2.1 and later back a couple years. I've ran several OpenGL apps on my AMD hardware and they have been running quite well. I think older games using older OpenGL might have issues. If you run current generation OpenGL, I haven't bumped into any issues with AMD hardware.

deltatux

[Denial]

Originally Posted by chispy

I wish more Devs would come forward with their input and opinions on W8 , that way we shall know what kind of support it will get from Devs once its out.

A lot of them voiced opinions on it, but just because they have a negative opinion of it doesn't mean they are going to abandon support for the platform. Blizzard, Notch, Gabe and Carmack plus a few other lesser known companies.

None of them really care about the interface, they care about the direction Microsoft is headed in terms of platform development. They are essentially closing down the freedom the developers have to build their applications.

[F1refly]

Even if consumers don't take to Windows 8, they still will not take to Linux unless perhaps Google takes Android to that level and gets them in OEM hardware. The desktop Linux distro's just don't have the commercial support, too much repository confusion and most every help question is answered with..."open the terminal and type..."
Even many software installation how to's are wrote like that.
Plus no Itunes, No Netflix, few even default to playing dvd's or blu ray without user intervention or how to article, some hardware still difficult to get fully functional. I can't even just plug in my phone or ipad and have Ubuntu do anything. So i think it needs some major software company to intervene and market it.
However, this year and next year will be the perfect oportunity for Linux to flourish in the laptop and desktop markets which should bring in more developer support. But something has to happen first.

[Stormyandcold]

Originally Posted by sykozis

Considering nVidia designs SoC's for mobile devices....they'll be relevent for a long time. As far as graphics, nobody is more capable than nVidia's R&D department.

Nope.

http://www.guru3d.com/news/arm-mali-midgard-gpus/

quote "But ARM, whose licensed intellectual property (IP) CPU cores and titular instruction set dominates the mobile market"

As I said, you will see this play out...

[sykozis]

Originally Posted by Stormyandcold

Nope.

http://www.guru3d.com/news/arm-mali-midgard-gpus/

quote "But ARM, whose licensed intellectual property (IP) CPU cores and titular instruction set dominates the mobile market"

As I said, you will see this play out...

ARM designs micro-architectures, which are useless without companies that design the SoC's (like nVidia) that actually use the micro-arch....and without companies that manufacture the SoCs (like TSMC). ARM is completely fabless and depends on other companies licensing their IP to survive. They sell no actual, physical product at all. They simply sell licensing and micro-architecture designs.

[chispy]

Originally Posted by Denial

They are essentially closing down the freedom the developers have to build their applications.

This is how i see it too

[yelsewshane]

Micosoft will come out and make dx12 and not upgrade win7 to dx12 and thus create new sales of the os and the gpu company of nvidia and amd to also profit from it. The past allways repeats itself as ie. xp to vista with new dx version. Fact is it's to make money; heck a windows 3 system is really all ne1 needs.

[Cyberdyne]

I doubt it, I don't think MS is that upset with people holding onto Windows 7. Maybe upset with those still sticking with Windows XP, but not 7.
Even Vista was updated to use DX11 when 7 came out.

I think MS is pretty happy with the amount of people that switched to Windows 7.
Though, you would think they would be smart enough to entice people like us to keep the cycle moving, so to avoid another XP... but whatever.

[Denial]

Originally Posted by yelsewshane

Micosoft will come out and make dx12 and not upgrade win7 to dx12 and thus create new sales of the os and the gpu company of nvidia and amd to also profit from it. The past allways repeats itself as ie. xp to vista with new dx version. Fact is it's to make money; heck a windows 3 system is really all ne1 needs.

Vista was a rewrite of major portions of the kernel architecture, especially the graphics stack. That's why it wasn't backwards compatible.

Also I think like maybe 2% of the Windows user base actually cares about DX, I hardly think Microsoft considers it a selling point for an OS.

[Yxskaft]

Originally Posted by yelsewshane

Micosoft will come out and make dx12 and not upgrade win7 to dx12 and thus create new sales of the os and the gpu company of nvidia and amd to also profit from it. The past allways repeats itself as ie. xp to vista with new dx version. Fact is it's to make money; heck a windows 3 system is really all ne1 needs.

I too don't expect them to backport DX12 to Win7. It's sad, because it means it will take a longer time before studios start using the new API.

I have no doubt that DX10 and DX11 had been used much more if they were ported to XP. At least DX11 made one thing right with it's feature levels to target DX9 and DX10/10.1 hardware