Tax havens, do you accept their use?

[zhengzhoudave]

i don't blame people for doing it, I would. but like the first post said, in these times, no way should it be allowed!!!

[harkinsteven]

Did you read this?
They are hiding approx $21tn in tax havens.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18944097

[Dustpuppy]

.001% of the worlds population equates to 700,000 people and $3 million in ASSETS NOT INCOME, a pop. I say this because he's checking bank accounts, if he's checking income then I apologize ($21tn in income is a huge amount). Not exactly what I'd consider rich, wealthy to be sure but not rich. A typical doctor in the US could easily accumulate that much over half his working career plus a couple years depending on the student loans.

Put it in perspective, it takes around $200mil up to $10-20Bn to build a large fully mechanized factory and a small commercial farm goes for upwards of several million.

Before you demonize offshore accounts consider the actual reason for many of these 3-10mn offshore accounts is LIABILITY. If a rich guy faces a frivolous lawsuit he can lose everything, but it's not just lawsuits. A rich guy who gets married basically signs away half his fortune if he doesn't put it through layers and layers of defense. A man may well be a patriot, but he'd be an idiot not to protect his assets.

Additionally even if a government is good today that doesn't mean it won't be good in the future. I still love the USA, but that doesn't mean in 20 years we might not have a bunch of goosestepping douchewads in power.

[Salsoolo]

sorry but id rather keep my hard earned money rather than giving it to a wasteful government.
the rich do what the rich always do, protect their money by not giving it to a pathetic bureaucracy.

so many people try avoid taxes because if everyone was an angel, half of their money would go for the government. no body would make a decent living anymore.

[harkinsteven]

Originally Posted by Salsoolo

sorry but id rather keep my hard earned money rather than giving it to a wasteful government.
the rich do what the rich always do, protect their money by not giving it to a pathetic bureaucracy.

so many people try avoid taxes because if everyone was an angel, half of their money would go for the government. no body would make a decent living anymore.

Hate to break it to you, about 60% of what you earn goes to government, Income Tax, VAT, Road Tax, Water charges, National Insurance, Council Tax etc. When you start to look at it as a whole you see what we are, slaves.

[Salsoolo]

Originally Posted by harkinsteven

Hate to break it to you, about 60% of what you earn goes to government, Income Tax, VAT, Road Tax, Water charges, National Insurance, Council Tax etc. When you start to look at it as a whole you see what we are, slaves.

you just proved my point.

i was talking about the rich who hide their money, im not rich, but if i was, im sure as f*** will do everything possible to minimize my taxes

[hallryu]

The main issue I think is not the avoidance of tax but more the apparent lack of philanthropy among the super rich. If more wealthy people were inclined to distribute their wealth for the good of the disadvantaged I think we would be less likely to begrudge them squirrelling a bit more away in the process.

[nm+]

Originally Posted by IcE

The government also chased down tons of U.S. dual citizens living in other countries and audited them for their "owed backtaxes". My grandmother ended up "owing" several thousand when not only had she not lived in the U.S. for decades, but also made no money here in decades. It's a load of bollocks. Just shows how desperate they are to wring money for the system.

They actually did this because a lot of wealthy persons essentially bought foreign citizenships, "lived" there, and made money in the US (and then didn't pay taxes where they "lived.")
Much like the SSI situation, people assume they just don't have to file tax returns. If you live abroad, pay your taxes there, and file a tax return stating the above, you'd have no or little tax liability.

Originally Posted by Salsoolo

sorry but id rather keep my hard earned money rather than giving it to a wasteful government.
the rich do what the rich always do, protect their money by not giving it to a pathetic bureaucracy.

so many people try avoid taxes because if everyone was an angel, half of their money would go for the government. no body would make a decent living anymore.

Actually, if everyone paid what they owed, a lower contribution would be needed from everyone.

[airbud7]

Hmm...I work for rich people...Please...Dont **** with rich people...
The 10% of households with the highest incomes pay more than half of all federal taxes. They pay more than 70% of federal income taxes, according to the Congressional Budget Office....

Rich People=Jobs.....

[Corrupt^]

Originally Posted by hallryu

The main issue I think is not the avoidance of tax but more the apparent lack of philanthropy among the super rich. If more wealthy people were inclined to distribute their wealth for the good of the disadvantaged I think we would be less likely to begrudge them squirrelling a bit more away in the process.

Yep, those few 100's of dollars/euros normal people or middle class are paying, impact them much more then those 1000's for the rich. I admit, it's doesn't feel nice to hand in that cash but I hate how the ones that don't have to worry about money are usually the first to avoid it too.

[Salsoolo]

Originally Posted by nm+

..

Actually, if everyone paid what they owed, a lower contribution would be needed from everyone.

hahaha that was funny. in a perfect world with saints working in the government, yes.
but sadly, in the real world, it means politicians with big fortune500-like bonuses. and more spending on whatever they can think of.

[Dustpuppy]

Originally Posted by hallryu

The main issue I think is not the avoidance of tax but more the apparent lack of philanthropy among the super rich. If more wealthy people were inclined to distribute their wealth for the good of the disadvantaged I think we would be less likely to begrudge them squirrelling a bit more away in the process.

I would rather see a rich man building a factory than giving his fortune away. Unfortunately, investing in western industrial infrastructure is generally rather unwise at the moment (without government backing anyway).

[sirrith]

No, because usually it is only those who don't actually need them who use them i.e. the rich.

[nm+]

Originally Posted by airbud7

Hmm...I work for rich people...Please...Dont **** with rich people...
The 10% of households with the highest incomes pay more than half of all federal taxes. They pay more than 70% of federal income taxes, according to the Congressional Budget Office....

Rich People=Jobs.....

That's because they own 90% of everything in the country.

Increasing their personal tax rate is not going to impact how they run their businesses. Businesses do not hire because they have extra money lying around, they do because they need the man-power.
I grew up 1%, I have some experience with this. Rich people grumble about taxes, but they're not laying people off.
They're also likely paying less tax by percentage of income than you. By like a lot.

[JohnMaclane]

Originally Posted by Dustpuppy

I would rather see a rich man building a factory than giving his fortune away. Unfortunately, investing in western industrial infrastructure is generally rather unwise at the moment (without government backing anyway).

Originally Posted by airbud7

Hmm...I work for rich people...Please...Dont **** with rich people...
The 10% of households with the highest incomes pay more than half of all federal taxes. They pay more than 70% of federal income taxes, according to the Congressional Budget Office....

Rich People=Jobs.....

Heh...

The trickle down economic theory you guys love so much does not work, Seen countless articles (the economist and foreign policy to name a few).
All you have to do is see when was Americas economy strong and when has it become progressively weaker and you will realise how when america used to tax the rich more things were better.

The rich do not create jobs, they have the potential to start economic activity. However If their money makes more money simply by sitting on some treasury bonds and not being taxed then they have no incentive to transform the money into economic activity and work, simple as that.

That is why governments with effective taxation and low corruption are able to make investments because the capital which would be otherwise sitting in some bank account is creating real work (which should be taxed less).

[Brasky]

Originally Posted by nm+

That's because they own 90% of everything in the country.

Increasing their personal tax rate is not going to impact how they run their businesses. Businesses do not hire because they have extra money lying around, they do because they need the man-power.
I grew up 1%, I have some experience with this. Rich people grumble about taxes, but they're not laying people off.
They're also likely paying less tax by percentage of income than you. By like a lot.

which they should, because they are still putting in much more cash into the system. that, and if you have ever heard of double taxation, which is taxing the same income twice. That's why they are taxed less on capital gains because they already paid the taxes on the money as income.
And if they were taxed heavily again, then there would be no incentive to continue investment and people would just sit on their cash.

http://usbudget.*************/2012/0...-taxation.html

http://www.pappasontaxes.com/index.p...-and-cynicism/

http://www.nationaljournal.com/2012-...cent--20120131

One more point- Socialists were elected in france, and poof-wealthy people leave. Apparently 70% is too much. So what's an appropriate number for the government to claim of your hard earned income? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...f-wealthy.html

[CronoGraal]

i dont mind taxes, i just hate how i can't decide how the tax money i pay ends up getting spent.

tax havens = gtfo.

[Brasky]

Originally Posted by CronoGraal

i dont mind taxes, i just hate how i can't decide how the tax money i pay ends up getting spent.

tax havens = gtfo.

I concur, personally if they would pay down the national debt instead of funding all these stupid small projects that only benefit the senators/congressman's districts, i would be less annoyed.

[Vinnie]

I would if I could! We pay way too much taxes here in the Netherlands.. Most of the governments money here is not spended well anyways. And I know they can work a lot more efficiently.

[Xendance]

Originally Posted by airbud7

Hmm...I work for rich people...Please...Dont **** with rich people...
The 10% of households with the highest incomes pay more than half of all federal taxes. They pay more than 70% of federal income taxes, according to the Congressional Budget Office....

Rich People=Jobs.....

Eh... demand creates jobs. Not rich people.

[pedropaulo]

Originally Posted by Vinnie

I would if I could! We pay way too much taxes here in the Netherlands.. Most of the governments money here is not spended well anyways. And I know they can work a lot more efficiently.

Taxes?!
Come to Portugal......
Too bad that the impositions of the World Bank and IMF are targeted at the people, middle an low class, and leave the corrupt politicians and their ubber rich friends in peace.

Offshore=Illegal and immoral.
But strangely permitted.

[Arctucas]

I believe people (all people, not just those who are well-to-do) should pay their 'fair share'.

However, I also believe that for governments to spend those tax dollars (or whatever currency) frivolously is the real crime, and legislators should be made personally accountable for government boondoggles and pork barrel spending.

Additionally, I believe those whose abuse the social safety nets funded mostly by said taxes should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, and be made to to repay (with interest) every penny they swindle from the hard-working people who actually do pay taxes.

If the tax system were fair and effective, I believe people would be less inclined to use tax dodges.

[Salsoolo]

^If you were a multi-millionaire and your tax accountant told you either move X millions into a legal tax shelter or you would not be a millionaire in a short amount of time, what would you do???
Should I have to pay taxes in the U.S. on money I earned overseas I know legally it is a requirement but think about it. Shouldn't the taxes be paid to the country where it is earned?

[KCjoker]

Originally Posted by Brasky

which they should, because they are still putting in much more cash into the system. that, and if you have ever heard of double taxation, which is taxing the same income twice. That's why they are taxed less on capital gains because they already paid the taxes on the money as income.
And if they were taxed heavily again, then there would be no incentive to continue investment and people would just sit on their cash.

http://usbudget.*************/2012/0...-taxation.html

http://www.pappasontaxes.com/index.p...-and-cynicism/

http://www.nationaljournal.com/2012-...cent--20120131

One more point- Socialists were elected in france, and poof-wealthy people leave. Apparently 70% is too much. So what's an appropriate number for the government to claim of your hard earned income? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...f-wealthy.html

Exactly, I love how Obama and so many others always try to compare Capital Gains tax rates to Income Tax rates. The rich already paid Income Taxes on that money when they EARNED it...now they get taxed again on any investment that returns a gain. Go ahead and increase that tax rate and you'll have less money invested. And yes Demand creates jobs but what creates demand??? A product or service, and who creates that product or service? My favorite though is how Obama and the Dems want to increase tax rates on singles that make $200k and couples that make $250k a year. Well that's all fine however.....making $200k/$250k a year in New York or in San Francisco is MUCH different than someone that makes the same in Oklahoma or North Dakota.

[Dustpuppy]

Originally Posted by JohnMaclane

Heh...

The trickle down economic theory you guys love so much does not work, Seen countless articles (the economist and foreign policy to name a few).
All you have to do is see when was Americas economy strong and when has it become progressively weaker and you will realise how when america used to tax the rich more things were better.

The rich do not create jobs, they have the potential to start economic activity. However If their money makes more money simply by sitting on some treasury bonds and not being taxed then they have no incentive to transform the money into economic activity and work, simple as that.

That is why governments with effective taxation and low corruption are able to make investments because the capital which would be otherwise sitting in some bank account is creating real work (which should be taxed less).

Your post is factually wrong on several accounts. First you've bought into the myth of the high marginal rate. Even a cursory knowledge of the gilded age should give you a hint that you're buying into propaganda. I'm guessing you haven't even bothered to google check your source with "myth" typed after it. The top marginal rate used to be very high, but the top effective rate differed significantly from it.

Second, my post wasn't even concerning trickle down economics. As for the wealthy not creating jobs, Jobs don't magically exist. It is just as fallacious to say that wealthy people create all the jobs, as it is to say they create no jobs or that the government creates no jobs. I have no respect for either conservative or liberal claims one or the other.

Third, do you know what happens when a rich guy buys a govt bond? I would wager you do, so lets state it plainly: Bonds are issued when the government wants to SPEND MONEY. When a rich guy buys a treasury bond, that money gets SPENT by the government; it's not just sitting there.