Continuing GTX 680 VSYNC Problems (RAGE) (Video Inside)

[Brendruis]

Originally Posted by Omnicurse22

You can add Battlefield 3 Multiplayer & Singleplayerto that list, on a SLI GTX 670 rig, 304.79 drivers. and 304.48 drivers, the fps with vsync on still drops from 60 to 57-55 sometimes a bit lower. I have also tried it without SLI same issue.

I see this also on 680 SLI.. will add to the list.

[Brendruis]

Alright I said that was my last video but I lied.. I really want to see this issue fixed.

This is Civ 5 at 60Hz on a single GPU.. fairly late in the game but you don't have to be to experience the problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F8FXZNjTvw&feature=plcp

I can't personally see buying a new generation of nVidia cards in the future without confirmation from someone I trust that this problem isn't present.

Probably the only reason I haven't sold them and gone to XFire 7970s is my 3D Vision setup which I paid good $ for. I suppose I could sell them and go back to 480s or 580s...

Any input on that guys? 480s are $199 on Newegg now Geez... I guess I could do that? Something to think about while I wait to see if the next few drivers improve this.

[alanm]

Its just amazing how user experiences can be so varied with GPUs. Just recently someone made a thread of how frustrated he was with 7970 CF and how 680 SLI made such a positive impression on him.

http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=364841

[Brendruis]

Originally Posted by alanm

Its just amazing how user experiences can be so varied with GPUs. Just recently someone made a thread of how frustrated he was with 7970 CF and how 680 SLI made such a positive impression on him.

http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=364841

Seems clear the VSYNC problem isn't an individual user experience.. this is definitely a driver problem and there's a 95 page thread on the nV forums about it... they are having server problems ATM the only reason why I am bringing this here.

7970 CF has its own problems and SLI profiles I agree are better but we're talking about single card performance here

SLI seems to reduce the problem in many games so the problem is likely not noticeable to this person in the applications they use.

Here's another video.. GTX 680 stuttering whenever you hover over a menu or move the camera a little in SHOGUN 2!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Qvot...ature=youtu.be

[yosef019]

Originally Posted by Brendruis

I see this also on 680 SLI.. will add to the list.

we need xeon for sli and i7x for single 680 ...

[tweakpower]

If you have 3D vision setup, and you was actually satisfied with GTX580, your best option is to downgrade to 580 ('s). From your videos, i see constant stuttering (but maybe that's monitor problem, ghosting? or maybe cam?), but picture is more clear on 560.

I used nVidia cards for a long time, very few ATI/AMD, mostly mid to low range cards. You know on all forums people talk how nVidia drivers are superior to AMD/ATI, and that is true, pure fact. It has more features etc, but too much optimisations can bring more problems than gains (in mine opinion). So i went for AMD again (few days ago), first things i noticed: some games have less FPS (few) than nvidia similar card tested on same PC even tho it is weaker a bit, better image quality (on AMD by far..., nVidia looks washed out...every single card i tested), better performance in general (despite lower FPS in some games), no more lag (with or without V-SYNC). On some games that use more CPU power, nVidia seems to be a little more smoother, but that's just a few games, and have in mind that mince CPU is very slow, but in cost of introducing even more lag (driver optimisation?). Overall, never again i will go green... maybe if they change the way of drivers and how it works, better more raw power with same performance than optimised...

Anyway, if you where satisfied with 580's go with them (to save 3D vision setup etc.), or test things i said, and if you agree, sell that crap, and go to AMD. Cheers.

[Omnicurse22]

i went from sli 480's to 670's and i don't regret it, i'm just gonna wait for the issues to get resolved, because at the end of the day you still have a lower power big banging baller card, It's had less then 2 official driver releases, we can't really expect there to NOT be problems, its a brand new series

[Brendruis]

Originally Posted by tweakpower

If you have 3D vision setup, and you was actually satisfied with GTX580, your best option is to downgrade to 580 ('s). From your videos, i see constant stuttering (but maybe that's monitor problem, ghosting? or maybe cam?), but picture is more clear on 560.

I used nVidia cards for a long time, very few ATI/AMD, mostly mid to low range cards. You know on all forums people talk how nVidia drivers are superior to AMD/ATI, and that is true, pure fact. It has more features etc, but too much optimisations can bring more problems than gains (in mine opinion). So i went for AMD again (few days ago), first things i noticed: some games have less FPS (few) than nvidia similar card tested on same PC even tho it is weaker a bit, better image quality (on AMD by far..., nVidia looks washed out...every single card i tested), better performance in general (despite lower FPS in some games), no more lag (with or without V-SYNC). On some games that use more CPU power, nVidia seems to be a little more smoother, but that's just a few games, and have in mind that mince CPU is very slow, but in cost of introducing even more lag (driver optimisation?). Overall, never again i will go green... maybe if they change the way of drivers and how it works, better more raw power with same performance than optimised...

Anyway, if you where satisfied with 580's go with them (to save 3D vision setup etc.), or test things i said, and if you agree, sell that crap, and go to AMD. Cheers.

My monitor does have some ghosting at 60Hz since it is a 120Hz monitor it uses TraceFree to remove some of it.. this isn't the issue I speak of though... it is stuttering also because it drops below 60fps.

Originally Posted by Omnicurse22

i went from sli 480's to 670's and i don't regret it, i'm just gonna wait for the issues to get resolved, because at the end of the day you still have a lower power big banging baller card, It's had less then 2 official driver releases, we can't really expect there to NOT be problems, its a brand new series

I expect there to be issues like incompatibility with some games, but honestly this issue is pretty inexcusable especially after it has been out for nearly 4 months. It doesn't matter how low you lower your settings in games, you cannot achieve solid 60 fps. When I'm playing games I always lower settings until I can achieve that 60 fps 99% of the time...unless it is impossible due to game CPU optimization limitation.

With 680, it isn't possible.. if you want VSYNC smoothness look elsewhere for now until major fixes address the problem.

[Spets]

Originally Posted by tweakpower

better image quality (on AMD by far..., nVidia looks washed out...every single card i tested

Right, so everytime a reviewer has actually tested for image quality in games and said 99% of the time it's the same image quality (unless it's high AF or a driver bug eg. shadows/textures that gets fixed later on) we should just ignore that and take the fud you give us.

[tweakpower]

Originally Posted by Brendruis

My monitor does have some ghosting at 60Hz since it is a 120Hz monitor it uses TraceFree to remove some of it.. this isn't the issue I speak of though... it is stuttering also because it drops below 60fps.

Yeah, well, that's why this forum is, look all the opinions, and make your decision based on them and your own experience/testing. Hope we help .

Originally Posted by Spets

Right, so everytime a reviewer has actually tested for image quality in games and said 99% of the time it's the same image quality (unless it's high AF or a driver bug eg. shadows/textures that gets fixed later on) we should just ignore that and take the fud you give us.

No, i play all of my games (very few) with 16xAF (some on 8xAF, that's high, i think there is no higher settings than that), also when testing, use 16xAF and 4xAA. Here is few example for you: NFS Shift, same resolution, 16xAF, 4xAA, all details on maximum, when i started firs time that game on AMD card, i thought it is dif. game, it looks much better than on nVidia. To be honest, even Desktop looks more clear, so i don't really know what those in reviews look at, but i know what i see. Maybe nVidia use different IQ for lower to mid range cards? I don't know how to explain it different than "washed out image", not so clear, it looks like there is a bit of fog if you like. But i can't say that for high end GPU's on nVidia side, because i tested none.

[Spets]

http://www.guru3d.com/article/anno-1...mance-review/3

http://www.guru3d.com/article/hawx-p...mance-review/3

http://www.guru3d.com/article/call-o...ormance-test/3

http://www.guru3d.com/article/far-cr...mance-review/3

http://www.guru3d.com/article/brothe...mance-review/3

I can go searching through other sites but I'm not going to be responding after I saw the hardon you had over the Intel/AMD threads and we've been OT enough. You want to believe what you want, that's fine, just stop spreading fud.

[Brendruis]

Think we're getting off topic but if you are talking about color reproduction then you need an accurate display to even begin a comparison.

If you are just speaking of your preference when it comes to colors on the desktop, nVidia does offer adjustments in the driver and there are many tools out there to assist you in finding a balance that is to your liking. I find I can make an nVidia card 'look' like an ATI card on the desktop by adding more saturation and arguably over-saturating the image but much of it is down to personal preference. What looks good to me and is accurate might not look good to you because you prefer the more vibrant colors.

If there is one thing that isn't personal opinion it is that there is definitely huge VSYNC issues with the GTX 680 (and 670 and 690).. just look at the thread just below this one.. the guy says he has the same issue drops to 53 fps in League of Legends and stutters in BF3.

[alanm]

Originally Posted by tweakpower

better image quality (on AMD by far..., nVidia looks washed out...every single card i tested), better performance in general...

Monitors and drivers default settings can have a lot to do with it. My feeling is that Nvidia drivers at default settings are 'neutral' so to speak, and may not make colors extra rich perhaps (at default) so they may look *initially* washed out on *some* monitors. Which may lead some to use Digital Vibrance to address this. On more than one monitor I've had dramatic differences ranging from 'seemingly' washed out to highly vibrant. On my latest monitor (Samsung S27A950D), I use zero DV, zero contrast/gamma adjustments, yet have incredibly rich, vibrant colors and breathtaking IQ.

Also reminds me of high-end audio. A friend has an expensive audio rig and when I hear it, I say wheres the bass? Theres no huge thumping bass that jumps out at you. His pre-amp has no tone controls, which to him are anathema. Everything should be as neutral as possible, as the recording engineers intended, according to him. My feeling is the same principle is applied by Nvidia towards IQ. But its easily adjustable (unlike absent tone controls) to bring any level of vibrance or neutrality you want.

Bottom line, IQ is the mainstay of graphics cards. If I suspected the slightest IQ disadvantage of Nvidia cards, I would switch sides in a heartbeat. But as using various monitors have proven to me, it just aint the case. I think the many previous AMD owners who jump back and forth between NV cards never see this as an issue either.

[Frohman0905]

How strange it isn't fixed for some people. After reading this thread I did some small tests myself. I fired up some "old" games which are CS:source, HL2 and COD4 MW. These games should be no problem for a GTX680 to maintain 60fps. I'm using the 304.48 drivers btw. After playing each game for over an hour, I've come to the conclusion that vsync is working the way it should. I get a steady 60fps. What I'm curious about, are there other people with the same experience as me?

[Brendruis]

Originally Posted by Frohman0905

How strange it isn't fixed for some people. After reading this thread I did some small tests myself. I fired up some "old" games which are CS:source, HL2 and COD4 MW. These games should be no problem for a GTX680 to maintain 60fps. I'm using the 304.48 drivers btw. After playing each game for over an hour, I've come to the conclusion that vsync is working the way it should. I get a steady 60fps. What I'm curious about, are there other people with the same experience as me?

VSYNC is not working as it should. It depends on the game, and some notice the problem more than others. CS:S works reasonably well but there are still issues.. it becomes very clear when you put it on 120Hz... it can't stay in sync at 120Hz at all!! open FRAPS and see for yourself.

[tweakpower]

Originally Posted by Spets

http://www.guru3d.com/article/anno-1...mance-review/3

http://www.guru3d.com/article/hawx-p...mance-review/3

http://www.guru3d.com/article/call-o...ormance-test/3

http://www.guru3d.com/article/far-cr...mance-review/3

http://www.guru3d.com/article/brothe...mance-review/3

I can go searching through other sites but I'm not going to be responding after I saw the hardon you had over the Intel/AMD threads and we've been OT enough. You want to believe what you want, that's fine, just stop spreading fud.

Read post below, if you are interested. As i said already, in forums, you look at dif. opinions, test it by yourself, and then draw a conclusion, that is the point of forum in fact. I say what i see, no fud, some people did explain in posts below, maybe that is the case, so read.

Originally Posted by Brendruis

Think we're getting off topic but if you are talking about color reproduction then you need an accurate display to even begin a comparison.

If you are just speaking of your preference when it comes to colors on the desktop, nVidia does offer adjustments in the driver and there are many tools out there to assist you in finding a balance that is to your liking. I find I can make an nVidia card 'look' like an ATI card on the desktop by adding more saturation and arguably over-saturating the image but much of it is down to personal preference. What looks good to me and is accurate might not look good to you because you prefer the more vibrant colors.

If there is one thing that isn't personal opinion it is that there is definitely huge VSYNC issues with the GTX 680 (and 670 and 690).. just look at the thread just below this one.. the guy says he has the same issue drops to 53 fps in League of Legends and stutters in BF3.

Yes, what looks good for you, may look bad for me or otherwise, i don't even know why people use VSYNC to be honest . IT destroys purpose of strong GPU, or maybe for high resolutions it makes sense.

Originally Posted by alanm

Monitors and drivers default settings can have a lot to do with it. My feeling is that Nvidia drivers at default settings are 'neutral' so to speak, and may not make colors extra rich perhaps (at default) so they may look *initially* washed out on *some* monitors. Which may lead some to use Digital Vibrance to address this. On more than one monitor I've had dramatic differences ranging from 'seemingly' washed out to highly vibrant. On my latest monitor (Samsung S27A950D), I use zero DV, zero contrast/gamma adjustments, yet have incredibly rich, vibrant colors and breathtaking IQ.

Also reminds me of high-end audio. A friend has an expensive audio rig and when I hear it, I say wheres the bass? Theres no huge thumping bass that jumps out at you. His pre-amp has no tone controls, which to him are anathema. Everything should be as neutral as possible, as the recording engineers intended, according to him. My feeling is the same principle is applied by Nvidia towards IQ. But its easily adjustable (unlike absent tone controls) to bring any level of vibrance or neutrality you want.

Bottom line, IQ is the mainstay of graphics cards. If I suspected the slightest IQ disadvantage of Nvidia cards, I would switch sides in a heartbeat. But as using various monitors have proven to me, it just aint the case. I think the many previous AMD owners who jump back and forth between NV cards never see this as an issue either.

I think you are onto something here, that was actually whole point, with default settings, colors look more rich on AMD/ATI back in days (it goes from GF2 and R8500 era). For example, i have very wide options to adjust monitor color/brightness/contrast etc., but i adjusted it on nvidia card, and that was OK IQ for me, but when changed to AMD, i saw big difference on same monitor settings. I use CRT monitor by the way, same thing is noticed xx years ago when going from FX5500 to R9550, but with different monitor (philips). If you can't see on some monitors, i think those monitors are not capable of reproducing high quality picture, or they are connected digitally and there is really no difference (don't have digital display to test it).

[Brendruis]

Originally Posted by tweakpower

Yes, what looks good for you, may look bad for me or otherwise, i don't even know why people use VSYNC to be honest . IT destroys purpose of strong GPU, or maybe for high resolutions it makes sense.

If I had a 6770 I wouldn't use VSYNC either.. when you are below 60fps VSYNC off is preferrable. VSYNC on does not 'destroy the purpose of a strong GPU' it gives you smoother gameplay experience and no tearing if you have said strong GPU to handle it. The problem is we have GPUs capable of the performance, there is just a problem with this setting where the rubber can't meet the road so to speak.

[tweakpower]

Originally Posted by Brendruis

If I had a 6770 I wouldn't use VSYNC either.. when you are below 60fps VSYNC off is preferrable. VSYNC on does not 'destroy the purpose of a strong GPU' it gives you smoother gameplay experience and no tearing if you have said strong GPU to handle it. The problem is we have GPUs capable of the performance, there is just a problem with this setting where the rubber can't meet the road so to speak.

Yes, i know what's the problem, saw from the video. But there are monitors out there that do not have tearing at all (LCD), they use some sort of anti-tearing tech. If you have spare money, look for those, and get rid of V-SYNC forever (always good thing, trust me). Than, this bug with GTX680 will be non important, if they work good without ofc. I never really had tearing problem, only maybe at 85Hz or lower, but even when using 100Hz and FPS well over 100 (200-300 to be exact) there is no tearing at all, picture is clean same as v-sync ON. Did you try to limit FPS and v-sync OFF? Try to limit it to 59 or 60, and see how it goes, but turn off vsync.

Also, trz to limit FPS with different programs, nVidia driver, but also Dxtory (i think that program works best, one guy here on guru 3D suggested it, find somewhere on forum).

[Frohman0905]

Originally Posted by Brendruis

VSYNC is not working as it should. It depends on the game, and some notice the problem more than others. CS:S works reasonably well but there are still issues.. it becomes very clear when you put it on 120Hz... it can't stay in sync at 120Hz at all!! open FRAPS and see for yourself.

I was using Fraps AND MSI Afterburner OSD while I did my testing and my experience was totally different than yours. It's not that I don't believe you, you've proved it with your videos but the dips I see in your videos are non-existent with my setup and I'm using a single card. I specifically looked for the dips and stuttering while playing the games and I don't have them. I have to mention, I am using a 60Hz monitor. That is why I asked if there are others who don't have this issue.

[RedPyramid]

Originally Posted by Niabureth

This is again only concerning the game Rage.
With everything set to max including x16 AA with the exception of texture detail to "off" 1920 x 1080 res. I get a solid 60fps using fraps, no textures pop-in no stuttering etc. Doesn't matter how fast I spin the character or where I went on the maps, the fraps fps meter stays on a solid 60.

Originally Posted by alanm

Its just amazing how user experiences can be so varied with GPUs. Just recently someone made a thread of how frustrated he was with 7970 CF and how 680 SLI made such a positive impression on him.

Originally Posted by Frohman0905

After playing each game for over an hour, I've come to the conclusion that vsync is working the way it should. I get a steady 60fps.

..I was using Fraps AND MSI Afterburner OSD while I did my testing and my experience was totally different than yours. It's not that I don't believe you, you've proved it with your videos but the dips I see in your videos are non-existent with my setup and I'm using a single card. I specifically looked for the dips and stuttering while playing the games and I don't have them.

Brendruis, when I see these comments, I have to ask: have you considered the possibility that your present trouble may be related to your system? Either a problem with one of your cards, or a problem with some other component? The following is a vital test I think you should carry out: Take one of your 680s (preferably the one which is unused when you disable sli), and install it for the purposes of this test in your other machine, the one containing the 560ti. See if you kepler experience is any better. Did you buy your 680s together? Same brand?

Originally Posted by Brendruis

nV forums.. are having server problems ATM

wth r u talking about? who said that?

[Spets]

Originally Posted by RedPyramid

wth r u talking about? who said that?

It's down for maintenance.

[undercoverb0ss]

After doing some testing I can confirm the drop in FPS in TF2.

I have a 690 GTX and with Vsync off I get 200+ fps at 2560x1600.

With it on I get random drops to 58-59.

[Shadowdane]

Hmm ok I figured out something here... I think maybe my custom fan profile in MSI Afterburner is causing the framerate drops? Maybe every time Afterburner is polling the driver or it causes a framerate drop?

I disabled the custom fan profile in Afterburner and suddenly it holds at 60fps constantly now. Only downside is my card runs slightly hotter now as the fans spin slower than I'd like.

Not sure if this is a driver issue or a problem with MSI Afterburner.

[RedPyramid]

Originally Posted by Spets

It's down for maintenance.

Yeh "down for maintenance", this I've heard. I haven't heard anything about server problems though. Sounds equally hard to believe as "down for maintenance". Have you EVER heard of any forum going offline for 10 days, for maintenance?? The forum of a massive hardware company no less. Maximum 6 hours is the most I've heard of.. Smells fishy..

[undercoverb0ss]

I'm using EVGA Precision for FPS monitoring, still getting frame drops with or without fan profile.

I can sit at the TF2 menu and watch it randomly drop to 59 from 60 for no reason at all.

Not even moving the cursor.

During gameplay it will drop to 58 sometimes.