Why so many refresh rates?

[SciFi]

I've always wondered why there are so many different refresh rates for monitors - 60Hz, 75Hz, 29Hz, 24Hz, 110Hz, 120Hz? 60Hz and 120Hz (for 3D) should be more than enough for all purposes. Why isn't there a standard refresh rate? Can anyone tell me?

[deltatux]

The refresh rate depends on how fast your monitor can refresh. The faster your monitor can refresh, the more frames it can handle before it tears.

That's like asking, why isn't there a standard CPU speed?

deltatux

[Corrupt^]

And not every technology supports every refreshrate. Some things only work with certain refreshrates.

[SciFi]

If faster refresh rates means better fps support, then why not support only higher rates? does the refresh rate have a bearing on the cost of the display?

[Corrupt^]

Obviously.

[Loobyluggs]

Originally Posted by SciFi

I've always wondered why there are so many different refresh rates for monitors - 60Hz, 75Hz, 29Hz, 24Hz, 110Hz, 120Hz? 60Hz and 120Hz (for 3D) should be more than enough for all purposes. Why isn't there a standard refresh rate? Can anyone tell me?

There are many reasons, whilst I do not profess to understand a definitive answer, I have an idea:

PC's need to be backwards compatible, so this would include CGA graphics @ 640 x 200 4-bit colour - which back in the 80's was pretty sharp, unlike the music.

Originally Posted by SciFi

If faster refresh rates means better fps support, then why not support only higher rates? does the refresh rate have a bearing on the cost of the display?

Yes, it's all about the money.

However, the monitor type/panel technology (IPS etc) is where the cost truly is and you need to account for price elasticity of demand.

ie; the demand for a cheap N nasty monitor, good for a variety of unwaivering eye-level uses, is much higher than a 120Hz O-LED capable of being viewed at up to 176 degrees off-centre.

Word 'round the campfire is that the profit margins for LCD's is tiny, due to v-high demand and therefore volume.

[death_samurai]

Isn't 60fps the accepted rate at which a game needs to play that the human eye and mind can discern that it's smooth?

Even if it moves at 120fps the human eye cannot tell the diff between that and 60fps.

Therefore do you feel that buying a 120hz monitor is like a waste of money and in fact stupid since i suppose you'll need the computer to work harder to make sure the game stays at 120fps constant so that it looks smooth on a 120hz monitor and that's going to be a problem since most up to date games force even the best hardware to work like hell before they can manage 60fps so there is no way a pc can make a game like battlefield 3 smooth on a 120hz monitor?

[Darkest]

Originally Posted by death_samurai

Isn't 60fps the accepted rate at which a game needs to play that the human eye and mind can discern that it's smooth?

Even if it moves at 120fps the human eye cannot tell the diff between that and 60fps.

A common misconception.

See here: http://www.100fps.com/how_many_frame...humans_see.htm

and here: http://whisper.ausgamers.com/wiki/in...an_eye_can_see

[Loobyluggs]

Originally Posted by death_samurai

Isn't 60fps the accepted rate at which a game needs to play that the human eye and mind can discern that it's smooth?

Even if it moves at 120fps the human eye cannot tell the diff between that and 60fps.

Therefore do you feel that buying a 120hz monitor is like a waste of money and in fact stupid since i suppose you'll need the computer to work harder to make sure the game stays at 120fps constant so that it looks smooth on a 120hz monitor and that's going to be a problem since most up to date games force even the best hardware to work like hell before they can manage 60fps so there is no way a pc can make a game like battlefield 3 smooth on a 120hz monitor?

I may have said this before:

Your eyes are incredible, and can see every single photon of light within your field of vision - what your brain can decode is another matter.

Some peoples brains can decode more per second than other peoples brains can.

Hence: Fatality is a multi-millionaire, and we're not. quod erat demonstrandum.

[StewieTech]

Excuse me the thread hijack but i have a question regarding something similar to this. Why do some games run smooth at 30-40 fps and others run very laggy at 30-40 fps also? This have to do with what? Hope i´m not in offtopic.

[Mufflore]

As said, many of the refresh rates are for backward compatibility, others are to fix problems.
You can choose to sync at a lower/higher refresh to suit the fps you get in a particular game.

Originally Posted by StewieTech

Excuse me the thread hijack but i have a question regarding something similar to this. Why do some games run smooth at 30-40 fps and others run very laggy at 30-40 fps also? This have to do with what? Hope i´m not in offtopic.

Many potential reasons and it depends on the specific point, you mentioned 2 here, smoothness and lag, they are not the same but can be related.

Is vsync operational?
It can be both good and bad depending how it is used.

Frame jitter (uneven frame times) will make things look jerky, vsync mostly eliminates this.
If vsync is enabled, it can cause frame rates to drop a lot which can make it look jerkier (less smooth is probably the better definition).

Vsync also adds lag which increases with the number of frame buffers.
Increasing the number of frame buffers helps prevent a large drop in fps when vsync is enabled.

Swings and roundabouts.

[airbud7]

Originally Posted by StewieTech

Why do some games run smooth at 30-40 fps and others run very laggy at 30-40 fps also? This have to do with what? Hope i´m not in offtopic.

Good question? Start a new thread StewieTech

[lehtv]

Originally Posted by Loobyluggs

I may have said this before:

Your eyes are incredible, and can see every single photon of light within your field of vision - what your brain can decode is another matter.

Yet that has little to do with monitor refresh rates... Any healthy human brain can discern the difference between 120hz and 60hz in fast motion.

Some peoples brains can decode more per second than other peoples brains can.

Hence: Fatality is a multi-millionaire, and we're not. quod erat demonstrandum.

Fatal1ty did well because he practiced, practiced and practiced, not because of having a brain that could decode more per second than those of other people.

[lehtv]

Originally Posted by StewieTech

Excuse me the thread hijack but i have a question regarding something similar to this. Why do some games run smooth at 30-40 fps and others run very laggy at 30-40 fps also? This have to do with what? Hope i´m not in offtopic.

I don't find this to be true at all. All games seem equally laggy at 30-40fps. It's just that with some games, the lagginess has a lesser impact on the experience.

[SciFi]

Ok so we've got many refresh rates so that people can set whatever suits them. But how did we arrive at these values? Why not 66Hz or 92Hz? This might sound stupid, but I'm trying to find out the logic behind deciding the refresh rate values.

[Mufflore]

Video standards.
Different places round the world use(d) different refresh rates for TV/video.
Some of these were doubled up for newer displays.

[Loobyluggs]

Originally Posted by lehtv

Fatal1ty did well because he practiced, practiced and practiced, not because of having a brain that could decode more per second than those of other people.

He did practice a lot, but he also has a very fast reaction time - something which is critical to competitive gaming.

This is also known as Mental Chronometry.

"Mental chronometry is studied using the measurements of reaction time (RT). Reaction time is the elapsed time between the presentation of a sensory stimulus and the subsequent behavioral response. In psychometric psychology it is considered to be an index of speed of processing"

It is all time-based math, so my comment/opinion was accurate - sorry to correct you.

Life is good if you have the right genes - and no matter how much you practice, if you have the RT of a snail, you're not going to be a successful competitive gamer.

No more than if you ran every day you would be able to get a sub-9 second time in a 100 metre sprint - unless you had the genes for it.

[Sever]

Originally Posted by lehtv

I don't find this to be true at all. All games seem equally laggy at 30-40fps. It's just that with some games, the lagginess has a lesser impact on the experience.

depends on the game engine from my experience. when i run dirt2 with no vsync, i score over 100fps but it 'looks' like its running at 30fps. if i enable vsync, it looks much smoother. whereas with other games like need for speed shift 2 or mass effect 3, they look a lot smoother at 100fps.

the human eye doesnt see in frames per second. the human eye records images continuously. thats the reason why we can see the difference between 30fps, 60fps, 120fps and even 240fps.

[lehtv]

Originally Posted by Loobyluggs

He did practice a lot, but he also has a very fast reaction time - something which is critical to competitive gaming.

How do you know he has a very fast reaction time?

Also, reaction time can be improved with practice.

And reaction time isn't nearly as important as you think. Competitive dueling is about thinking ahead of your opponent. In fact this applies not just to competitive gaming, but sports like tennis and table tennis etc. Being prepared and being always one or more steps ahead makes reflexes largely obsolete. Reflexes are useful when you're surprised or caught off guard but at that point you've already been outplayed.

Life is good if you have the right genes - and no matter how much you practice, if you have the RT of a snail, you're not going to be a successful competitive gamer.

Wrong, anyone with slower than average reaction time can be a highly successful competitive gamer

No more than if you ran every day you would be able to get a sub-9 second time in a 100 metre sprint - unless you had the genes for it.

The current world record is 9.58 seconds.

100 meter sprint is not analogous to competitive gaming. Sprinting is a simple sport, you don't need to analyze patterns and think ahead of the opponent, you just do physical work. Having better genes will have much more effect in a sport like sprinting.

[Loobyluggs]

Originally Posted by lehtv

How do you know he has a very fast reaction time?

Also, reaction time can be improved with practice.

And reaction time isn't nearly as important as you think. Competitive dueling is about thinking ahead of your opponent. In fact this applies not just to competitive gaming, but sports like tennis and table tennis etc. Being prepared and being always one or more steps ahead makes reflexes largely obsolete. Reflexes are useful when you're surprised or caught off guard but at that point you've already been outplayed.

Wrong, anyone with slower than average reaction time can be a highly successful competitive gamer

The current world record is 9.58 seconds.

100 metre sprint is not analogous to competitive gaming. Sprinting is a simple sport, you don't need to analyse patterns and think ahead of the opponent, you just do physical work. Having better genes will have much more effect in a sport like sprinting.

Well, to be honest we are getting off topic a little too much - perhaps you'd like to make another thread and we can continue this discussion in there.

Until then, I'd suggest you re-read my comments, as I think you've misunderstood.