IBM Battery 500: A look inside a lithium-air battery

[Guru3D News]

In 2009 IBM researchers set out to develop lithium-air battery technology capable of powering a family-sized electric car for approximately 500 miles 800 km on a single charge. Instead of using heavy...

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[BLEH!]

Cool idea, but would go VERY wrong if even a single drop of water gets into it.

[Anubis]

And after 6 months it's only 400km per charge, cause the air filter would get dirty..

[Mikedogg]

Nice idea, but my only gripe is; does the "DC Current" get converted in "AC Current." If so, wouldn't sitting that close to a giant AC generator be dentrimetial to you health Eg: Cancer.

[scoter man1]

Originally Posted by Mikedogg

Nice idea, but my only gripe is; does the "DC Current" get converted in "AC Current." If so, wouldn't sitting that close to a giant AC generator be dentrimetial to you health Eg: Cancer.

How? Its just magnetic fields. Its not emitting microwaves or anything.

[mandex]

Originally Posted by scoter man1

How? Its just magnetic fields. Its not emitting microwaves or anything.

Ham, microwaves are just magnectic fields.

But a microwave doesn't give you cancer.

[Brasky]

Originally Posted by BLEH!

Cool idea, but would go VERY wrong if even a single drop of water gets into it.

so... what do you think you should not do? "Dr Dr It Hurts when hit the wall"

[Brasky]

Originally Posted by mandex

Ham, microwaves are just magnectic fields.

But a microwave doesn't give you cancer.

Then it's the only thing on earth that doesn't

[IcE]

Originally Posted by BLEH!

Cool idea, but would go VERY wrong if even a single drop of water gets into it.

Originally Posted by Anubis

And after 6 months it's only 400km per charge, cause the air filter would get dirty..

Why does everyone immediately start knocking on new technologies due to what they perceive as lack of practicality?

[BLEH!]

Originally Posted by ice445

Why does everyone immediately start knocking on new technologies due to what they perceive as lack of practicality?

I'm not knocking it for lack of practicality. I'm a PhD chemist; I know how batteries work and I know, for a fact, that Li + H2O = bad, especially here.

[IcE]

Originally Posted by BLEH!

I'm not knocking it for lack of practicality. I'm a PhD chemist; I know how batteries work and I know, for a fact, that Li + H2O = bad, especially here.

I'm not a PhD yet but nice to see someone else in the field.

But I wasn't trying to say you were wrong, it just seemed like you were implying it would never be practical because of moisture entering from the air or something.

[EspHack]

i would like a nuclear powered car

[thatguy91]

There really isn't enough lithium to support making every car of the future into hybrid of electric, the damage of mining that amount of lithium from the environment would be far worse than (initially) developing butanol biofuels, and making 100 percent biodiesel (dry land farming of high oil content drought tolerant species). The other difference is improperly maintained engines just stop working. Improperly maintained fast charging lithium batteries could pose a major health and environmental risk if they explode or catch on fire, and you can guarantee that a typical (not current hybrid or electric car buyer) won't properly maintain the batteries or vehicle. Not saying shouldn't try, just that it would be better to do what we can now, and develop a true battery alternative for later that is actually 'safe' (say, polymer based technology).

[IcE]

Originally Posted by thatguy91

There really isn't enough lithium to support making every car of the future into hybrid of electric, the damage of mining that amount of lithium from the environment would be far worse than (initially) developing butanol biofuels, and making 100 percent biodiesel (dry land farming of high oil content drought tolerant species). The other difference is improperly maintained engines just stop working. Improperly maintained fast charging lithium batteries could pose a major health and environmental risk if they explode or catch on fire, and you can guarantee that a typical (not current hybrid or electric car buyer) won't properly maintain the batteries or vehicle. Not saying shouldn't try, just that it would be better to do what we can now, and develop a true battery alternative for later that is actually 'safe' (say, polymer based technology).

Biodiesel is a joke considering we barely have enough crop space to feed the population as is, let alone an entire extra species known as cars.

I still believe hydrogen is the only real alternative. Once fusion power is working on an economic scale we'll have free hydrogen forever.

[JJayzX]

Magnetic fields and microwaves are completely different. Magnetic fields can mess with your brain, I would think it would require an extreme amount of power and time to be able to damage DNA enough to cause cancer from a magnetic field but you can enjoy seeing dead people til then.

I'm pretty sure there is special filters and the sort to prevent moisture from reaching the battery or it would be a no go from the start.

Also, I don't see how fusion power would give us free hydrogen when it consumes hydrogen to make helium. We have to extract hydrogen from other things to use it, so it will never be free.

[IcE]

Originally Posted by JJayzX

Magnetic fields and microwaves are completely different. Magnetic fields can mess with your brain, I would think it would require an extreme amount of power and time to be able to damage DNA enough to cause cancer from a magnetic field but you can enjoy seeing dead people til then.

I'm pretty sure there is special filters and the sort to prevent moisture from reaching the battery or it would be a no go from the start.

Also, I don't see how fusion power would give us free hydrogen when it consumes hydrogen to make helium. We have to extract hydrogen from other things to use it, so it will never be free.

You start the plants off with hydrogen obtained from refining natural gas, and then you use the immense electricity generated to create an infinite and clean supply from water. Problems solved.

[thatguy91]

Originally Posted by ice445

Biodiesel is a joke considering we barely have enough crop space to feed the population as is, let alone an entire extra species known as cars.

I still believe hydrogen is the only real alternative. Once fusion power is working on an economic scale we'll have free hydrogen forever.

Not really. No offence, but growing things like corn etc for biofuel is stupid, growing crops for biodiesel is a little different. One example of a good suggested crop is a species of mustard seed that can grow in semi-arid regions and gives you 50 percent oil (and the rest of the mass can be used for butanol production). There are vast expanses of cropland which isn't suitable for crop production anymore due to either marginal rainfall (mustard seed grows in areas where wheat etc can't), and in areas where there is crop production you can use it as part of crop rotation. Crop rotation is better for the soil and reduces the need for pesticides and herbicides. Mustard seed as a crop can be harvested, like many other things, by existing equipment.

In terms of food, a lot of it in supermarkets etc gets thrown out - a lot of people aren't aware of that. On top of that, people who actually buy food probably throw some out too (even potato skins and carrot peel), it all adds up.

To get the amount of lithium required for worldwide hybrid and electric cars would be very environmentally irresponsible, let alone the dangers as I pointed out earlier. Hydrogen is no better. Sure, you may look after your hydrogen tanks, but you can guarantee others won't. Its much harder to manage than LPG, which is used here in Australia (including some LPG once cars like the Falcon EcoLPi.

The other main issue with Hydrogen is getting the hydrogen in the first place. To get hydrogen from water requires vast amounts of energy, even with the use of catalysts, to the extent that the energy used to get the hydrogen exceeds the energy required to power a traditionally powered vehicle.

I'm not saying nothing should be done, just the development is a process that takes time. The above suggestion for butanol and biodiesel can be used to supplement current supplies until such time that there is a feasible alternative. In the meantime advances in efficiency can be used to reduce the fuel use of future engines.

[k1net1cs]

...who'd ever thought reading a thread related to battery development can make me hungry. =|
Now where's that delivery phone number...

[Texter]

Originally Posted by BLEH!

Cool idea, but would go VERY wrong if even a single drop of water gets into it.

And all the oxygen molecules are released again once you recharge the car so it could be risky if you start recharging (a bunch of cars) in a poorly ventilated garage/underground car park/etc. Not only the chance of a fire starting by electrostatic discharges but it could also cause hyperoxia.

[BLEH!]

I know they might be heavy, but hell lead-acid batteries deliver a crap load of power on demand. Don't see why i wouldn't work with tin either, which is a practically non-toxic yet displays the same variable oxidation states of lead. Oh, god, I've turned G3D into a chemistry forum XD!

[Texter]

Maybe you'll get a kick out of this one I found at extremetech:

[Mikedogg]

Originally Posted by scoter man1

How? Its just magnetic fields. Its not emitting microwaves or anything.

You're not looking at the bigger picture. The questions is, does that "DC Current" get converted to "AC" (because AC does let off a type of radiation compared to DC), if that's the case, is all the radiation emitting counterparts shielded.

Don't believe me about AC letting off radiation, try standing under a "Pylon" or next to a "substation" for a while and tell me different.

Originally Posted by mandex

Ham, microwaves are just magnectic fields.

But a microwave doesn't give you cancer.

Not to sure about this one. Are "Microwaves" still banned in certain parts of "Russia." Either way, wave a fluorescent bulb in front of a dodgy or broken one and see if it lights up. You'll get your answer then on just how safe they really are.

Besides, Microwaves Emmit radiation. Yes there are different types of radiation, but from my research microwaves Emmit the cancer causing type... I have been wrong before.

[SamW]

Originally Posted by Mikedogg

Besides, Microwaves Emmit radiation. Yes there are different types of radiation, but from my research microwaves Emmit the cancer causing type... I have been wrong before.

Microwaves ovens are ~2.4Ghz EM radiation, the same thing that powers your router...

[thatguy91]

Microwaves work because the frequency they operate on is the same as the natural resonance frequency of water. This causes the water to heat up, which heats up the food product you have in the Microwave. Since most food has water it is...

In terms of radiation, you shouldn't put your head down in front of a microwave, but thats just common sense! The simple fact is you cannot avoid radiation so deal with it . In fact, basically everything around you is radioactive to some extent, including yourself (your body contains Carbon-14 for example). 'Cancer causing' is a little misleading of a term, and its an indirect process. Radiation (including sun UV) can cause cell damage. This cell damage provides a pathway for viruses to enter the cell. You may not be aware, but viruses do not reproduce by themselves, they literally use your bodies own cell replication mechanism to replicate themselves. In this sense, once you have any virus, it becomes part of you! These viruses also behave differently when it comes to damaged cells, with the effect depending on the actual virus. For example, cervical cancer is caused by the Human Papillomavirus, which is why there is now a cervical cancer vaccine. The vaccine works through your bodies defences again HPV. Skin cancer is believed to be caused by the virus that causes warts, so there is potential for a skin cancer vaccine within a few years (getting burnt is still a bad thing as cell damage still occurs. If you don't end up with cancer you'll still look prematurely aged). In fact, almost all cancers are believed to be causes by viruses, many of which are yet to be known . In the cases where viruses aren't found to be the direct cause (in that its Human DNA), its believed the code is there in our DNA due to previous viral exposure. Its why viruses appear to be so different from human cells, including the proteins produces etc.

Anyways what I am saying is a little bit of radiation won't hurt you, and it depends on the type of radiation. Radiation is also cumulative.

When it comes to car batteries, lead acid batteries aren't exactly the best for human health either. I think a lot of people may be shocked if they look up lead acid battery recycling (if you can find the hidden 'human cost' amongst all the positive links) and see how nasty it can actually be. Sure, they definitely should be recycled, but in the world of corporate interest (which is the thing that helps drive development in the first place) there will always be the 'other side of the story'. The 'other side of the story' is what people don't see in terms of hybrid and electric vehicles, and basically everything else related. Simple fact is its also consumer driven. If recycling was done with 100 percent environmental and health concerns in mind, your next car battery would probably cost considerably more. As the world evolves towards lithium technology (if they can source enough lithium for widescale vehicle use without too much environmental damage through the specifics of lithium mining), there is the real risk of a greater human cost through the most 'cost effective' means of recycling the lithium batteries...

[HeavyHemi]

Originally Posted by thatguy91

Microwaves work because the frequency they operate on is the same as the natural resonance frequency of water. This causes the water to heat up, which heats up the food product you have in the Microwave. Since most food has water it is...

In terms of radiation, you shouldn't put your head down in front of a microwave, but thats just common sense! The simple fact is you cannot avoid radiation so deal with it . In fact, basically everything around you is radioactive to some extent, including yourself (your body contains Carbon-14 for example). 'Cancer causing' is a little misleading of a term, and its an indirect process. Radiation (including sun UV) can cause cell damage. This cell damage provides a pathway for viruses to enter the cell. You may not be aware, but viruses do not reproduce by themselves, they literally use your bodies own cell replication mechanism to replicate themselves. In this sense, once you have any virus, it becomes part of you! These viruses also behave differently when it comes to damaged cells, with the effect depending on the actual virus. For example, cervical cancer is caused by the Human Papillomavirus, which is why there is now a cervical cancer vaccine. The vaccine works through your bodies defences again HPV. Skin cancer is believed to be caused by the virus that causes warts, so there is potential for a skin cancer vaccine within a few years (getting burnt is still a bad thing as cell damage still occurs. If you don't end up with cancer you'll still look prematurely aged). In fact, almost all cancers are believed to be causes by viruses, many of which are yet to be known . In the cases where viruses aren't found to be the direct cause (in that its Human DNA), its believed the code is there in our DNA due to previous viral exposure. Its why viruses appear to be so different from human cells, including the proteins produces etc.

Anyways what I am saying is a little bit of radiation won't hurt you, and it depends on the type of radiation. Radiation is also cumulative.

When it comes to car batteries, lead acid batteries aren't exactly the best for human health either. I think a lot of people may be shocked if they look up lead acid battery recycling (if you can find the hidden 'human cost' amongst all the positive links) and see how nasty it can actually be. Sure, they definitely should be recycled, but in the world of corporate interest (which is the thing that helps drive development in the first place) there will always be the 'other side of the story'. The 'other side of the story' is what people don't see in terms of hybrid and electric vehicles, and basically everything else related. Simple fact is its also consumer driven. If recycling was done with 100 percent environmental and health concerns in mind, your next car battery would probably cost considerably more. As the world evolves towards lithium technology (if they can source enough lithium for widescale vehicle use without too much environmental damage through the specifics of lithium mining), there is the real risk of a greater human cost through the most 'cost effective' means of recycling the lithium batteries...

Nah. Dielectric heating. Works on cooking oils and fats too. The resonant frequency of water is closer to 20Ghz. As an aside, it's estimated that 97% of lead acid batteries are recycled.