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  (#101)
Mufflore
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Thumbs down 04-24-2012, 16:57 | posts: 9,775 | Location: UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Noisiv View Post
There are some benchies on NV Forums.

Even with 680 SLI and 1920x1080, there is 5-10% difference.
And about 50% difference on 5760x1080.

(Bars are bit weird. They represent min,max,avg over two runs)

 Click to show spoiler
Thanks, good info!
   
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  (#102)
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Default 04-24-2012, 17:43 | posts: 7,068

Quote:
Originally Posted by isidore View Post
Yes, because you can reach 4.8 - 5.0 ghz on air with lower temps. Also the little to non difference in performance makes IB a really bad choice tbh. I wanted to get it, but now i think i'm gonna go with the 2700k for a year or so until a new revision of IB comes out.
Why would you or any other Sandy Bridge user upgrade to Ivy Bridge?
It's like upgrading from Lynfield i7 8xx to Bloomfield i7 9xx, minus the socket switch
   
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  (#103)
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Default 04-24-2012, 17:54 | posts: 828 | Location: Montreal

Honestly, Ivy is just bad. you can sugar coat it all you want, but what people were expecting here was just a die shrink with improvements; not intel adding new tech using us as guinea pigs. Everyone was expecting 5ghz to be an easier OC to achieve with lower volts/heat, in which case Ivy would have been a big success. Hell it struggles to reach 4.8ghz without making your room as hot as a sauna...

If you're buying Ivy now, you're accepting the fact that you're going to settle for flaws you already know are going to be there. Why bother?

Last edited by Virtue; 04-24-2012 at 17:56.
   
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  (#104)
fr33k
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Default 04-24-2012, 18:11 | posts: 1,822 | Location: USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Virtue View Post
If you're buying Ivy now, you're accepting the fact that you're going to settle for flaws you already know are going to be there. Why bother?
because i have amd.

Only certain people expect to OC. I see no use for it. Too many diminishing returns.
   
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  (#105)
Mufflore
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Default 04-24-2012, 18:13 | posts: 9,775 | Location: UK

What diminishing returns are those?
   
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  (#106)
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Default 04-24-2012, 18:22 | posts: 4,182 | Location: Oakland, CA, US

Quote:
Originally Posted by Virtue View Post
If you're buying Ivy now, you're accepting the fact that you're going to settle for flaws you already know are going to be there. Why bother?
Because upgrade. Also high end CPU water cooling.
   
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  (#107)
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Default 04-24-2012, 19:10 | posts: 5,657 | Location: Timisoara, Romania

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sash View Post
Why would you or any other Sandy Bridge user upgrade to Ivy Bridge?
It's like upgrading from Lynfield i7 8xx to Bloomfield i7 9xx, minus the socket switch
Well i'm not. I've decided, going with the i7 2700k with the asus p8z77v-deluxe (a push of a button and the cpu goes to 4.7ghz)..awesome board. Also the Noctua C14 will help keep the 2700k at 4.7ghz pretty cool.
   
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  (#108)
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Default 04-24-2012, 19:22 | posts: 6,722 | Location: Bristol, UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by kapu View Post
I'm on i5 750 @ 4.0GHz ( The OLD dog ) and i still dont see the point of upgrade.

And i wanted to spend some money big time.
I'm with you, I think my i5 750 + 460 SLI system will last me a while yet
   
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  (#109)
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Default 04-24-2012, 19:22 | posts: 10,733 | Location: Finland

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sash View Post
Why would you or any other Sandy Bridge user upgrade to Ivy Bridge?
It's like upgrading from Lynfield i7 8xx to Bloomfield i7 9xx, minus the socket switch
I am upgrading another rig that gets stuff from my computer (GPU+CPU+RAM+MOBO) so I need new stuff to replace them.
   
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  (#110)
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Default 04-24-2012, 19:29 | posts: 155 | Location: TechLand

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mufflore View Post
Have you any proof that it is better than 4 x PCI-e 2.0 x16?
Did you look at those 2 videos? just skim them quickly and start watching when he points to gpu usage and fps.

With 2.0 ~70-80fps, with 3.0 ~125-130fps


Yes 2.0 is ok if you have 2-3 gpus max, but 4 can be tricky at uber high resolutions.



more on topic;

Anandtech's quote looked good

Quote:
The process is still young and likely biased a bit towards the lower leakage characteristics of lower voltage/lower wattage CPUs, such as those that would be used in Ultrabooks. These two factors combined with some architectural decisions focused on increasing power efficiency result in what many of you may have heard by now: Ivy Bridge won't typically overclock as high as Sandy Bridge on air.

The frequency delta isn't huge. You'll still be able to hit 4.44.6GHz without resorting to exotic cooling, but success in the 4.85.0GHz range will be limited to water alone for most. Ivy Bridge is also far more sensitive to voltage than Sandy Bridge. Heat dissipation can increase significantly as a function of voltage, so you'll want to stay below 1.3V in your overclocking attempts.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5771/t...3770k-review/4

And this looks interesting too, there is new article about undervotling and overclocking
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5763/u...-on-ivy-bridge

Last edited by TechFreaK; 04-24-2012 at 19:33.
   
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  (#111)
Mufflore
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Default 04-24-2012, 19:36 | posts: 9,775 | Location: UK

Thanks.
Noisiv explained it too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TechFreaK View Post
And this looks interesting too, there is new article about undervotling and overclocking
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5763/u...-on-ivy-bridge
Yeah I go through a similar method when clocking.

Last edited by Mufflore; 04-24-2012 at 20:13.
   
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  (#112)
IPlayNaked
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Default 04-24-2012, 19:48 | posts: 6,559

Quote:
Originally Posted by Virtue View Post
Honestly, Ivy is just bad. you can sugar coat it all you want, but what people were expecting here was just a die shrink with improvements; not intel adding new tech using us as guinea pigs. Everyone was expecting 5ghz to be an easier OC to achieve with lower volts/heat, in which case Ivy would have been a big success. Hell it struggles to reach 4.8ghz without making your room as hot as a sauna...

If you're buying Ivy now, you're accepting the fact that you're going to settle for flaws you already know are going to be there. Why bother?
The problem isn't about pure volumes of heat that it produces, it's actually fairly efficient on that front.

The problem is that the heat doesn't get off the CPU die itself very well. It retains a lot of heat that even high end coolers seem to be having a problem removing efficiently.

That kind of problem isn't the room-heating kind.
   
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  (#113)
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Default 04-24-2012, 20:08 | posts: 2,949

Ivy overclocking not being room-heated kind of problem is just a consequence of small die size (160mm2)

and cooler not being able to take the heat of the die means that
heat generation per area is big

but the die area is fixed so we need new revision which will take care of the excess heat generation

how ever you look at it - this is about the heat

just found this...it looks like it's the room-heated kind of prob after all:

 Click to show spoiler


http://www.obr-hardware.com/2012/04/...ge-on-air.html

So it's more heat on less area. If those numbers are correct - this is a cooling disaster.

Last edited by Noisiv; 04-24-2012 at 20:17.
   
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  (#114)
IPlayNaked
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Default 04-24-2012, 20:22 | posts: 6,559

I think those graphs are misleading. I guess what they were going for is achieving the same or similar overclocks and what that required for each platform...

We know that Ivy just doesn't quite reach as well as Sandy. It's still decent, but not quite as good. That said, pumping 1.58v through Ivy is just asking for trouble. That's a voltage most people aren't comfortable putting through even Sandy.

What's more, power consumption at stock clocks, the low-end of the graph for the Ivy side...Should be lower. Why's it only 5w lower?
   
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  (#115)
Mufflore
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Default 04-24-2012, 20:23 | posts: 9,775 | Location: UK

If they split the CPU die in 2 and spread them further apart, even say 3mm, either by empty die space or an actual gap, it would help dissipate heat into the CPU cap a bit quicker.
It may need a small amount extra cache on each segment to compensate which might offset the benefit.
There may be mileage in the method.
   
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  (#116)
teleguy
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Default 04-24-2012, 20:28 | posts: 1,107

Quote:
Originally Posted by IPlayNaked View Post
The problem isn't about pure volumes of heat that it produces, it's actually fairly efficient on that front.

The problem is that the heat doesn't get off the CPU die itself very well. It retains a lot of heat that even high end coolers seem to be having a problem removing efficiently.

That kind of problem isn't the room-heating kind.
This is from a german review:

"In addition, Sandy Bridges were still clean soldered to the heat spreader, which facilitates the transfer of heat. As things are now in order for Intel to cut costs this is no longer the case with Ivy Bridge so heat is now trapped under the IHS, the cooler can not do anything against that."

Last edited by teleguy; 04-24-2012 at 20:37.
   
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  (#117)
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Default 04-24-2012, 20:29 | posts: 3,747 | Location: Australia

I wonder how much extra heat will be generated at the CPU level when the voltage regulator is included on-die next year with Haswell?
   
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fr33k
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Default 04-24-2012, 20:34 | posts: 1,822 | Location: USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mufflore View Post
What diminishing returns are those?
if I spend 300$ on water cooling just to get a 5ghz oc and reduce the life of the processor by a considerable amount. I'm spending twice as much when I could simply upgrade each year instead.
Also i could never resell for even half the price.

Last edited by fr33k; 04-24-2012 at 20:36.
   
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Mufflore
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Default 04-24-2012, 20:45 | posts: 9,775 | Location: UK

You can overclock quite a lot on air, beyond that its diminishing returns, so why not just clock a 2500K/2600K a bit higher on air?
You will save money and get practically the same performance.
   
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IPlayNaked
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Default 04-24-2012, 20:59 | posts: 6,559

Quote:
Originally Posted by fr33k View Post
if I spend 300$ on water cooling just to get a 5ghz oc and reduce the life of the processor by a considerable amount. I'm spending twice as much when I could simply upgrade each year instead.
Also i could never resell for even half the price.
Decent water cooling can be had for more like 100-150.
   
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fr33k
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Default 04-24-2012, 21:01 | posts: 1,822 | Location: USA

true, but clock for clock IB still wins so if i want my moderate OC at say... 4.5 which is before it hits thermal limit it still sits around 5% increase and I get PCI-e 3.0 access for future.
   
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thatguy91
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Default 04-24-2012, 21:22 | posts: 3,747 | Location: Australia

Quote:
Originally Posted by fr33k View Post
true, but clock for clock IB still wins so if i want my moderate OC at say... 4.5 which is before it hits thermal limit it still sits around 5% increase and I get PCI-e 3.0 access for future.
Exactly. There are only really two kinds of people that would go higher than that:
- Noobs (including idiots who think they know better)
- Enthusiasts, who have proper cooling set up.

You need a baseline of the room being the warmest its likely to get when using the computer, and the CPU running 100 percent, with an eye on temperatures. If 4.9 is not stable and you think 4.8Ghz is stable, the sensible thing would not be to use 4.8...! (4.7Ghz is more sensible)
   
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  (#123)
Mufflore
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Default 04-24-2012, 21:25 | posts: 9,775 | Location: UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by fr33k View Post
true, but clock for clock IB still wins so if i want my moderate OC at say... 4.5 which is before it hits thermal limit it still sits around 5% increase and I get PCI-e 3.0 access for future.
Yeah but you cant clock it quite as high, so it balances out for performance and costs less.
Whatever difference there is will be small anyway and not worth the money.
   
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  (#124)
MrH
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Default 04-24-2012, 21:30 | posts: 1,973 | Location: UK

I will probably stick at 4.5GHz, that's plenty for me. Now I just need the bloody things to go on sale!
   
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  (#125)
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Default 04-24-2012, 21:32 | posts: 8,109 | Location: United Kingdom

Quote:
Originally Posted by fr33k View Post
if I spend 300$ on water cooling just to get a 5ghz oc and reduce the life of the processor by a considerable amount. I'm spending twice as much when I could simply upgrade each year instead.
Also i could never resell for even half the price.
A decent water cooling setup stays with you for future builds allowing higher overclocks, extending the chip's life and keeping noise levels down. It's well worth it in the long run.
   
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