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View Poll Results: Do you use vsync?
If yes why? 192 62.14%
If No why? 117 37.86%
Voters: 309. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
  (#51)
stefik
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Default 03-06-2011, 15:20 | posts: 179 | Location: Poland

Never. Just becouse I don't like it.
   
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  (#52)
Infinity7_00
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Default 03-06-2011, 15:37 | posts: 578 | Location: USA west coast

I never have vsync on. In Quake engine multiplayer shooter games the game engine calculates how many packets to upload to the server based on your fps that are happening at that moment. This is described at this URL:
http://bashandslash.com/index.php?op...969&Itemid=106
To have a competitive edge I pay attention to that information and tweak accordingly. If player has tweaked game config file with com_maxfps 100 and cl_maxpackets 100 then his PC will always be sending 100 packets to the server at any given moment provided that his PC stays at 100 fps or greater the whole time. On the other hand if he has vsync on then he's capped at 60 fps (for most players, not those with 120Hz or 75Hz monitors) and he's consistently sending less than 60 packets to the server at any given moment.

Also when people first started using LCD monitors as opposed to CRT there were discussions about tearing and people reviewing the monitors were saying that Samsung monitors that used the TN technology had little or no tearing. I've always used Samsung LCD monitors or TV mostly. I'm on a Samsung LED TV now. I suspect that most of you who use vsync to stop the tearing are not using Samsung monitors or TV's or don't have a real high-end PC. Real powerful CPU's push data to the GPU's faster.

Anyway, I don't want everybody to have vsync off like me cuz some of you will be on the opposing team against me in shooter games and if you're on the other team I'll be hoping that you have vsync on.
:-)
   
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  (#53)
bliss007
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Default 03-06-2011, 15:44 | posts: 1,587 | Location: Glasgow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiga View Post
Hahaha, so you haven't used Triple Buffering still!.

Because, using Triple Buffering <not render Ahead frames> eliminates the input lag generated onscreen using only-Vsync option.

Edit -

I also think Triple Buffering with Crossfire has some issues..

He is CORRECT you sir are wrong !

TB adds to input lag, more noticeable on MP games !
   
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  (#54)
fellix
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Default 03-06-2011, 15:47 | posts: 73

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiga View Post
Vsync + Triple Buffering<not the stupid render ahead 3 frames> = GPU renders 100 frames, there are 2 back buffers(memory footprint increases), where the latest frames from those 2 back buffers are sent to the front buffer and those 60 frames (+ containing the latest updated frames from the GPU) are outputted to the monitor
..
Small correction. The triple buffering adds a second front buffer, not back buffer. Then the GPU simply switches between the two front buffers when the data must be sent to the display.
And there is really no delay in introducing a third buffer in this case, because the GPU actually continues to render the pixel data into the same single back buffer, i.e. there's no extra work "ahead" that must be done. The two front buffers are there simply to serve as a display "cache" and the switching between them is seamless. Adding a second front buffer makes the frame-rate drop in the case of enabled V'sync more gradual, e.g. smooth, and not choppy.
   
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  (#55)
bliss007
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Default 03-06-2011, 15:49 | posts: 1,587 | Location: Glasgow

There is a delay and if you go and read any good guide you would know that !

Enable TB and go online and you stand a far better chance of getting your a$$ kicked due to input lag !

I think "Tweakguides" explains it pretty good !


http://www.tweakguides.com/Graphics_10.html

Last edited by bliss007; 03-06-2011 at 15:53.
   
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  (#56)
RIPROCK
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Default 03-06-2011, 16:18 | posts: 17 | Location: Manchester

Quote:
Originally Posted by sykozis View Post
I enable vsync if, and only IF, screen tearing occurs.

@Raiga...please stop posting... or at least do some actual research first. And what's this "excessive gpu usage"??? There's no such thing as "excessive GPU usage".. GPU's are designed to be able to run safely at full load for extended periods of time. Every time I read one of your posts, I feel this need to beat my head against a wall.



wow...try buying a decent monitor...

"as long as your game runs with FPS more than your refresh rate, the tearing always occurs" <---more BS....


http://www.tweakguides.com/Graphics_1.html is a very good read and explains a lot.

Also on the subject of tearing,yes it occurs ALWAYS when you dont have vsync on.This is irrespective of the frame rate being greater or smaller than your monitor refresh rate.The reason for this is in the name...VERTICAL SYNC,when you dont sync to monitor refresh the game will display frames as fast as it can render them so instead of a steady stream of frames going at 1/60th of a second you get for instance a frame that renders quicker(say 1/100th of a second)the result of the this is one element of the new frame showing whilst also having the previous frame still present thus producing the tearing effect.

Now if we drop below the 1/60th to say 1/40th of a second the previous frame remains in view and will not be synced so that the next frame again partially shows itself.NOW WHETHER ITS VIEWABLE or not depends on a whole heap of factors.For instance some of the frames will just by virtue of there being so many of them line up perfectly with monitor refresh and not show any obvious tearing,and at other times every other frame will miss the refresh cycle and show up blatanly.This happens on crt AND lcd.Tearing is most noticeable when moving across the horizontal plane on straight vertical objects like lamposts,building edges etc.All the above is based on a 60hz monitor of course.

Speaking of 60hz monitors several people(well 1 at least ) have mentioned that they use vysnc to stay at 60fps because they can`t tell the difference when it goes to 120,180,400 etc.I`m convinced this is why some people don`t believe that a 120hz monitor is smoother because they witness games running at 120 fps or higher on there 60 hz displays and can`t see it running any smoother and so conclude that anything above 60 is a waste.I`m pretty sure what they don`t understand is that fraps is telling them the rate the GRAPHICS card is pumping out......it`s NOT the amount of frames you are seeing however.Your STILL seeing only 60 fps despite fraps telling you that you have 120....60 is ALL you will see vsync on or off.It`s like watching all those youtube vids that are running at 30 fps,doesnt matter if the game thats being recorded is running at 300 fps....your still only seeing 30.

I have a 120 hz lcd screen and can tell from experience that running with vsync and tripplebuffering on leads to almost zero PERCEPTIBLE lag (there is of course some lag ) due to you not having to wait more than 1/120th of a second for new input to display.Playing at 60 fps on a 60 hz screen i must admit i used to feel quite a bit of lag with vsync and TP on,i always remember doom 3 being particularly bad on the title screen,the mouse felt VERY floaty.

Anywho,vsync and tp on for me is my vote,more than ANY image quality issue tearing is by far the worst for me.I can cope with aliasing,but a torn image when the game is doing a smooth pan snaps me out of the moment more than any other thing.Now for quake style fast action online shooters i can see the point in turning it off aswell as some eyecandy to maintain best possible frame rates.But for single player games offline Vsync and tp make games look so much smoother..... especially at 120hz/fps
   
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  (#57)
bliss007
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Default 03-06-2011, 16:36 | posts: 1,587 | Location: Glasgow

1) Tearing "CAN" occur not "WILL" occur, I think I would know if it was on my screen !

2) Your at 120hz so input lag will be less than peeps on 60HZ, common sense !

3) I am on a Sony FW900 (better than any LCD) so get zero lag and do not need mess with 3rd party App's to get things working.

Please do not talk for others, only time I have seen tearing in the flesh in on 60HZ (and the older 4:3 75/85HZ) LCD's.

If my perception was poor and I could not see my screen tearing I would be happy to game on a LCD but as I like rich colours and white whites and black blacks I game on the FW900 !

Last edited by bliss007; 03-06-2011 at 16:40.
   
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  (#58)
RIPROCK
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Default 03-06-2011, 16:42 | posts: 17 | Location: Manchester

Quote:
Originally Posted by bliss007 View Post
1) Tearing "CAN" occur not "WILL occur, I think I would know if it was on my screen !

2) Your at 120hz so input lag will be less than peeps on 60HZ, common sense !

3) I am on a Sony FW900 (better than any LCD) so get zero lag and do not need mess with 3rd party App's to get things working.

Please do not talk for others, only time I have seen tearing in the flesh in on 60HZ (and the older 4:3 75/85HZ) LCD's
No your wrong i`m afraid.Tearing is always there when not vsynced.It`s "common sense" thats it`s less noticeable on mine and your screen because of higher refresh rates but it is there to greater or lesser degree`s.Think about it,if your card is ready to show a "frame" and your monitor is part way thru displaying the previous frame without the the restriction of vsync it`s going to attempt to display it.
   
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  (#59)
bliss007
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Default 03-06-2011, 16:49 | posts: 1,587 | Location: Glasgow

You think I am called Stevie Wonder and would not see tearing , I have seen tearing in the flesh so know what it looks like ?

CRT is less susceptible to it even at same HZ as LCD IMO.

If you read guides you will see the wording is something along the lines of :

"Tearing can occur", not "Tearing will occur" !

Again I think Tweakguides talks of it.
   
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  (#60)
dnottis
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Default 03-06-2011, 16:56 | posts: 670

Bought a 120hz LCD and never have to worry about vsync again, ever.
   
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  (#61)
Anarion
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Default 03-06-2011, 16:59 | posts: 10,898 | Location: Finland

I always use v-sync + tb and I use 71Hz for my display.
   
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  (#62)
RIPROCK
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Default 03-06-2011, 17:02 | posts: 17 | Location: Manchester

Quote:
Originally Posted by bliss007 View Post
You think I am called Stevie Wonder and would not see tearing , I have seen tearing in the flesh so know what it looks like ?

CRT is less susceptible to it even at same HZ as LCD IMO.

If you read guides you will see the wording is something along the lines of :

"Tearing can occur", not "Tearing will occur" !

Again I think Tweakguides talks of it.
I was thinking more along the lines of ray charles ,but seriously i did say in my original post that there are factors that make is visable or not.Yes it does seem less noticeable on crt`s(even i remember that from my crt days)but that doesnt mean it`s not happening.The higher the refresh the more diminished the tearing effect,240hz monitors should be very nice if they ever appear .Every single monitor be it crt or lcd i`ve seen i`ve always seen tearing,sometimes you have to look carefully for it but other times it`s very visable.

Think of it like input lag.EVERYONE of us has input lag ( see this article for an explanation http://www.anandtech.com/show/2803/1 )...the point at which it becomes noticeable is what we all difer on.....some people feel it more than others but there comes a point when it is so low it just can`t be felt.The same with tearing,there comes a point at which it`s just not as noticable....but that doesnt mean it`s not there.
   
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  (#63)
RIPROCK
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Default 03-06-2011, 17:13 | posts: 17 | Location: Manchester

Also this page in the anandtech article is quite interesting regarding crt vs lcd input lag http://www.anandtech.com/show/2803/6 .Yes the crt responds quicker but people may be surprsed at how close the LCD gets to it with vsync off...within 2 ms.And they suspect that may disappear if they were able to run the crt at the same res as the lcd,because of the frame rate advantage the crt was getting running at a lower res.Vsynced crt vs lcd was almost identical.
   
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  (#64)
Raiga
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Default 03-06-2011, 17:19 | posts: 1,048

Quote:
Originally Posted by fellix View Post
Small correction. The triple buffering adds a second front buffer, not back buffer. Then the GPU simply switches between the two front buffers when the data must be sent to the display.
And there is really no delay in introducing a third buffer in this case, because the GPU actually continues to render the pixel data into the same single back buffer, i.e. there's no extra work "ahead" that must be done. The two front buffers are there simply to serve as a display "cache" and the switching between them is seamless. Adding a second front buffer makes the frame-rate drop in the case of enabled V'sync more gradual, e.g. smooth, and not choppy.
Major correction buddy,

You don't know whats a frontbuffer.

Also

"In triple buffering the program has two back buffers and can immediately start drawing in the one that is not involved in such copying. The third buffer, the front buffer, is read by the graphics card to display the image on the monitor"

Quote:
He is CORRECT you sir are wrong !

TB adds to input lag, more noticeable on MP games !
I accept, that its my mistake that I forgot to add that..use Triple Buffering in Single Player Games_offline games only**

As for MP games, I never use Vsync....played CS a lot, I know what happens with Vsync + what happens if you don't put fps_max, cl_updaterate, cl_cmdrate, rate all of them substantially high..with the server reflecting similar settings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sykozis View Post
@Raiga...please stop posting... or at least do some actual research first. And what's this "excessive gpu usage"??? There's no such thing as "excessive GPU usage".. GPU's are designed to be able to run safely at full load for extended periods of time. Every time I read one of your posts, I feel this need to beat my head against a wall.
When I meat "Excessive GPU USAGE", i meant GPU usage when your PC renders hundreds or thousands of FPS when you not actually in the game..like lets say... wait wait..I know one example..how about Starcraft 2.

Hmm how about inside a game, when you don't actually need 100% GPU usage all the time..hmm...how about Prince of Persia the Forgotten Sands..hmm.!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sykozis View Post
wow...try buying a decent monitor...
Give me Money, give me money for a 120 hertz display..Not everyone has a 120 hertz display, not many can afford it, and in my timezone there is no 120 hertz display in any of the stores..

Quote:
Originally Posted by sykozis View Post
"as long as your game runs with FPS more than your refresh rate, the tearing always occurs" <---more BS....
yes, can you PM me a video of game with more than 60 FPS..and fast camera moving Horizontally. Which doesn't have screen tearing..
   
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  (#65)
bliss007
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Default 03-06-2011, 17:41 | posts: 1,587 | Location: Glasgow

Quote:
Originally Posted by RIPROCK View Post
Also this page in the anandtech article is quite interesting regarding crt vs lcd input lag http://www.anandtech.com/show/2803/6 .Yes the crt responds quicker but people may be surprsed at how close the LCD gets to it with vsync off...within 2 ms.And they suspect that may disappear if they were able to run the crt at the same res as the lcd,because of the frame rate advantage the crt was getting running at a lower res.Vsynced crt vs lcd was almost identical.

There is no guidelines on how to measure a LCD, some Manu's use "Rise of the Pixel", others use "Fall of the pixel" others use a totally different method !

What this means is 1 Manu claiming to be 2ms can be the same as another Manu's claim of 20ms !

None are even comparable to the virtually no lag in a CRT, if you wanted to BS figures to compare with LCD it would be a very long negative number for the CRT's lag.
   
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  (#66)
buddyfriendo
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Default 03-06-2011, 17:43 | posts: 3,419 | Location: New England - M@ss

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiga View Post
yes, can you PM me a video of game with more than 60 FPS..and fast camera moving Horizontally. Which doesn't have screen tearing..
Not everyone experiences screen tearing in every game, why can't you just accept that? I've had issues in the past with tearing in DODS with my 4870X2 that would come and go, it wasn't ALWAYS there. I'd format, using different drivers than before, load up the game with vsync off and not have a single issue, it rarely is a problem for me. Then again, on 3rd person games like Mafia II I just leave it on as input lag isn't an issue for me then. I don't care to force triple buffering as I'm not anal and really don't notice it all that often.

Your wrong, no ones perfect, get over it.

Last edited by buddyfriendo; 03-06-2011 at 17:50.
   
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  (#67)
GanjaStar
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Default 03-06-2011, 18:20 | posts: 551 | Location: Zagreb,Croatia

in single player games where immersion is key, i turn on tripple buffered v-sync.

in multiplayer titles never. in racing games never.
   
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  (#68)
fellix
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Default 03-06-2011, 18:30 | posts: 73

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiga View Post
Major correction buddy,

You don't know whats a frontbuffer.
Explain.
   
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  (#69)
chuuey
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Default 03-06-2011, 19:12 | posts: 203 | Location: Japan

using vsync and triple buffering - i hate tearing...
   
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  (#70)
pasanen
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Default 03-06-2011, 19:19 | posts: 35 | Location: Suomifinland Prkl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVuqVW4rq-o

Why? I hate lag! I've set my max pre-rendered frames frames in forceware to 1, and never enable vsync. And sometimes, like with FNV, I force it off via drivers if nothing else helps.
   
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  (#71)
Xtreme1979
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Default 03-06-2011, 19:24 | posts: 1,256 | Location: Bay City, MI

Cause I hate how tearing reduces image quality, and induces a headache.
   
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  (#72)
DerSchniffles
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Default 03-06-2011, 20:00 | posts: 1,028 | Location: Washington

I have to use vsync...its wierd to me how some people dont even notice it. I notice it right away and makes a game unplayable tbh. vsync + tripple buff ftw
   
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  (#73)
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Default 03-06-2011, 20:07 | posts: 4,457 | Location: Romania

Yes, although I used to never enable it before some months ago when I did some tests and noticed the improved image quality along with much smoother gameplay. There are some games that have a horrible mouse lag when it's enabled, in those cases I turn it off. But otherwise no way, even in competitive online games like BC2 for example it's allways on now.
   
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  (#74)
Saifz
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Default 03-06-2011, 20:09 | posts: 491 | Location: Toronto Canada

i ahve tried putting pre rendered frames to 0 but it still doesn help with the input lag =/
using d3d overidder + vsync, cod4
   
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  (#75)
RIPROCK
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Default 03-06-2011, 20:12 | posts: 17 | Location: Manchester

Quote:
Originally Posted by bliss007 View Post
There is no guidelines on how to measure a LCD, some Manu's use "Rise of the Pixel", others use "Fall of the pixel" others use a totally different method !

What this means is 1 Manu claiming to be 2ms can be the same as another Manu's claim of 20ms !

None are even comparable to the virtually no lag in a CRT, if you wanted to BS figures to compare with LCD it would be a very long negative number for the CRT's lag.
I`m not quoteing manu`s figures,im well aware off there somewhat suspect measureing methods ,i was merely quoteing the measured lag from the link to anadtech
   
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