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View Poll Results: Do you use vsync?
If yes why? 192 62.14%
If No why? 117 37.86%
Voters: 309. You may not vote on this poll

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  (#26)
kens30
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Default 03-06-2011, 10:54 | posts: 825 | Location: Greece/Australia

I always use vsync on all games or else a have tearing on my sumsung 60mhz tv/monitor
on fps online games all i do to reduce the input lag is to set in nvidia control panel render ahead from 3 to 1 and i have no lag at all.Also there is no reason to run with vsync off if you have a powerfull card,you reduce the heat and power consumption there is no reason to fully stress your card without vsync if the game utilizes example 30-50% of your card
   
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  (#27)
Tat3
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Default 03-06-2011, 11:10 | posts: 11,194 | Location: Finland

I only turn it on if I have problems without it. So it's off most of the time.
   
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  (#28)
Raiga
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Default 03-06-2011, 11:25 | posts: 1,017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mufflore View Post
I love you too

Any extra buffer adds another frame delay.
Theres no escaping that.
Wrong wrong wrong, the GPU doesn't render another frame..because its already rendered.

example with 100 FPS in a game, I am making it super simple..

No Vsync = GPU renders 100, the same 100 frames are outputted to the monitor.
Vsync = GPU renders 100 frames, with Vsync the 100 frames are buffered to 60 on the front buffer and only those 60 frames are sent to the outputted to the monitor
Vsync + Triple Buffering<not the stupid render ahead 3 frames> = GPU renders 100 frames, there are 2 back buffers(memory footprint increases), where the latest frames from those 2 back buffers are sent to the front buffer and those 60 frames (+ containing the latest updated frames from the GPU) are outputted to the monitor

with Triple Buffering, GPU doesn't render another 60 or 100 frames on top of the 100 frames already rendered with this option. <you didn't read the post did you, bcs I won't be trying to spam this sh't again>

The extra buffer only adds to extra memory usage.

On the cards which I have used, from past 3 years.
1. 4850
2. 5850
3. 6950

My experience.
No Vsync = No input lag + has screen tearing (+ excessive GPU usage in some cases)
Vsync = Input lag + has no screen tearing (+ lower GPU usage in some cases)
Vsync + Triple Buffering (enabled both via D3D overrider) = Very very very very negligible (in some games no input lag) + has no screen tearing (+ lower GPU usage than No Vsync, but an extremely tiny overhead over Vsync-only option)

So scores are
No Vsync = 1 + 0 (+0) = 1
Vsync = 0 + 1 (+0.5) = 1.5
Vsync + Triple Buffering (enabled both via D3D overrider) = 1 + 1 (+0.25) = 2.25

Vsync + Triple Buffering wins..

End of Story..
   
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  (#29)
Death_Lord
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Default 03-06-2011, 11:38 | posts: 692 | Location: Spain

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redemption80 View Post
I need it on, hate tearing with a passion, plus it also stops the card running several thousand FPS during menus/cutscenes, which will heat up the card more than most games do.
Quoted for truth
   
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  (#30)
tuco
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Default 03-06-2011, 11:42 | posts: 3,037 | Location: SoL 3

No, it has always (both colors) affected my mouse movements.
   
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  (#31)
Mufflore
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Default 03-06-2011, 11:43 | posts: 9,776 | Location: UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiga View Post
Wrong wrong wrong, the GPU doesn't render another frame..because its already rendered.

example with 100 FPS in a game, I am making it super simple..

No Vsync = GPU renders 100, the same 100 frames are outputted to the monitor.
Vsync = GPU renders 100 frames, with Vsync the 100 frames are buffered to 60 on the front buffer and only those 60 frames are sent to the outputted to the monitor
Vsync + Triple Buffering<not the stupid render ahead 3 frames> = GPU renders 100 frames, there are 2 back buffers(memory footprint increases), where the latest frames from those 2 back buffers are sent to the front buffer and those 60 frames (+ containing the latest updated frames from the GPU) are outputted to the monitor

with Triple Buffering, GPU doesn't render another 60 or 100 frames on top of the 100 frames already rendered with this option. <you didn't read the post did you, bcs I won't be trying to spam this sh't again>

The extra buffer only adds to extra memory usage.

On the cards which I have used, from past 3 years.
1. 4850
2. 5850
3. 6950

My experience.
No Vsync = No input lag + has screen tearing (+ excessive GPU usage in some cases)
Vsync = Input lag + has no screen tearing (+ lower GPU usage in some cases)
Vsync + Triple Buffering (enabled both via D3D overrider) = Very very very very negligible (in some games no input lag) + has no screen tearing (+ lower GPU usage than No Vsync, but an extremely tiny overhead over Vsync-only option)

So scores are
No Vsync = 1 + 0 (+0) = 1
Vsync = 0 + 1 (+0.5) = 1.5
Vsync + Triple Buffering (enabled both via D3D overrider) = 1 + 1 (+0.25) = 2.25

Vsync + Triple Buffering wins..

End of Story..

You seriously dont know what you are talking about.

If you dont use any extra buffering then you have not got ANY frames already pre-rendered, you have a single display file which is rendered to directly.
Take this as a starting point.
Adding the first buffer (double buffering) isolates rendering from the display, this adds an extra frame delay.
The second extra buffer (triple buffering) allows the GPU to process faster if it has enough power to do so but there is another frame delay.

Higher framerate reduces the time it takes to draw each extra buffer so a higher framerate will reduce the lag.
BUT to completely remove the lag from triple buffering you will need 3 times the framerate.
   
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  (#32)
BeoWulf_
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Default 03-06-2011, 12:34 | posts: 63 | Location: Denmark

depends on the game.. in most games i have it on, also newer FPS games, since i dont feel the imput lag on the mouse there, but in games like source, if i turn on V-sync my mouse sens is fu**ed, so i leave it off there.. ^^

But yea.. with a 120hz screen i cant see why not just leave Vsync on in most games.. :-)
   
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  (#33)
3dPlayer
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Default 03-06-2011, 12:38 | posts: 1,824

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyberdyne View Post
Depends on the game. In general I use it on racing games, fighting game and some RPG games. FPS games the input lag annoys me too much, and games where you constantly control the camera using the mouse annoy me. Really depends...
x2 same hear.

v-sync reduces power draw but its anoying in fps games cuz of the input mouse lag, ill try the triple buffering thing and post back.
   
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  (#34)
Nosgoth
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Default 03-06-2011, 12:45 | posts: 97

Only to stop the occasional capacitor whine and the gpu fan can go a bit crazy without it, some games cause this problem regardless of vsync being on or off, which is annoying
   
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  (#35)
3dPlayer
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Default 03-06-2011, 12:57 | posts: 1,824

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nosgoth View Post
Only to stop the occasional capacitor whine and the gpu fan can go a bit crazy without it, some games cause this problem regardless of vsync being on or off, which is annoying
The capacitor whine its because its using the gpu at full power, cuz if you can play a game with 100fps, the v-sync will only get u what the refresh of the monitor allows, and it works like a limiter, less power draw=less heat, less noise from the capacitors which are not so good.

With v-sync off i can run crysis 2 demo MP with 150fps(TFT 17), blocked at 60fps i have more input lag, the triple buffering its not working, maybe cuz i have sli, i dont know quiet yet, or maybe it is but its not so smooth as with it off.

Last edited by 3dPlayer; 03-06-2011 at 13:00.
   
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  (#36)
yo_cristi
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Default 03-06-2011, 13:02 | posts: 38 | Location: Romania

Yes at all games !!
   
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  (#37)
TruMutton_200Hz
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Default 03-06-2011, 13:02 | posts: 2,767 | Location: Belgium

Yes, I always have Vsync on because tearing makes me want to puke hard. Only sometimes, I use the TruMotion frame interpolation feature of my TV to upsample to a higher framerate but tearing causes its effect to be unsmooth, which then makes me want to puke even harder.

As fas a triple buffering goes, I believe this guy explains it very accurately: http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showtopic=169911
   
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  (#38)
3dPlayer
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Default 03-06-2011, 13:05 | posts: 1,824

from what i have read, it helps reducing the input lag but maybe not all of it and with v-sync off you have no lag at all, so if you can play with minimum/maximum frames of 61 or 121 then you should use it off, but only if fast paced games like first person shooters.Because in slow games you dont need all the frames you can get.

Last edited by 3dPlayer; 03-06-2011 at 13:12.
   
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  (#39)
Raiga
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Default 03-06-2011, 13:12 | posts: 1,017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mufflore View Post
You seriously dont know what you are talking about.

If you dont use any extra buffering then you have not got ANY frames already pre-rendered, you have a single display file which is rendered to directly.
Take this as a starting point.
Adding the first buffer (double buffering) isolates rendering from the display, this adds an extra frame delay.
The second extra buffer (triple buffering) allows the GPU to process faster if it has enough power to do so but there is another frame delay.

Higher framerate reduces the time it takes to draw each extra buffer so a higher framerate will reduce the lag.
BUT to completely remove the lag from triple buffering you will need 3 times the framerate.
to completely remove lag!!!..er..in a game I get around 90-100 FPS in a set location of a game, without Vsync in 4xRGSSAA full screen at 1680x1050 resolution with all graphics options max.

With my QUAD@2.2 GHZ_0.85v, and 6950 at -20% powertune.

When I enabled Vsync + Triple Buffering, I get a constant 60 FPS in the same set location in the game and I have almost negligible Input lag difference from "No-Vsync" option against "Vsync + Triple Buffereing" <using D3D Overrider>..

I am obviously not getting 120 FPS, or even 180 FPS in that game without Vsync.

From you, list out the theoretical GPU usage/FPS from your explanation then. Also if you can, could you list out probably input lag with Triple Buffering with the said FPS above!!. I am sure the graph will be exponential!..even if its possible in practicality!.

Also I want you to test the feature, using single card from the crossfire. Disable Crossfire and test it..

Last edited by Raiga; 03-06-2011 at 13:15.
   
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  (#40)
Mufflore
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Default 03-06-2011, 13:34 | posts: 9,776 | Location: UK

I sussed where you went wrong.
You said this
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiga View Post
If you want to use Vsync, always use it with Triple Buffering to reduce input lag.
Triple buffering doesnt reduce input lag, it increases it.
But it allows for higher framerate when using vsync.
Without any buffering, vsync (at 60Hz for this example) will cause framerate to run at 60Hz, 30Hz, 15Hz ... only, nothing inbetween.
The buffers allow the GPU to remain busier so if you cant quite make 60Hz, you get a framerate much closer to 60Hz than 30hz.

So originally, your problem wasnt input lag, it was vsync preventing the GPU from processing.
   
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  (#41)
3dPlayer
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Default 03-06-2011, 13:38 | posts: 1,824

Mufflore, nice avatar, so what is your recomendation because now im a little confused, but im testing right at this moment crysis 2 demo.Because v-sync really reduces the power draw from the gpus, and i use sli.So to play fast games like FPS just let it off if you dont have problems with tearing?
   
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  (#42)
Fusion_XT
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Default 03-06-2011, 13:41 | posts: 805 | Location: Netherlands

If your pc is up to it v-sync makes your games go smoother and removes tearing ...

Dont forget to enable Triple Buffering tho ..

I love 120FPS V-sync'd Crysis 2 with 3dVision !
   
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  (#43)
Mufflore
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Default 03-06-2011, 13:43 | posts: 9,776 | Location: UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr.noob View Post
Mufflore, nice avatar, so what is your recomendation because now im a little confused, but im testing right at this moment crysis 2 demo.Because v-sync really reduces the power draw from the gpus, and i use sli.So to play fast games like FPS just let it off if you dont have problems with tearing?
I wish I could tell you where I found the avatar, its a great artwork.
Not my doing though

Try with one card and see if triple buffering helps framerate and looks smoother.
Then you will know if its an SLI +TB issue.
   
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  (#44)
Raiga
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Default 03-06-2011, 13:50 | posts: 1,017

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mufflore View Post
I sussed where you went wrong.
You said this


Triple buffering doesnt reduce input lag, it increases it.
But it allows for higher framerate when using vsync.
Without any buffering, vsync (at 60Hz for this example) will cause framerate to run at 60Hz, 30Hz, 15Hz ... only, nothing inbetween.
The buffers allow the GPU to remain busier so if you cant quite make 60Hz, you get a framerate much closer to 60Hz than 30hz.

So originally, your problem wasnt input lag, it was vsync preventing the GPU from processing.
and

I rest my case.

Its still better than using no-Vsync or using Vsync-only, atleast on my PC.

Last edited by Raiga; 03-06-2011 at 13:53.
   
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  (#45)
Mufflore
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Default 03-06-2011, 13:53 | posts: 9,776 | Location: UK

I have no issue with that, it wasnt the topic.
I could only answer what you had written.
   
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  (#46)
TheHunter
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Default 03-06-2011, 14:17 | posts: 13,439 | Location: √╥

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyberdyne View Post
Depends on the game. In general I use it on racing games, fighting game and some RPG games. FPS games the input lag annoys me too much, and games where you constantly control the camera using the mouse annoy me. Really depends...
this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tat3 View Post
I only turn it on if I have problems without it. So it's off most of the time.
and this..
   
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  (#47)
kens30
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Default 03-06-2011, 14:38 | posts: 825 | Location: Greece/Australia

One question does triple buffering in Nvidia control panel work for dx 9,10,11 games, or is it only for open gl?
   
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  (#48)
collinvue
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Default 03-06-2011, 14:46 | posts: 48 | Location: Great Lakes

+

Very good thread!

Never bothered with vsync personally.

How many hours are spent testing drivers to get 2 fps more
or, to benchmarks scores of maybe .3% higher on a massive sli rig,
then put a 'rev limiter' on it...
   
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  (#49)
bliss007
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Default 03-06-2011, 15:11 | posts: 1,587 | Location: Glasgow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiga View Post
If you are using a 60 hertz refresh rate on your monitor and if your game renders more FPS than 60 while playing.. Then while moving the camera in the game you can notice that you will notice sections of the screen not matching, thats tearing.

Whether PCI or PCIE, it doesn't matter..as long as your game runs with FPS more than your refresh rate, the tearing always occurs.

[One exception is Divinity 2: The Dragon Knight Saga, on my friends PC eventhou you can CAP the game's FPS...the game still pumps more <fake like> frames and tearing is still visible]

If you want to use Vsync, always use it with Triple Buffering to reduce input lag.

Just google around on how to use it..With Rivatuner's D3D overrider is one way to use it.

Not true, tearing "CAN occur" it does not always esp on CRT over crappy LCD !

I game at 1920x1200 @ 100HZ but if game hits 200FPS I still do not see tearing (yes I know what tearing is as have seen on others PC's).

And the relationship between HZ and FPS i.e. 60HZ = 60FPS is not exactly the way most think it is !

V-Sync can make it fall as low as 45 or 30 (you see how 45 and 30 are related to 60) ?

I will try and find the site that does a better job than all others of trying to explain it in layman terms !

Poor LCD users can enable triple buffering but that adds to input lag for MP gaming so they are at a disadvantage !
   
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  (#50)
sykozis
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Default 03-06-2011, 15:19 | posts: 15,603 | Location: US East Coast

I enable vsync if, and only IF, screen tearing occurs.

@Raiga...please stop posting... or at least do some actual research first. And what's this "excessive gpu usage"??? There's no such thing as "excessive GPU usage".. GPU's are designed to be able to run safely at full load for extended periods of time. Every time I read one of your posts, I feel this need to beat my head against a wall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiga View Post
If you are using a 60 hertz refresh rate on your monitor and if your game renders more FPS than 60 while playing.. Then while moving the camera in the game you can notice that you will notice sections of the screen not matching, thats tearing.

Whether PCI or PCIE, it doesn't matter..as long as your game runs with FPS more than your refresh rate, the tearing always occurs.
wow...try buying a decent monitor...

"as long as your game runs with FPS more than your refresh rate, the tearing always occurs" <---more BS....
   
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