AMD Overclocking Guide

[Psychlone]

The difference in CPU temps are the cores and the socket, the socket usually being the higher of them because not only is it a cumulative temp from underneath the CPU, but it's never very accurate. The core temperatures is what you want to go by - they refer to diodes built into the CPU itself and give a much more accurate way to tell the temps that matter than any other way.
Then, there's the motherboard - this is usually the NorthBridge temperatures (or close to the NB), and they should always be at or less than 44-45*C.

Like I've said before, there's no way to just tell you what you should do for your fan configuration since your system is unique, but you'll figure it out through diligent testing.

Again, try to visualize how the air would look if you could see it - if it's coming in the bottom front and in from the rear, then you'd have a sort of a vortex traveling in a clockwise rotation - probably right in the upper middle of the case...but the top fan is going to cause some turbulence in that vortex...

You'll get it sooner or later, just go slowly and test every possible configuration that you can think of - one way is going to be better than all the rest, but again, no one is going to be able to tell you what that configuration is.

Good luck!

Psychlone

[main_shoby]

yeah .. well .. in peak load .. my Core 1-2-3-4 temps are like 50-49C and CPU is like 40 right there, the motherboard stays @ 30-33, whats the least safe temp for the cpu ?
i know i cannot go ahead of 60C for my cores .. but what abt the "CPU" .

[Psychlone]

Your socket temp doesn't matter in the least - if that's what you're looking at. Usually the CPU socket (referred to by most monitoring software as 'CPU') is lower (I think I said it wrong in my last post) than the cores, but doesn't matter at all, it's really just a way to see what the CPU's temp is if you've got no other way to monitor it since the sensor is actually under the CPU and not in it.
Running Everest Ultimate right now, my 'CPU' temp is 21*C, but my 'Core 1 - 4' are 32*C, which is the accurate temp that I need to pay attention to...never trust your socket temp, they're usually wrong or not a good reflection of what your CPU is actually operating at.

But, on the other side, 30-33*C is perfect for your motherboard! Keep that right there!!

Psychlone

[main_shoby]

yeah .. but im really jealous from your o\c + temps >_<.. i guess u live near me lol ..
miami is hot even in this part of the year,
when you say, do the math. to see whats capping the overclocking.
i know my each highest value .. can you please tell us one example, with imaginary valid top values? so i can get some idea how to do that math. also tell me, i got no multiplier there in my NB setting, i can only set clocks there in MHZ, what ever i set there. i see different value in CPU-Z, i set 24-26-2200mhz .. i see 2310mhz NB .. and its in memory tab, i see DC mode : Unguaged. how can NB chock my oc ? will i still have to set NB to right clock? even though its not effecting anything ( i think )
starting from my settings .. i know everything abt my highest mark of each component.
i cannot just match things up for stability. everything is falling off after 2940mhz -_-
i can get that thing stable @ 1.310 Vcore and rest on default .. what to check first to find better compatable clock ? >_< i just dont get it lol .. full stable + cool @ 2940mhz .. and cannot reach above tht =\
fsb = 210
multi = 14
which makes my nb 2310 and ht 2100
help me out in this again

edit :

just realized .. been 2 hrs running prime95 and my temps are 53-54C LOL
which is BAD ................ maan this is frusturating i have to put more time in ...

[cupper24]

Got a little bit of a chance to test the Isochronous Flow->VC1->UnitID Clumping with EVEREST in all tangible configurations, and the differences between having them all ENABLED and DISABLED were nill, and just because I'm a scientist by nature, I tried them all individually, coupled, etc.

There may have been a 10MB/s Copy difference which may not even point to those, because EVEREST values tend to fluctuate between boots. Nothing to even bat an eye at...

As far as Auto XPress and CPU Tweak, I saw no difference in functionality and/or performance. I will be testing these in-game once I get some benchies set-up, though, and will report results then.

@Psychlone: I haven't been able to pin down any methods for switching the memory channels in the M3A79-T, but will keep searching. Let me know if you find that info, I'll post back at the end of the day to update any finds I make. Would be nice to collect that extra 25Mhz I'm missing out on though (not to mention the 266 unaccounted for due to using an x2 )

@main_shoby: Damn, son! Mighty fine job running wires in that case. Only in that pic where the Mobo is sitting on the carpet (let me repeat CARPET), please please please tell me you put a static free bag under that SOB and you just can't tell from the angle of the pic. If not, you truly live on the edge my friend, and seem to enjoy dancing with the devil

cupper24

[Blackwing]

Well been away trying to get my airflow correct. I want to reapply my ac5 but im happy with my temps so far. I mounted the zerotherm with a 140mm aerocool fan blowing and wire tired another 120 to the back of it pulling the air to a 120 mm case exhaust fan. I also have 92 mm side case fan blowing cool air on it too.

At idle my temps range from 33-37
After one hour amd over drive stress test on all core 100% load temp is 48 .

I increased the mult. to 15 x for 3000mhz

My goal was to get under 50 - 55 c full load.

Side note i have slow cooler somewhere around and 2 more 120mm case fans i can install. However the noise would be an issue and right now i have found a good balance. The best thingis my case fan is not maxed. Maxed i expect an additional - 4 degrees off current temps.

The opteron i still have I might sell it since its still a good 939 board combo. The southbridge fan need to be replaced but still works fine @ 2.6 .

I will try orthos later on tonight when the wife is knocked out .

Very pleased with performance so far . Im sure i can hit 3.1-3.2 if need be.











[QUOTE=Psychlone;2975027]Glad to see you around too Blackwing!
So you gave up the Opty??

Yep, these Phenoms are different - you've got to think about the NB now and your HT is going to be a multiple of the FSB, even if it shows as a MHz value...add all that to the RAM, CPU Multi and HT issues you had before and you've got a decent migraine coming on!

Unlike the older architecture, the HT, NB and RAM are all linked, but run on multipliers now, so it's not just simple adjustments, it requires you to do the math (as per the my guide) to keep all that stuff straight...well, it *is* simple adjustments - as long as you know what you're doing and how far you can possibly go on each.

Only 2 things are *really* different than your Opty setup - your NB *must* be higher or equal to the HT now, and when you used to have to round UP for the divisor ratio (CPU Multi / Memory Divider = Divisor Ratio) to make the math work right, now you DO NOT round at all, instead, you use the full decimal (to 2 or 3 places) to make the math work right. I struggled with that part for about 3 days until I figured out what was going on...and it was just a simple change in the architecture and how the memory controller works in the newer Phenoms. (talk about headache - I thought I was either going nutz or that every damn version of CPUz and Everest was just wrong!)

Anyway, you've already got a good overclocking background behind you - it's just a few small adjustments from what you're used to and you're off. Something to remember is that some of these Phenoms like a high CPU Multi rather than lowering it and increasing the FSB, but I've seen it go both ways with different steppings.

[main_shoby]

Originally Posted by cupper24

Got a little bit of a chance to test the Isochronous Flow->VC1->UnitID Clumping with EVEREST in all tangible configurations, and the differences between having them all ENABLED and DISABLED were nill, and just because I'm a scientist by nature, I tried them all individually, coupled, etc.

There may have been a 10MB/s Copy difference which may not even point to those, because EVEREST values tend to fluctuate between boots. Nothing to even bat an eye at...

As far as Auto XPress and CPU Tweak, I saw no difference in functionality and/or performance. I will be testing these in-game once I get some benchies set-up, though, and will report results then.

@Psychlone: I haven't been able to pin down any methods for switching the memory channels in the M3A79-T, but will keep searching. Let me know if you find that info, I'll post back at the end of the day to update any finds I make. Would be nice to collect that extra 25Mhz I'm missing out on though (not to mention the 266 unaccounted for due to using an x2 )

@main_shoby: Damn, son! Mighty fine job running wires in that case. Only in that pic where the Mobo is sitting on the carpet (let me repeat CARPET), please please please tell me you put a static free bag under that SOB and you just can't tell from the angle of the pic. If not, you truly live on the edge my friend, and seem to enjoy dancing with the devil

cupper24

Outside



inside

[Psychlone]

@ cupper: As per the M3A79-T whitepapers, and the more user-friendly User Guide manual that came with the motherboard, page 2-12 and 2-14, it shows Corsair as 1024 *and* 4096 (kit of 2) as being: A) Supports one module inserted in any slot as single-channel memory configuration and B) Supports one pair of modules inserted into either the blue slots or the black slots as one pair of dual-channel memory configuration. I knew there was an ability to utilize any slots for 2 sticks, but I couldn't remember for the life of me where I saw it...there is no BIOS adjustment to allow this, it's built-in the motherboard itself.

Doesn't really surprise me that those extra BIOS functions don't do anything on an X2 CPU...I just really didn't know since I've not done it myself.

@ shoby: Here's an example using presumed maximum values:

Alright, here's what this motherboard is capable of in all it's maximums...
CPU Multi: 17.5
FSB: 280
RAM: 1200MHz
NB: 2800MHz
HT: 2600MHz

Now, I know that I can't rise the CPU Multi higher than 17.5, the FSB won't go higher than 280, the RAM caps out at 1200MHz, the NB tops at 2800 and the HT at 2600, so while doing the math, I have to keep those values in mind:

(17.5) * (280) = (4900) - well, you don't even have to do more math this time to see that you've gone WAAAY over your limit on both your CPU Multi *and* your FSB!!
So,
(16) * (213) = (3400) - Maybe, just maybe this could be done...let's see what else happens here.
(16) / (2.66) = (6.02)
(3400) / (6.02) = (564.78) - so far, this may still be 'doable'...let's see what happens next
(213) * (12x) = (2556) theoretically plausible...
so your HT would have to be at 2400MHz to pull this off.
Now, in the real world, if you tried this, it probably wouldn't work without some serious attention to all the voltages and the RAM latencies being loosened up.

You can see that I was juggling the CPU Multi and FSB to get something that was close to something attainable, but still on the high side.
You can also see that I was hedging my bet that the NB was going to be ok at 2556MHz, which it probably isn't with everything else cranked up as high as it was...

All it really is, is a balancing act between all the different variables. Just because you *can* run a 280FSB with your CPU Multi at 7 doesn't mean that you're going to be able to with a CPU Multi of 15. Just because you can run your CPU Multi at 17.5 doesn't mean you're going to be able to with a FSB higher than 200. Just because you can run your RAM at 1200MHz doesn't mean that you're going to be able to with your FSB at 280 and your RAM still sitting at 1066 (2.66 or 16:6)...see where I'm going with this??

Hope that helps put it into perspective. There's nothing I can do from my computer that will show you what you've got to do to overclock your system properly - yours is going to overclock completely differently than mine...all I can do is show you how to do it properly and what to look for, perhaps some suggestions on what I would do, but without literally being in front of your computer and in your BIOS, I really can't do more than give examples. (sorry!)

@ blackwing: Good job! 48*C as a full-load temp at 3GHz is pretty good! Just start paying attention to those temps when you increase your voltages and your CPU Multi - it starts raising pretty quickly on these Phenoms.


Psychlone

[Battlestorm]

heya guys, i'm back
finaly got my heatsink delivered, was sent an intel only one :s then credit card company stopped my payment for the replacement
but should be building the pc over the weekend

Psychlone you got any stats on
AD7752ZWCJ2BGH
JAAAB AA 0836DPMW
9070844K80338

[cupper24]

I'm using both black slots (A2/B2) for my set-up. Dual channel mode is active per CPU-Z, but EVEREST, CPU-Z, and other diagnostics say the memory is running @ 778MHz in DDR2-800 mode... I'm going to OC it anyway, but I was wondering if there is a quick adjustment to correct for the missing 22Mhz. No biggie... just pondering.

cupper24

[Psychlone]

@ Battlestorm: Unless you missed a "5" in your tray number, I've never seen that one at all.
Did you mean AD7725ZWCJ2BGH ??
If so, then I've seen a similar tray number, but the week is different - it's a JAAAB AA 0847 DPMW A64 X2 7750 Black Edition - looks to be just a newer version of yours.
Since the week is different, I can tell you what this one did, but I wouldn't expect yours to be the same...
looks like it was 3.1GHz at 1.285V - but again, I wouldn't expect your week 36 to do the same exact thing, it may overclock better, it may not have as much in it.

We'll overclock it for what it's worth and then you can enter the information into the database so that others may have a chance at knowing what their same stepping's potential is.

@ cupper24: What version of CPUz you running? I had a version that did that to me a while ago, but the newest CPUz 1.49 corrected that...except that it still reads my DDR2 1066 modules as DDR2 800, but I know that's because they're not JEDEC compliant sticks - no 1066 modules are, they're considered 'overclocked DDR2 800'.
So, if Dual Channel Mode is indeed active as per CPUz, then you didn't have to do anything to get it to, which is kind of what I suspected (I just never had to so I never tried) - probably a relief to you that you don't have to mess with anything to get it to do what you wanted it to!!
Something that you *should* do is change your DRAM setting to UNganged...it's much faster, even though there *STILL* isn't a benchmarking program out there that can show the difference in reality.

Psychlone

[main_shoby]

well ty, psychlone. i was doing the same lol but the problem was, i cant go stable somewhere above 2940 =\ no mater what i do .. i can be stable on 3.1ghz but i gain alot of temp then ... i suspect .. after installing this new psu . and wire management , i gained 3C in max load which is horrable ..i even placed my casing's 120mm blowing speed fan on my processor replacing my slow and quite cpu fan .. no gain ..
confused here .. i replaced my heat sink a couple of times .. thermal paste was still pretty wet inside .. enough quantity ..
i dont know whats happening here .. any check list ?

[Psychlone]

Yeah - let the thermal paste CURE. That stuff won't bring your temps down for 5 full days of use...no matter what flavor you use.
I've used several that say they'll cure completely in 3 days, but I've yet to pull a heatsink off a CPU that's cured in less than 5 days of normal use with *any* thermal compound.

You know, you're chasing 3*C... Your CPU is good to 61*C, so what am I missing here? I certainly don't want to come across as condescending, but I would let it go...you can make up that 3* somewhere else, like fan rearrangement, leaving the side panel off your case, replacing your CPU fan altogether, replacing all your case fans with higher CFM ones, or just reducing your overclock to a level that's got acceptable temperatures. There are so many variables in cooling that I wish I could just tell you what you need to do, but I can't. What I can do is tell you that chasing 3* is wasting your time, and that you're safe as can be until you hit 60*C, at which point, your motherboard *should* shut itself down to limit any damage to the CPU.

So relax Bro, just overclock it and don't worry about your temps until you see them in the mid 50's (that leaves you with plenty of headroom to not go over the thermal threshold) - and most importantly, HAVE FUN with your new system!!!
I've played the game of chasing MHz, chasing MB/s, chasing that extra 200 points in benchmarks, then I realized - I wasn't having fun doing any of that, and in fact, it really caused me a lot of unneeded stress. So I did a self-evaluation and decided that once I've figured out my highest overclock, there is no more, so quit looking, once I've got my Vantage score, there is no more (cause I'd rather PLAY games than watch them and be scored on it!)

Just let that thermal paste cure over the next 5 days and watch your temps drop those 3* (at least ) - until then, don't be wasting your time moving/swapping/turning fans all around all over the place, you've got no baseline idle temp until 5 days, which means you've got no baseline load temps for that long - so it's not going to do you any good at all to reconfigure anything until the thermal paste has cured.

Good luck man.

Psychlone

[main_shoby]

hahaha .. well thats an advice .. lol u mean i found the optimal temp settings ? cough .. even with that .. now i got a new fan config .. ill make it final now .. i put 2x 120mm fans on my heatsink lol one is blowing bottom side to top .. other is from front to rear side , both fans are blowing into the heatsink .. anyway .. all my other settings were giving me 54C >_< now i got back to 50C after 2 hrs of prime95 .
actually you are right .. im spending my whole day doing fan adjustments .. which is just not cool.. ill wait 7 days now i guess this cooling setting will gimme some better results later .. then i can shoot for 3.2ghz
problem is, my motherboard temps are 28->30 after 2+ hrs of prime95.. i saw a forum .. a guy said he " burned " litterly fire on his mofset @ 3.3ghz .. anyway i dont know why he was trying 1.57V on air LOL .. and not watching temps ... is that possible that my mofsets are way hot and i dont even know that ? newegg dont sale any mofset coolers .
i gues ill need one just incase . bcoz all other motherboards are equiped with mofset cooler with heatpipe >_> anyway when u are gonna have some phenom2 for testing .
i need 4 phenom 2 and 4 motherboards if they are absolutly free and shipping is free too.
u know i did something weard to cool my processor lol .. i droped my vcore one notch below default lol .. @ 1.28V and impresivly im really cool and stable here .. stable same as before lol.

[Psychlone]

Just out of curiosity, was the board that burned up an MSI? (Gods be damned, I hate MSI with a passion for my own reasons)
There have been 2 members here on this forum with the K9N that literally caught fire because of the power regulators...

Anyway, if your board is 28-30*C, you've got nothing at all to fear...it's not until you get in the upper 40*C (47-50*C) that you should worry, but here's the catch - most boards come with at least a passive heatsink (usually with heatpipes) that cover the mosfets and/or power regulators...*AND* there's no thermistor diode anywhere near them, so you'll never know just how hot they're actually getting (actually, you'd probably crap if you knew how hot those little suckers actually get during normal idle!)

Unless you're pumping a lot of current through your Northbridge and HT lanes, I wouldn't give that any more thought. That kind of failure really only happens when people get oblivious to the inherent dangers of overclocking and set out on what they *should* know is a suicide run. 1.57V??? C'mon! (if that doesn't say 'suicide run', it says 'sheer stupidity' - there's no in between with that one!)

As for anything to do with Dragon, I can't talk about it. But, I will be building a couple more Phenom 9850BE systems for my kids with some spare parts!

So, on your UNDERvoltage, congratz! Just so you know, that really is the end point of the overclocking experience...to see just how much voltage it *actually* takes to run stable at the given frequency. In fact, there was a pretty good thread over at TPU that entailed nothing *but* underclocking/undervolting the Phenom architecture - seems there was one guy that his 9950BE ran at 2.5GHz in 'Kuma' mode (with 1 core turned off via BIOS) that was stable at .087V... .087V!

Anyway, just give that beast some time to cure the thermal paste and then you can get back to tweaking your fans...you just need to let it all settle in for a bit before jumping all over it - otherwise you won't know what's worked and what didn't!

Good luck!

Psychlone

[rUsty777]

Hey Psychlone first post here and a first time overclocker. Yesterday I placed my order on newegg for the parts listed under my username and I'm very anxious to overclock the 9850. (I am aware of the chances of getting a CPU that can overclock well but am still excited) I've read through the first few pages and can say I learned quite a lot. From going into this completely unaware of how to overclock a CPU I feel I have somewhat of a grasp on how to do this. I was obviously left with some questions after reading and ill try not to sound like an idiot at the same time

I'm sure a lot of this would make more sense with the computer actually built and the BIOS being right in front of me but I'll see if I can make sense.

I've actually read somewhere that the memory has no effect on overclocking the CPU and after reading your guide it seems that it is almost necessary to make those adjustments in the BIOS. My knowledge of RAM is very limited as I can only pick out RAM that would be compatible with a motherboard, I really don't know the terminology that well so seeing "TCWL" "TRRD" "tWTR" etc puts me at a loss. Also the Memory Divider was throwing me off. I would want to OC my CPU by increasing the FSB so it also increases the memory bus. Where I'm confused is how the memory bus gets maxed out. I have OCZ ddr2 800 ram from my previous build that I will be using on this rig. Now if the memory bus were maxed out would it be at 800Mhz? If so, by using the Memory Divider are you saying that decreasing the memory bus can allow you to furthermore increase the FSB on the CPU but then be limited to how high you can go by the volts? And one more thing for now. The Memory Divider should be a BIOS option correct? Thanks for this guide and all your help in advance!

[Psychlone]

Originally Posted by rUsty777

Hey Psychlone first post here and a first time overclocker.

Welcome to Guru3D! I think you'll like it here - not so many harsh people like in some other fourms.

Originally Posted by rUsty777

Yesterday I placed my order on newegg for the parts listed under my username and I'm very anxious to overclock the 9850. (I am aware of the chances of getting a CPU that can overclock well but am still excited) I've read through the first few pages and can say I learned quite a lot. From going into this completely unaware of how to overclock a CPU I feel I have somewhat of a grasp on how to do this. I was obviously left with some questions after reading and ill try not to sound like an idiot at the same time

That's awesome that I could instill some confidence in you!! I think if you just read and thoroughly understand everything, asking questions for those things you don't, then you'll be successful at this - it's really only got to be as hard as you make it.

Originally Posted by rUsty777

I'm sure a lot of this would make more sense with the computer actually built and the BIOS being right in front of me but I'll see if I can make sense.

I've actually read somewhere that the memory has no effect on overclocking the CPU and after reading your guide it seems that it is almost necessary to make those adjustments in the BIOS. My knowledge of RAM is very limited as I can only pick out RAM that would be compatible with a motherboard, I really don't know the terminology that well so seeing "TCWL" "TRRD" "tWTR" etc puts me at a loss. Also the Memory Divider was throwing me off. I would want to OC my CPU by increasing the FSB so it also increases the memory bus. Where I'm confused is how the memory bus gets maxed out. I have OCZ ddr2 800 ram from my previous build that I will be using on this rig. Now if the memory bus were maxed out would it be at 800Mhz? If so, by using the Memory Divider are you saying that decreasing the memory bus can allow you to furthermore increase the FSB on the CPU but then be limited to how high you can go by the volts? And one more thing for now. The Memory Divider should be a BIOS option correct? Thanks for this guide and all your help in advance!

Wherever it was that you read that memory has no effect on overclocking could have been meaning a couple different things, or was just wrong.
Quality brand memory is one thing, but D9 memory is another - Micron makes the best memory chips in the world; they're the fastest and so usually the RAM manufacturers will have one or two runs using those special Micron ICs. That's the RAM that overclocks the best, usually has the lowest latencies (timings), and is usually no more expensive than any other brand-name RAM...problem is, you've got to research what versions have those Micron ICs on them, and then physically hand-pick them from a shelf...your chances of getting D9 ICs when ordering online are almost nil.
The way you choose to overclock your machine has a big part in overclocking your memory (or not). If you chose to increase the FSB, you're also raising the memory's frequency...that's why we have dividers, so that when you've raised the FSB higher than your memory can run, you can drop your memory down to the next slower speed and keep raising the FSB - making up for that memory drop by more increasing of the FSB.
But, with FSB increase also comes Northbridge (NB) increase and HT (Hypertransport) increase, so that's why most AM2/AM2+ motherboards have either a multiplier to control each of these, or some version of a MHz adjustment...so you can drop them down a notch as well.
Another thing that I should say here is that so far, a lot of AM2+ motherboards NEED to have their RAM's latencies manually put in...this is why I've stated it's important to put in your first 4 latencies, RAM's voltage and RAM speed.

Here's an example:
Your 9850BE is going to come stock at 2.5GHz, and your motherboard is going to come with default speeds of 200 for the FSB, 2GHz for the NB and 2GHz for the HT.
Here's what that math looks like:
remember, it's CPU Multi x FSB = CPU freq
CPU Multi / Memory divider (shown as a decimal) = Divisor Ratio (I've put all the dividers as a decimal on the first page in the guide for convenience)
CPU Freq / Divisor Ratio = RAM MHz x 2 = DDR MHz
NB Multi x FSB = NB Speed
HT Multi x FSB = HT SPeed
(but both of them can actually be shown as a frequency (2000MHz or 2GHz) rather than as a multi, even though they're still actually based on their own multipliers, *AND* the NB must always be equal to or higher than the HT) - so, with that in mind:

(12.5) * (200) = (2500)
(12.5) / (2) = (6.25)
(2500) / (6.25) = (400) * (2) = (800MHz DDR)
(10X) * (200) = (2000MHz)
(10X) * (200) = (2000MHz)

So, to give you an example of what happens when you raise the FSB, I'm going to show you by doing nothing but raising the FSB in the math (that's what this equation is perfect for!!)

(12.5) * (270) = (3375) this is possible with a good stepping
(12.5) / (2) = (6.25) because your RAM is still at DDR2-800 and not running a divider
(3375) / (6.25) = (540) * (2) = (1080MHz DDR) now this is why it's not possible - your DDR2-800 RAM more than likely isn't going to run at 1080MHz without some *serious* tweaking via latencies
(10X) * (270) = (2700MHz) this also puts your NB out of range (they have been overclocked to 2800, but most top out at 2600)
(10X) * (270) = (2700MHz) this also puts your HT out of range (usually tops around 2600)

So now you should be able to see what happens when you simply raise the FSB and don't drop the memory, HT and NB down a notch...

Something to think about, and I really should add this to the guide, is that some Phenoms really like to be overclocked via nothing more than increasing the CPU Multi, where some others benefit most from going the FSB route.

Hope that helps put it into perspective for you!
Again, Welcome to Guru3D and enjoy your stay!!

Psychlone

[main_shoby]

do something which is good for your motherboard and your processor :p . ill rather say dont try to hike 3.3 ghz directly .. u never know how your processor is gonna react even if its good steping .. get you piece and start experiment, dont forget to check your peak of each setting. anyway you know this guide. weardly im able to gain 3110 mhz stable @ 1.4v but .. i dont want such kind of temprature. 56-59, so atm im really calm and cool with 2940, devolted @ 1.275 max load 49C which is satisfying

im looking for a mofset cooler >_> please recomend me a cheap one,
" or is it worth it to spend some cash on my mobo " -_-

[rUsty777]

Wow Psychlone you really like to help people overclock!!

I've read that post probably 4 or 5 times and each time something new clicks.

Lets start with *everything* but the memory first lol.
By looking at the equations the CPU Multi is always by default 12.5? And the NB and HT would either show up as a frequency or a Multi like the CPU. So I'll assume that the values you put for the NB and HT are a multi. Now you say that without latency tweaking you can max out the NB and HT at 2600. Why wouldn't someone always try to max it out at 2600 when it comes 2000mhz stock. Do the HT and NB effect temps?

Now where would the voltage come into place?
Do you determine what to set the voltage to by the specs of the CPU? I know that a high voltage would overheat the CPU so what method do you use to find the best value?

And now onto the RAM. I'm not sure if you answered it or I'm just misreading but is the memory divider a BIOS option? And where does the 2 value come from? Is that because the highest value of the RAM (in my case) you can have with using a divider is 400Mhz, because it's 800Mhz/2? Or can you set it as a number thats not an integer like 1.5?

Lets see if I can word this right. If I use a memory divider to drop it down to 400Mhz and start increasing the FSB, wouldn't it be really difficult to get the CPU stable when you reach back to 800Mhz for the RAM. How much of an increase does the RAMs frequency go up when you increase the FSB? We'll I guess you kind of answered that in the equation.

So by looking at this

(3375) / (6.25) = (540) * (2) = (1080MHz DDR) now this is why it's not possible - your DDR2-800 RAM more than likely isn't going to run at 1080MHz without some *serious* tweaking via latencies

When I do the math, if the divison between the CPU frequency and Divisor ratio is greater than 400Mhz I should just start over because it wont run right?

Almost done now hehe.
When you said that AM2+ Motherboards need to have the RAM Latency manually put it, would you just put in the values on the RAM's specs? Which value would go under which letters? I don't know the specific name its called but the "tWTR" and the other t*** words whatever they are haha . Last question, would I need to adjust the voltage for the memory if I use a memory divider or just overclocking the CPU in general. Or would I only need to adjust it f I overclock the memory.

Thanks again for the hugeee post and your time. Hope you can answer all my questions, I don't think they would be difficult for you hahaha.

EDIT: My parts should be here sometime tomorrow! Very excited and hopefully I get no DOA's so I can get right on this.

[Psychlone]

Originally Posted by rUsty777

Wow Psychlone you really like to help people overclock!!

Indeed I do! I've learned to quit messing with my own stuff and help other people mess with theirs! lol, j/k - But I really do like to spread the knowledge and hopefully make some friends that share the same interest in the process.

Originally Posted by rUsty777

I've read that post probably 4 or 5 times and each time something new clicks.

Just like any good book, eh? Seriously, I've read 'The Quickening' by Stuart Wilde enough that I could recite it verbatim to you, yet every time I open it, I find something, something that's even been underlined and highlighted in a couple colors - signifying that it meant something to me at one point in my life - and find something I never even seen before.

Originally Posted by rUsty777

Lets start with *everything* but the memory first lol.
By looking at the equations the CPU Multi is always by default 12.5? And the NB and HT would either show up as a frequency or a Multi like the CPU. So I'll assume that the values you put for the NB and HT are a multi. Now you say that without latency tweaking you can max out the NB and HT at 2600. Why wouldn't someone always try to max it out at 2600 when it comes 2000mhz stock. Do the HT and NB effect temps?

Overclocking the HT and the NB will increase your throughput and bandwidth - sometimes pretty significantly since the memory controller is on-die of the CPU...you can see a clear increase when raising either and running Everest Cache and Memory Benchmark...it affects the L3 Cache bandwidth - the communication between the CPU and the L3 cache (the 'buffer' before the RAM)

Originally Posted by rUsty777

Now where would the voltage come into place?
Do you determine what to set the voltage to by the specs of the CPU? I know that a high voltage would overheat the CPU so what method do you use to find the best value?

Actually, you set the voltage to be stable at whatever overclock you determine you can get away with...some boards will get away with 2200 without any voltage increase whatsoever...this is the best scenario since you've not increased the voltage and there's not going to be any excess heat. Going into the 2400MHz range and higher is going to require a voltage increase (CPU-NB Voltage and/or HT-CPU Voltage) - which will *always* increase the heat. Now is where the point of diminishing returns begins. The more voltage you begin to push through so that you can increase bandwidth, the hotter those chips are going to get. They're safe up to 50*C (actually a tiny bit more, but I usually understate the actual temps so that everyone gets it in their heads what's safe and what's not), so as long as you've got adequate cooling and your motherboard stays in the 30-45*C range, you can keep raising and increasing to your hearts desire, ***JUST REMEMBER*** that the entire point to overclocking properly is to find that 'sweet spot' and then determine just how *LOW* of a voltage you can get away with at those speeds and still be stable!

Originally Posted by rUsty777

And now onto the RAM. I'm not sure if you answered it or I'm just misreading but is the memory divider a BIOS option? And where does the 2 value come from? Is that because the highest value of the RAM (in my case) you can have with using a divider is 400Mhz, because it's 800Mhz/2? Or can you set it as a number thats not an integer like 1.5?

Memory dividers are found in the BIOS, usually shown as a MHz speed adjustment (i.e. 200, 266, 333, 400, 533) and you usually have to set one of the top options to [Manual] to even see them to begin with. On the M3A32-MVP and the M3A79-T, it follows this structure:

ADVANCED
.JumperFree Configuration
..AI Overclocking [Manual]
..FSB Frequency [210]
..PCIE Frequency [110] (I wouldn't experiment much with this one, but some boards do have a 'sweet spot')
..Processor Frequency Multiplier [15.00x]
..Processor Voltage [1.325] - which is actually 1.318 *see footnote 1
..Processor-NB Voltage [1.35]
..CPU VDDA Voltage [2.6v] (CPU voltage regulation circuits)
..CPU-NB HT Link Speed [2.4GHz] - this has to be proven stable before just jumping into it!
..DDR Voltage [2.10]
..Northbridge Voltage [Manual]
..Hyper Transport Volatge [1.50v]
..Core/PCIe Voltage [1.20] - Voltage supplied to the NB chip itself
..NB PCIE PLL [1.9v]
..Southbridge Voltage [1.24]
..Auto Xpress [Disabled] - Has to do with the TLB fix and doesn't do anything for xx50 series Phenoms
..CPU Tweak [Disabled] - Has to do with the TLB fix and doesn't do anything for xx50 series Phenoms

Memory Configuration
..Bank Interleving [Auto]
..Channel Interleaving XOR of Address bits [20:16,9]
..MemClk Trisate C3/ATLVID [Disabled] *see footnotes
..Memory Hole Remaping [Enabled]
..DRAM Ganged Mode [Disabled]
..Power Down Enable [Disabled]
..Read Delay [Auto]
..DCQ Bypass Maximum [Auto] - setting to 4 or 6 may help yield stability at high MHz values
.DRAM Timing Configuration
..Memory Clock Mode [Manual]
..Memory Clock Value [1066 MHz]

The BOLD shows the hierarchy of the BIOS (what tab to click to get to the correct page) and the RED shows the value you have to change to be able to change the RAM's speed or "Divider".

I determined the "2" for you because you're running DDR2-800 sticks...in the guide, I've broken down several common speeds of sticks to every possible combination that you could run into in a BIOS, along with their corresponding decimal values to use in the equation. I'll rewrite it right here (but more in depth with more common RAM speeds) so it's fresh in your memory because I need you to understand the math before you go any further.

DDR2-1066 = 533MHz = 16:6 = 8:3 = (8 / 3 = 2.66)
DDR2-800 = 400MHz = 12:6 = 6:3 = (6 / 3 = 2)
DDR2-667 = 333MHz = 10:6 = 5:3 = (5 / 3 = 1.66)

So all the different ways that you might see the RAM speed laid out in the BIOS are above, with the decimal being the value for that speed that you use in the math - you use this decimal to see what your RAM would be running at (speed wise) at a different 'divider'. Remember, to use a divider means to run your RAM at a reduced frequency - or a fraction of it's rated speed.

Originally Posted by rUsty777

Lets see if I can word this right. If I use a memory divider to drop it down to 400Mhz and start increasing the FSB, wouldn't it be really difficult to get the CPU stable when you reach back to 800Mhz for the RAM. How much of an increase does the RAMs frequency go up when you increase the FSB? We'll I guess you kind of answered that in the equation.

Not quite - you're already running at 400MHz...you've got to think in DDR terms which is Double Data Rate, so that 400MHz really equates to 800MHz in reality.
So to answer the second part of this question, yes - if you were to reduce your RAM all the way down to 200MHz (400MHz DDR) then yep- it would be all but impossible to increase your FSB enough to bring your RAM back up to 800MHz. The FSB increases the RAM by 2 for your DDR2-800 sticks, so every single notch you raise the FSB, you've raised the RAM frequency by 2 and the actual DDR rate by 4 (because remember, DDR = Double)...see this:
(12.5) * (200) = (2500)
(12.5) / (2) = (6.25)
(2500) / (6.25) = (400) * (2) = (800MHz DDR)

(12.5) * (201) = (2512.5)
(12.5) / (2) = (6.25)
(2512.5) / (6.25) = (402) * (2) = (804MHz DDR)

(12.5) * (202) = (2525)
(12.5) / (2) = (6.25)
(2525) / (6.25) = (404) * (2) = (808MHz DDR)

Get it? Every time you increase your FSB, your RAM increases by 2 because the decimal value of your DDR2-800 RAM is 2. If you were running DDR2-1066 RAM, the speed would increase by 2.66 with every single FSB increase.

[QUOTE=rUsty777;2982928]So by looking at this

(3375) / (6.25) = (540) * (2) = (1080MHz DDR) now this is why it's not possible - your DDR2-800 RAM more than likely isn't going to run at 1080MHz without some *serious* tweaking via latencies

When I do the math, if the divison between the CPU frequency and Divisor ratio is greater than 400Mhz I should just start over because it wont run right?[quote]
Not necessarily - how high your RAM overclocks depends on what ICs are on them...there's a way to find out, but simply testing is really the best way to know - and part of the 'Finding your Maximum Values' is at the beginning of the guide. You've got to know how high your RAM can go before jumping in head first, so when you're doing the math, or overclocking in your BIOS, you'll already know how high your RAM can go and can therefore make the necessary adjustments (via dividers) to make it become stable.

Originally Posted by rUsty777

Almost done now hehe.
When you said that AM2+ Motherboards need to have the RAM Latency manually put it, would you just put in the values on the RAM's specs? Which value would go under which letters? I don't know the specific name its called but the "tWTR" and the other t*** words whatever they are haha . Last question, would I need to adjust the voltage for the memory if I use a memory divider or just overclocking the CPU in general. Or would I only need to adjust it f I overclock the memory.

Yes - if you don't have the original packaging or your RAM doesn't have them on a sticker or silkscreened on the sticks themselves, then you can go to the manufacturers website and look up the latencies. But, you only have to put in the following latencies: (bolded)

..2T Mode [Enabled]
..DRAM Timing Mode [Both]
..CAS Latency (CL) [5 CLK]
..TCWL [5 CLK] - lower values equal faster writes, but will cause instability at high MHz
..TRCD [5 CLK]
..TRP [5 CLK]
..TRAS [18 CLK]

ALL the rest of the latencies are important, but not for anything but some extreme overclocking - AM2/AM2+ boards just function better if these 4 values are set manually...and you'll find that you can overclock higher because of having them set manually vs. [Auto]

Originally Posted by rUsty777

Thanks again for the hugeee post and your time. Hope you can answer all my questions, I don't think they would be difficult for you hahaha.

EDIT: My parts should be here sometime tomorrow! Very excited and hopefully I get no DOA's so I can get right on this.

No problem Bro! I'm excited for you!! A new build is always fun and learning how to overclock, although sometimes very frustrating, is very fulfilling when you get it done and get results!!!

Good luck!

Psychlone

[rUsty777]

/Bows down. Now thats a load of info! I feel like I'm getting a personal overclocking trainer! Haha. Ok I totally got the memory thing now. I literally did not know that the DDR was double the RAM's MHz, that makes so much sense.

I understand where the divider comes. So like it says in the guide I would drop the Memory Divider to the lowest value when making FSB increments.

And the decimal value (for me) would be 2. So in the end for each 1Mhz I increase on the FSB the DDR Mhz will increase by 4.

Now besides the memory what are voltages would I have to alter. I saw the CPU-NB and HT-CPU, there also should be one for the CPU itself correct?

And when reading the guide for determining maximum values for the NB and HT, I had gotten a bit confused or actually concerned with how to find the maximum value for both.

NorthBridge: You can adjust your NB frequency using a multiplier in the BIOS - remember it's a multiple of the FSB. I've found mine to be completely stable at 2600MHz. You'll have to experiment with the NB voltage to find your full-speed maximum.
Find this by raising it one level and rebooting all the way into Windows, repeating until it won't boot into Windows.

HT Link Speed: Remembering that it's actually a 10X multiple of your FSB, increasing the FSB also increases your HT. I've found mine stable at over 2400MHz, but in conjunction with the NB, it's stability is capped at 2400MHz when the NB is at 2400MHz or higher. Find this the same way as the NB.
The secret for getting a higher MHz throughput out of the HT is because of the chipset and the options for it.
Higher voltage helps in the stability for higher bandwidth - But you've GOT to pay attention to your motherboard temp now! Mine's sitting at 38*C right now, and doesn't really get much higher - this is due to adequate case cooling, which I suggest you definitely follow up on!!! (since the Northbridge on the M3A32-MVP Deluxe is passive, it really relies on good airflow around it to keep it cool! - if at any point you feel uncomfortable about the NB reaching into the mid 40*C range, you may want to check into an active cooling, or perhaps just removing the HS assembly and replacing the ASUS thermal gunk with a nice fresh layer of Arctic Silver5 or Ceramique) along with using the crap copper heatsink that came with the board...even though the memory cooling part is useless, the extra copper fins do help to dissipate a lot of the heat generated by the NB.

Ok so according to this part I would find the max value on the North Bridge first. After finding the max value for the FSB the NB and HT should already be higher because obviously the FSB was increased. Once I read that it brought me back to this.

the HT Multi is usually shown as a MHz option rather than a multiplier of the FSB,

Which threw me off even more because I remembered you using 10x as a multi for the HT in this example you gave me previously

(12.5) * (200) = (2500)
(12.5) / (2) = (6.25)
(2500) / (6.25) = (400) * (2) = (800MHz DDR)
(10X) * (200) = (2000MHz)
(10X) * (200) = (2000MHz)

Now if the HT is usually shown as a Mhz option do you mean that it just wont display the multi and it will do the math for you? (If that made sense haha) And if so why doesn't it do that for the NB also?

Lets see if I can word this one right hahah. Now when finding the max NB and HT values along with adjusting their voltages for stability, how can you determine the proper voltage for each one without overheating the motherboard but still have them at their max values? Obviously when increasing the voltage on the NB the temp is gonna go up and then increasing the voltage on the HT the temp is gonna go up more. Do you have to do countless tests to determine the best balance between the NB and the HT? Please tell me no cause I could only imagine how long that will take lmao.

Ugh and I feel like this is going to sound so dumb but whatever nobody here knows me in real life so who cares...hahaha. I just can't seem to come across in the guide how to find out how high my RAM can go.

You've got to know how high your RAM can go before jumping in head first

You need the equation to find the highest RAM value right?

(CPU Multi) * (FSB) = (CPU Freq)
(CPU Multi) / (Memory Divider) = (Divisor Ratio)
(CPU Freq) / (Divisor Ratio) = (RAM MHz) (* 2 = DDR MHz)

But don't you need the Multi and FSB max value before you can find it?

Again, probably sounds dumb to you but I'm stumped on this one lol and I'm sure there will be more to come.

Thanks Psychlone!

[Psychlone]

On the voltages, every voltage you have access to in your BIOS can be adjusted (obviously) - but you *really* need to be paying attention to temps when you start messing with them.
Specifically, the CPU Voltage should never have to go higher than 1.4V - if you need more than that to be stable at a desired overclock, you really need to reevaluate why you need to be that fast since the Phenoms don't do well with that high of voltage, plus the excess heat generated can get out of hand quickly.
In reality, all the other voltages don't actually need to be adjusted at all unless you're just trying to find the maximum values for them (NB, HT, SB, PCIE Pll, etc.) - I can run a decent overclock on NB and HT without any voltage increase at all, and that's how I would prefer everyone else to do it - it creates no extra heat this way and keeps your motherboard out of the danger zone...

Finding your max NB and HT isn't just by raising the FSB, since they're both linked to the FSB via a multiplier, raising that multi one step at a time will increase just the component in testing (just the NB or just the HT)
I used 10X in the examples because that's the default multi for both, but usually the HT shows as a frequency value (i.e. 2000MHz or 2GHz) but it's really a multiple of the FSB (and default for it is indeed 10X, 10X NB (or HT) * 200FSB = 200MHz (or 2GHz))
When/if the HT is shown in your BIOS as a frequency, the math for it has already been done for you like you said...some BIOS' actually show this as a multiplier, but most show it as a frequency, which doesn't change anything...it's still a multiple of the FSB.

Finding the maximum values for both the NB and the HT doesn't have to be a seriously involved process since most people aren't going to run their NB or HT at speeds much higher than stock anyway - it's good to know where they're going to cap out so you *can* run them overclocked to their max, but highly overclocked with higher than stock voltage will also produce enough extra heat that will negate the cooling inside your case (since the heatsinks on the NB are usually passive anymore, and if not, it still doesn't expel the heat outside the case)
I wouldn't go over the voltages in my BIOS guide on page 1 with the exception of HT Voltage being *significantly* lower - in the 1.3 to 1.375V range...1.5V is too much for any motherboard to suffer for long, and the voltage for your CPU Voltage will vary depending on the speed you're trying to attain and the efficiency of the CPU itself...lower the voltage on *ALL* of them, the better!

The fastest way to test the HT and NB speeds is to use AMD OverDrive. That keeps you out of the BIOS for extended periods, but do be prepared to clear your CMOS once it bluescreens or freezes - it will happen when you raise it too far.

As for finding the max value for your RAM, if you leave your RAM at it's highest setting (400MHz), drop your CPU Multi to it's lowest, drop the NB and the HT to their lowest, and then raise the FSB, you're testing your RAM...everything else is out of the equation (remember that the FSB is linked to the RAM as well as all the other components - think of FSB as the 'Master' controller)
Raise your FSB a few steps, rebooting to POST, back into BIOS and repeat until it won't pass POST...then you can raise your VDIMM Voltage (or RAM Voltage or whatever it's called in your BIOS) and do it some more...once you've either gotten to the maximum voltage for your RAM (which should be on the OCZ website) don't go much over that - most DDR2 RAM will be fine at fairly high voltages like 2.2V, but again, the lower the better.. when you've maxed out, write down what FSB you got to and you can see exactly where your RAM was running.
i.e.
(7) * (250) = (1750)
(7) / (2) = (3.5)
(1750) / (3.5) = (500) * (2) = (1000)
(with your NB and your HT at their lowest values)
That would run your CPU at 1.75GHz, but your RAM would be at 1000MHz - see how that works?
You've effectively dropped everything else out of the equation and used the FSB to increase your RAM to it's max potential.

Just remember, you're not going to attain the maximum values for any of your components when you put it all together - that knowledge is for when you're doing the math BEFORE an overclock attempt so you can see where everything is going to be, and if you're close to any component's max values, you're going to need to rethink the overclock - just a small adjustment like a couple MHz on the FSB will make an incredibly unstable overclock incredibly stable!

You can find the maximum values for each component in any order that you wish - just remember to drop everything else out of the equation by putting everything *but* the one you're testing - at their lowest values.

Hope that helped clear it up a bit...let me know if I need to reiterate something, sometimes I get wound up and don't write as well as I'm thinking (I seriously can go through all this in my head without looking at a BIOS, so sometimes I BSOD or crash to desktop in my own head!!)

Psychlone

[rUsty777]

Hey Psy didn't read your post yet, my parts just came in the mail! I got the CPU right next to me and thought I'd post the stepping.

HD985ZXAJ4BGH
JAAHB AA 0828DPAW
9705401G80011
Green Chipset

Ill gonna assemble it and get back to you cheers!

[rUsty777]

Originally Posted by Psychlone

Hope that helped clear it up a bit...let me know if I need to reiterate something, sometimes I get wound up and don't write as well as I'm thinking (I seriously can go through all this in my head without looking at a BIOS, so sometimes I BSOD or crash to desktop in my own head!!)

Psychlone

I lol'd!

Ok yes I understood your post everything is falling in place in my head. As of right now I am on the computer. Got it running earlier and finally finished formatting the drive and reinstalling windows. I decided to take a look at the BIOS and the setup seems pretty simple. I did notice that my ddr2 was set to 533. And when I would go to change the latency's manually it would just change back once i save and exit BIOS. I then tried changing the RAM to 400mhz and my comp wouldnt boot after, had to reset cmos.

EDIT: I fixed it. got the ram running at ddr2 800mhz. Gonna wait for the thermal paste to cure so friday or sat i am going to start to oc.

[Battlestorm]

just a little check in from me, not had much time to play with new rig

got teh 8gb ram to run at 1066 at 5-5-5-18 (need to change to 15 for next round of tests) which are the rated settings, but had to bring it to 2.3v to get it stable for memtest+ (rated for 2.2v) so dont think i'll get much out of the modules not that that wan't entirely unexpected, not sure if to put 2.4v into them and see how far they go...

had a little issue with Isochronous Flow-Control Mode/UnitID Clumping/VC1, the onboard sound card would crash windows on boot if they where enabled, remove the driver or turn the options off and it boots a-ok

the motherboard seems to think that auto voltage for cpu should be 1.440v
dropped that down to 1.3v and upped to 3ghz (acc disabled) and seems stable, 5 hours and counting on prime and mobo:33c socket:22c Core1/2:25c Aux:41c <- from sandra what is the aux temp from?

will try pushing a little harder tomorrow i think

edit: uploaded an excel sheet with the formulars for cpu/fsb
http://rapidshare.com/files/18546838...s__clean_.xlsx

jsut edit the blue numbers the rest all works it's self out

edit2: Psychlone what would you say a max for cpu voltage should be on the phenom, ignoring any temprature issues?

edit3: was testing for max fsb hit 280 with ram divider of 5 (1120mhz) couldn't hit 290 thought it was the ram, so back to 280 with divider 6 (933mhz) no post, odd, check to make sure nothing changed, try again, no post, change back to divider 5, posts, sitting here thinking WTH lol
tried the next divider down (slower still) and it posts, thinking the bios must be changing some hidden timmings lol