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Possible? If so, how? FX5900->Quadro / 6800->Quadro
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DarknessGFX
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Default Possible? If so, how? FX5900->Quadro / 6800->Quadro - 02-25-2006, 13:39 | posts: 4 | Location: Germany

Hey there.

I've been googling a lot about this, but I didn't really find answers, only dead links. This seems pretty much like the place to ask.

Now, I'm building a small secondary rig for Lightwave use. I want it to run with a Quadro, as that would have some nice impact on the OGL Interface, the previz and so on.

Real Quadros are too expensive, even at eBay. So that's not really an option unless I choose an old GF2/3/4 Quadro.

From what I understood, it's possible to mod a FX5900 into the according Quadro. 1) Does anybody have some info about that, how it works, tutorials? 2) If there is a softmod possibility - is that slower)

Then, I saw a tutorial to mod a 6800GT into a Quadro. That included some soldering with tiiiiny resistors but I'd be willing to take the risk. THe problem is - AGP 6800GTs are fraking expensive at eBay, new they're unavailable. So, 3) Can 6800 / 6800LE cards be modded the same way? I mean, do they have the exact same layout and all.

Thanks, dudes. Any help would be much appreciated.

Cheers,
Ch.
   
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aircool
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Default 02-25-2006, 14:49 | posts: 13,736 | Location: Devon, In A Little Town.

im sure you could be i have no experience you should try this 1st in NVIDIA FOURMS more ppl
   
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DarknessGFX
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Default 02-25-2006, 14:59 | posts: 4 | Location: Germany

Quote:
Originally Posted by aircool
im sure you could be i have no experience you should try this 1st in NVIDIA FOURMS more ppl
I'm afraid I don't really get what you're trying to say.
   
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clokkevi
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Default 02-25-2006, 15:08 | posts: 368

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Many people come to this thread because they want to buy a PCI-E card
which they can use for 3ds Max.

If this is the case,
please do NOT buy a GeForce 6800 Ultra / GT for modding it
(unless you can get a used one really really cheap, like USD $75 - $100)

A non-modded USD $275 - $325 GeForce 8800 GTS (320MB/640MB) will give you (probably much) better performance than
a Quadro-modded GeForce 6800 GT or Ultra
in 3ds Max.

I suppose that even the USD $150 - $200 (?) GeForce 8600 GTS models will probably be faster in 3ds Max!

When 3ds Max 10 comes, it will have support for DirectX 10,
and then you need a GeForce 8x00 to use this.

If on the other hand you already have a GeForce 6800 Ultra or GT,
and you plan to use some of the programs that may actually perform a bit faster in OpenGL mode with a Quadro-modded card,
then read on...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

For EVERYONE: SPECviewperf 7.1.1

To compare the performance before and after the Quadro mod
you have to download the SPECviewperf 7.1.1 benchmark
ftp://spec.ir.miami.edu/dist/gpc/opc...rf711_full.exe
You should run it before the mod, and after the mod..
..however, before you run SPECviewperf, you should ALWAYS set up your drivers in a certain way:
http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread....29#post1938029

After you have done this, and run a full run of SPECviewperf 7.1.1 in "GeForce mode",
you are now ready to start the modding to "Quadro mode"..!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

For AGP 8X

For NV40 softquadro mod;
GeForce 6800 (AGP) Ultra, GT, GS, Plain, LE, -> Quadro FX 4000

Because NV40 and NV40GL are "identical" this mod will make all things run in "Quadro speed"..!

1) First, install a workstation ForceWare driver.
See here, at Nvidia's "Partner Certified Drivers" page:
http://www.nvidia.com/page/partner_c...d_drivers.html
Either choose the one certified for your main graphics application,
or choose the latest "default" version at the top of the list.
(Not 83.62, it has only support for Quadro's (FX 4000, FX 4500 and FX 3450/4000 SDI)
so your GeForce card will not be identified - unless you edit the nv4_disp.inf file, that is)

2) Install the latest RivaTuner.
http://www.nvworld.ru/downloads/rivatuner.zip

3) Start RivaTuner.

4) At the "Main" tab, click the little "triangle" to the right of the
"256-bit NV40 . . . . . . . . . with 256MB DDR3 . . . . . . . Customize..."

5) A rectangular menu with 6 icons will pop-up, click the left-most icon (with an icon showing a picture of the card)

6) You should be at "Low-level system tweaks".
If you are not, you have done something wrong in step 4) or 5)

7) Click the "NVStrap driver" tab.

8) Near the bottom, click "Install" button

9) Just above, check ON "Unlock professional capabilities"
(If this option is not possible to check on/off, click "Apply" button first to enable it)

10) Check ON "Use ROM straps for PCI programming"

11) In the "Graphics adapter identification",
switch from "determined by hardware" to "Quadro"
BUT - if you have a GeForce 6800 GS card, and RivaTuner 15.8, set this to "Custom" instead.
Then in the new option box that appear just below this, click twice on the down-arrow
(or as many clicks that is needed) - until it says
"004E (NVIDIA Quadro FX 4000)"

12) Click "Apply" button.

13) You should get a warning that you have to restart you PC. Do so, click "Yes" ( or "OK").
If you don't get it, then do the following until you get the warning
13b) click "OK" button
13c) close the "Low-level system tweaks" window
13d) close RivaTuner

14) Restart the PC manually if you still haven't got the warning.
When it starts up again, you should have a Quadro FX 4000!

15) Now, set up your drivers for SPECviewperf benchmarking...
http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread....29#post1938029
..and run a new full run of SPECviewperf 7.1.1, this time in "Quadro mode"!
Save your results and compare them with your "GeForce mode" results.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

For PCI Express x16

GeForce 6800 (PCI-E) Ultra, GT -> Quadro FX 4000 speed and features

The above is for GeForce 6800 AGP 8X.
For GeForce 6800 PCI Express x16, use the same procedure...!
The difference will be that after you have finished the mod on PCI Express, Windows will still show the card as "NVIDIA GeForce 6800 Series GPU".
But even if RivaTuner will not able to fool Windows, it will be able to fool the ForceWare drivers.
So by benchmarking your card, before and after the mod, you will see the differences.
By "benchmarking" I mean SPECviewperf
http://www.spec.org/benchmarks.html#gpc
(and not the "3DMark" tests from Futuremark, as those are mainly for testing your card's perfomance in games.)
BUT: Solidworks' "RealView" feature will NOT work on a modded PCI-E!
If you want to use Solidworks' "RealView" you will need a modded AGP 8X, or a real Quadro.
For an explanation of why this is, read this post by rui0317:
http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread....11#post1632311
POWERdraft (on a modded PCI-E) is working with AutoCAD 2006 and lower, but not with AutoCAD 2007,
this has been reported by juodvarnis.
If you want to use AutoCAD 2007's "POWERdraft" you will need a modded AGP 8X, or a real Quadro.

WATCH OUT: on PCI Express, there are some GeForce 6800's that have NV41 core;
GeForce 6800 GS, GeForce 6800 LE, GeForce 6800 XT and plain GeForce 6800,
(remember we are talking about PCI Express versions of these)
- these are not possible to modify to Quadro. Not at all. Most likely, never.
The only ones that are currently verified to ALWAYS have NV40 (which are possible to mod)
are GeForce 6800 Ultra and GeForce 6800 GT.
So if you are going to buy one now, those are the ones you should choose.
(Actually, these PCI-E cards use a special GPU named "NV45" - but this is just the (AGP) NV40 and a AGP-to-PCIE bridge.)

Finally, if you want to use the native application profile settings in Display Manager
(to choose "Maya", or "SOFTIMAGE|XSI", or "Pro/ENGINEER" etc.)
you have to - AFAIK - copy the file "nvwsapps.xml" into "C:\WINDOWS\system32\" manually.
Since Windows is still seeing your card as a regular GeForce even after the mod,
this file is not automatically installed.
This file is inside the ForceWare drivers, or rather, the compressed "nvwsapps.xm_" version of it.
You use WinRAR to extract it out, then use "expand.exe" to expand it, enter
"expand.exe -r nvwsapps.xm_ nvwsapps.xml" from a command prompt.
Or download the one in the bottom of this post,
(it's located at megaupload.com)
and save it to "C:\WINDOWS\system32\"
Restart your PC, and then you should see the list in "Performance & Quality Settings" tab in Display Manager.

And if you use 3ds Max and want to install Maxtreme 4/6/7/8 driver, just download it from
ftp://download.nvidia.com/ws_apps/MAXtreme/
and install it. It will work even if Windows still shows the card as "NVIDIA GeForce 6800 Series GPU".

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

nvwsapps.xml

The attached "nvwsapps.txt" is not possible to download anymore.
I have no way of removing it from this post, so please just ignore it.

Then, download the "nvwsapps.xml" here instead:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=DG4ZVER9

If that link also stops working, then go to post #233 in this thread instead:
http://forums.guru3d.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=233

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

This attached file is not possible to download anymore - as I wrote.
Please ignore it.

Last edited by clokkevi; 04-02-2007 at 04:41.
   
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DarknessGFX
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Default 02-25-2006, 15:19 | posts: 4 | Location: Germany

Thanks a bomb, pal, that's awesome! One last question if I may ... how's the performance of such a softmod Quadro 4000 compared to the real deal? Significantly slower?
   
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clokkevi
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Default 02-25-2006, 15:35 | posts: 368

It depends.
GeForce 6800 LE -> Quadro FX 4000 will be a lot slower than the real Quadro
GeForce 6800 Ultra -> Quadro FX 4000 will be a lot faster than the real Quadro

This is because - since the softmodded NV40 works exactly like a NV40GL
(while the softmodded NV35 don't have all the features that a real NV35GL have, so it will be slower)
...the only thing that makes the speeds different, are..:
- the number of active of pixel pipelines / vertex processing units
- the core speed / memory speed

These are the different NV40 models, sorted by performance

GeForce 6800 Ultra = 16 pixel pipes, 6 vertex processing units, 425 MHz core / 2*550 (1100) Mhz memory speed
GeForce 6800 GT = 16 pixel pipes, 6 vertex processing units, 350 MHz core / 2*500 (1000) Mhz memory speed
Quadro FX 4000 = 12 pixel pipes, 6 vertex processing units, 325 MHz core / 2*500 (1000) Mhz memory speed
GeForce 6800 GS = 12 pixel pipes, 5 vertex processing units, 350 MHz core / 2*500 (1000) Mhz memory speed
GeForce 6800 plain = 12 pixel pipes, 5 vertex processing units, 325 MHz core / 2*350 (700) Mhz memory speed
GeForce 6800 LE = 8 pixel pipes, 4 vertex processing units, 325 MHz core / 2*350 (700) Mhz memory speed


In fact, *all* AGP GeForce 6800 GPU's are originally *made* with 16 pixel pipes and 6 vertex processing units,
but when testing them, some may show that they have, as an example, a non-working vertex processing unit.
Instead of just ditching the GPU into the garbage bin, they enter e.g. "Do not use VP Unit #06" into the ROM
and make a "GeForce 6800 plain" of it...!
However, some GeForce6800 plain / GeForce 6800 LE's have 16 + 6 *working* units,
Nvidia have just locked some of them. Then you may be able to unlock those with RivaTuner!
See "C:\Program Files\RivaTuner\Doc\ReadMe.htm", search for the text
"try NV40 softmodding"


The reason for the real Quadro FX 4000 to have the lowered speed is
probably most to increase the stability when working..
- an application that's crashing very often is much worse than getting 5%-10% lower performance!

As for the reason for Nvidia to lock up 4/16 of the pixel piplines -
AlecRyben gave an explanation for this in post #11 in this thread:
http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=172724


EDIT:
I have rewritten most of this post after learning - from AlecRyben - that the real Quadro FX 4000
in fact have only *12* pixel pipes - the 4 others are blocked by default!

Last edited by clokkevi; 02-26-2006 at 15:46.
   
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DarknessGFX
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Default 02-25-2006, 15:44 | posts: 4 | Location: Germany

Cool, thanks clokkevi! Finally all cleared up.

If I use an unlockable LE, can I still unlock the pipes after the Quadro "mod"?
   
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clokkevi
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Default 02-25-2006, 16:08 | posts: 368

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarknessGFX
Cool, thanks clokkevi! Finally all cleared up.

If I use an unlockable LE, can I still unlock the pipes after the Quadro "mod"?
Yes - both these things can be turned on / off at your wish,
and the sequence does not matter at all.
   
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silentdan
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Default 03-16-2006, 04:58 | posts: 1

Can this card be moded to quadro 4000?

   
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AlecRyben
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Default 03-16-2006, 09:07 | posts: 7,776 | Location: Utopia Planitia, Mars

Quote:
Originally Posted by silentdan
Can this card be moded to quadro 4000?

Well, since it looks like 6800NU/6800GS/6800GT AGP, my bet is that it can be easily modded into a perfect Quadro FX 4000 clone.
   
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fr33+z
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Default 03-20-2006, 22:06 | posts: 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by clokkevi
For NV40 softquadro mod;
GeForce 6800 (AGP) Ultra, Plain, LE, GT -> Quadro FX 4000
And 6800 GS AGP too...
   
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clokkevi
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Default 03-20-2006, 23:35 | posts: 368

Quote:
Originally Posted by fr33+z
And 6800 GS AGP too...
Yes, thank you, I'll add that one, too!
   
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Geforce 6800 Utltra?
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xebasS
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Default Geforce 6800 Utltra? - 04-07-2006, 21:55 | posts: 1

Thanks a lot! this post was very helpfull!

Last edited by xebasS; 04-07-2006 at 21:57.
   
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chinkdiesel69
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Default 04-20-2006, 20:46 | posts: 3

Hi

I have a BFG 6800GT OC PCI-Ex. I'm a bit confuse on which forceware drivers to use. It saids i can't use 83.62. Does this mean i can use any other forceware drivers? The latest one out now from the nvidia site is the 84.26 (WHQL Certified). Can I use that to install and then use RivaTuner?
   
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chinkdiesel69
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Default 04-20-2006, 23:05 | posts: 3

Hey guys,

I end up using drivers 81.67 and these are my results:

Run All Summary 81.67

---------- SUM_RESULTS\3DSMAX\SUMMARY.TXT
3dsmax-03 Weighted Geometric Mean = 34.78

---------- SUM_RESULTS\CATIA\SUMMARY.TXT
catia-01 Weighted Geometric Mean = 29.85

---------- SUM_RESULTS\ENSIGHT\SUMMARY.TXT
ensight-01 Weighted Geometric Mean = 25.86

---------- SUM_RESULTS\LIGHT\SUMMARY.TXT
light-07 Weighted Geometric Mean = 25.19

---------- SUM_RESULTS\MAYA\SUMMARY.TXT
maya-01 Weighted Geometric Mean = 47.51

---------- SUM_RESULTS\PROE\SUMMARY.TXT
proe-03 Weighted Geometric Mean = 43.16

---------- SUM_RESULTS\SW\SUMMARY.TXT
sw-01 Weighted Geometric Mean = 24.87

---------- SUM_RESULTS\UGS\SUMMARY.TXT
ugs-04 Weighted Geometric Mean = 28.32


Which leads to one more question. If I install another version of drivers, lets say a newer version, will I have more performance increase? I know I sound a bit greedy, but i was just wondering. I love the results I got from the test. Thanks!
   
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clokkevi
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Default 04-21-2006, 11:29 | posts: 368

When a new version is installed, some tests may be a few percent faster,
while others may me a few percent slower.
When the next version after that is installed, the situation might be reversed..!
There are some sites that seems to be very interested (even obsessed) with those differences,
and are posting results from every version they have tried.
But since these are gaming people, they post 3Dmark, Aquamark, FarCry and FEAR test results.
I am not aware of any site that posts SPECviewperf results from every existing ForceWare version
using GeForce's modded to Quadro's...
This mean you must try yourself.

Yes, the I think 83.62 should not be used since it is made *only* for Quadro's.
If you will be using your Quadro in a kind of 3D (or 2D) creation program,
then some programs will maybe have weird issues if you don't use the version
*certified* for that program.
http://www.nvidia.com/page/partner_c...d_drivers.html

That said, you may try any driver you want, and if you find that it works 100%,
and is faster for your use, then stick to that one.

ftp://download.nvidia.com/Windows/Quadro_Certified/
will be the place to download Quadro certified versions

ftp://download.nvidia.com/Windows/
will be the place to download standard Windows drivers

If you try to use an old driver, like 52.14, it will not have the ID number for your GF 6800 GT / Quadro 4000 FX.
You can fix this manually, by extracting the "52.14_win2kxp_english.exe" file with WinRAR,
then open "nv4_disp.inf"
In there, you will see two lists;

[NVIDIA.Mfg]
which assigns a variable to the ID found in the card,

[Strings]
which assigns a "human-readable" string to the variable made in [NVIDIA.Mfg]

This means that if you if you, to [NVIDIA.Mfg], add these 2 lines
%NVIDIA_BR02.DEV_00F9.1% = nv4_NV3x, PCI\VEN_10DE&DEV_00F9
%NVIDIA_NV40.DEV_004E.1% = nv4_WSApps_NV3x_DOEB, PCI\VEN_10DE&DEV_004E

..and to [Strings], add these 2 lines
NVIDIA_BR02.DEV_00F9.1 = "NVIDIA GeForce 6800 Series GPU"
NVIDIA_NV40.DEV_004E.1 = "NVIDIA Quadro FX 4000"

..then save the "nv4_disp.inf" with the same name
(make sure it doesn't turn into "nv4_disp.inf.txt")
you can install the 52.14 driver,
either by right-clicking "nv4_disp.inf" and choose "Install"
or by double-clicking the "setup.exe" file (which is among the files extracted with WinRAR)
   
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andeen
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Default 04-26-2006, 00:23 | posts: 13 | Location: Sweden

I dont get this ...why mod it Quadro is that better or ? i dont get it ..sorry ..
If u have a new 7800 why mod into an old Quadro card ?

Sorry
   
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AlecRyben
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Default 04-26-2006, 08:01 | posts: 7,776 | Location: Utopia Planitia, Mars

Quote:
Originally Posted by andeen
I dont get this ...why mod it Quadro is that better or ? i dont get it ..sorry ..
If u have a new 7800 why mod into an old Quadro card ?

Sorry
Search engines are your friends, so use them wisely.

Appology accepted.
   
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DKC
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Default 05-06-2006, 07:11 | posts: 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by clokkevi
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

HOWEVER: on PCI Express, there are some GeForce 6800's that have NV41 core;
GeForce 6800 GS, GeForce 6800 LE, GeForce 6800 XT and plain GeForce 6800,
(remember we are talking about PCI Express versions of these)
- these are not possible to modify to Quadro. Not at all. Most likely, never.
The only ones that are currently verified to ALWAYS have NV40 (which are possible to mod)
are GeForce 6800 Ultra and GeForce 6800 GT.
So if you are going to buy one now, those are the ones you should choose.
(Actually, these PCI-E cards use a special GPU named "NV45" - but this is just the (AGP) NV40 and a AGP-to-PCIE bridge.)
Is it still true that ALL PCI-e 6800 GTs and Ultras are NV40 and thus softmoddable? Are there any new 6800 GTs and Ultras that are using newer chips and thus not moddable?

I am considering buying a videocard and I will be doing a fair amount of CAD as well. Thus I'm trying to figure out which is the best card to buy. Are the newer ATI cards still moddable to FireGL or have they been locked like the 7xxx series of nvidia cards?

Last edited by DKC; 05-06-2006 at 07:25.
   
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AlecRyben
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Default 05-06-2006, 11:09 | posts: 7,776 | Location: Utopia Planitia, Mars

You can get a genuine Quadro FX 3400 or ATI FireGL 7100 for about $300 on ebay.
   
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matrix681
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Default 05-21-2006, 02:06 | posts: 2

thx guys, this thread is a very good "howTo" for the softmod of a GeForce.
nice work!


i have a little different question, it's about the memory-size and the pipelines.
i know, that the pipelines are important for the performance of a modded quadro.

but whats about the memory size?

i have three possible cards to buy, all ~ 200***8364;

first, a GeForce 6800GT with 16 pipelines, but slow chiptact (350 / 500) - 256 MB:
(the chiptact can be easy overclock to 450)
http://www.geizhals.at/a135056.html

second, a GeForce 6800GS, with 12 pipelines, but faster tact (425 / 500) - 256 MB:
http://www.geizhals.at/a179401.html

and third, a GeForce 6800GS, with 12 pipelines and fast tact (425 / 500) - 512 MB:
http://www.geizhals.at/a173466.html


i assume, that #3 will be faster then #2. (same pipelines, same tact, more memory)

but would #1 faster then #2, cause of the more pipelins in face of the slower tacts?

and if, would #3 faster then #1 cause of the larger memory and faster tact, in face of the 4 pipelines more at #1 ?



kindly regards and thx in advance (and sorry for my bed english )

Last edited by matrix681; 05-21-2006 at 02:09.
   
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clokkevi
Master Guru
 
Videocard: GeForce GTX 680
Processor: Intel i7-920 D0 @3.8GHz
Mainboard: ASUS P6T Deluxe V2
Memory: DDR3 Patriot 1600LL 12 GB
Soundcard: M-Audio FireWire 410
PSU: Corsair HX 1000
Default 05-21-2006, 02:10 | posts: 368

Please read what I wrote above:

************************************************** ***********
HOWEVER: on PCI Express, there are some GeForce 6800's that have NV41 core;
GeForce 6800 GS, GeForce 6800 LE, GeForce 6800 XT and plain GeForce 6800,
(remember we are talking about PCI Express versions of these)
- these are not possible to modify to Quadro. Not at all. Most likely, never.
The only ones that are currently verified to ALWAYS have NV40 (which are possible to mod)
are GeForce 6800 Ultra and GeForce 6800 GT.
So if you are going to buy one now, those are the ones you should choose.
************************************************** ************


This mean both 2. and 3. card, which are both 6800 GS, will not be moddable.

The first card (or any other 6800 GT or 6800 Ultra) is your only choice.

Last edited by clokkevi; 05-21-2006 at 02:16.
   
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matrix681
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Default 05-21-2006, 02:19 | posts: 2

ups, sorry

and thx for the fast reply


but only for theorie: if #2 and #3 would be cards with NV40, which one will be the fastest?
   
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clokkevi
Master Guru
 
Videocard: GeForce GTX 680
Processor: Intel i7-920 D0 @3.8GHz
Mainboard: ASUS P6T Deluxe V2
Memory: DDR3 Patriot 1600LL 12 GB
Soundcard: M-Audio FireWire 410
PSU: Corsair HX 1000
Default 05-21-2006, 02:44 | posts: 368

About the memory size vs. speed, you mean..?

I believe that...
(I take it that you do not want to use it to play games with high anti-aliasing settings, like 8x or 16x
- and would need a much bigger framebuffer because of this!)


..as long as you have *enough* for your scene, you will not see any difference in speed between a 256 MB or a 512 MB card.
I mean, if your scene uses, as an example, 240 MB,
there should be no difference in speed between having a 256 MB card with 16 MB left unused,
or a 512 MB card with 272 MB left unused.

However, the moment your scene is *bigger* than 256 MB, the 256 MB card
will need to "borrow" MB's from your ordinary mainboard RAM to supplement, and this will be a lot slower
than having the 512 MB card...

So I guess it depends on what kind of scenes you create.
Btw, I assume you will be using it for 3d work..?

Last edited by clokkevi; 05-21-2006 at 03:15.
   
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nirishere
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Smile 07-05-2006, 12:36 | posts: 1

Hi !
I myself am into softmodding my new not-yet-bought Card, into a Quadro.
The thing is that there are various kinds of 6800 GT's and Ultra's and I am getting kind of confused.

One is called for example :
nVIDIA GeForce PX6800 256MB Leadtek
=> The cheapest yet, (not a GT, though , and therefore, not SoftModdable ?)

Another two:
nVIDIA GeForce PX6800 256MB Leadtek
=> a lot more expensive ~600$ (!!)

nVIDIA GeForce 6800 GT 256MB PCI-E (core 350MHz, mem 1000MHz GDDR3, bus 256-Bit, pixpipes 16) ~466$ (!)

So, are the GT's so expensive afterall ? Is there a GT or Ultra version that is the cheapest yet softmoddable ?
thanx !
   
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