Think before buying a Prophet 4500 kyro II

Punch_uk · Jun 2, 2001

I'll try not to swear here but jeeessss I'm really fed up with this pile of <IMG SRC="smileys/puke.gif"> I've been trying to get it to work all day (properly) 
 
Before you go buy one I'd wait till there are some drivers that are tweaked properly (i.e give you a frame rate better than a geforce 2 mx. read here for more info: 
 <A HREF="http://forum.hercules.com/index.php3?pg=prreplymsg" TARGET=_blank>http://forum.hercules.com/index.php3?pg=prreplymsg</A> 
 
Before you Buy.

Teasy · Jun 4, 2001

I understand your frustration as I've had the same experiences many many times with a variety of different cards, Voodoo Banshee, TNT2, Geforce DDR, Radeon DDR, Kyro 1 on a variety of different systems. But I don't feel that your post is entirely warrented. There are only a few cards I've owned that I've never had problems with, Voodoo1, Voodoo2, Voodoo5, Kyro II. If I did the same as you I would declare that the Geforce, Radeon, Kyro 1 etc all had poor drivers and the Voodoo1/2/5/Kyro II have great drivers but it just doesn't work like that (especially since the Kyro and Kyro II have the same drivers). Some people have problems with some cards and some people have problems with other cards. 
 
You say: "Before you go buy one I'd wait till there are some drivers that are tweaked properly (i.e give you a frame rate better than a geforce 2 mx." 
 
Now if that were true then why does every review find that the Herc 4500 does have far supperior performance to the MX? Just because you have a bad experience with the card it doesn't mean the drivers or the card are badly made. If it did then that would mean every card and driver ever made would be bad as there are always people having problems with every card. Why don't you at least post what problem your having with the card along with your system specs and perhaps a Powerstrip diagnostic report so we can try to help you. 
 
I tried to goto that link you posted but for some reason nothing in that forum is visible. 
 
If you want driver tweaks then go here for an explanation of each option: <A HREF="http://www.paraknowya.com/articles/kyrodrvset/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.paraknowya.com/articles/kyrodrvset/</A> 
 
The two options I'd always enabled are Force Trexture Compression (when enabled this compresses large textures in any game even when TC isn't supported in the game and doesn't cause any problems with most games so leave it on for all games unless you have problems) in both the OpenGL and Direct3d optimization tabs and Force Trilinear Texture Filtering (this option when enabled doubles the speed of trilinear filtering when used in conjunction with texture compression) in the Direct3D optimization tab. I beleive OpenGL always uses the faster trilinear filtering when texture compression is enabled..

Ice Cold · Jun 4, 2001

anyway... the proper drivers indeed give better framerate... but what's your point? This message was edited by Ice Cold on 04 Jun 2001 08:21 AM

Punch_uk · Jun 5, 2001

Thanks sorry for being a bitch <IMG SRC="smileys/evil.gif"> just getting Mad, been trying to get it working all over the weekend following info from Hercules Forum. And getting No-Where, Bit of Info for you 
 
Windows Me (All upto-date from Microsoft) 
Directx8.1 Beta (Told it works better with KyroII) 
Via 431 drivers 
Epox 8KTA3+ (Latest Bios) 
Axia 1gig AMD Thunderbird @1.34gigs 
256meg ram @ 133mhz 
ISA ISDN Card 
Creative Live 5.1 (Latest Drivers) 
 
and heres the Info from Powerstrip: 
 
Diagnostic report - 04/06/2001 
-------------------------------------------------- 
PowerStrip build - 143 
Windows build - v.4.90.73010104.1 
DirectX build - v.4.08.01.0579 
OpenGL renderer - PowerVR KYRO, v.1.2.1 
 
System board 
-------------------------------------------------- 
CPU speed - 1336 MHz 
Type - VIA 8363A-686B-6A6LMPAEC-00 
BIOS - Award Bios, 04/17/2001 
AGP aperture - 64 MB 
AGP transfer mechanism - Disabled 
AGP non-local memory - (n/a) 
AGP driving value - DDh 
AGP revision - 2.00 
AGP transfer rates supported - 1x 
Current AGP transfer rate - 1x 
Sideband addressing - Enabled 
Fast write protocol - (n/a) 
AGP texturing - hardware support, but currently disabled 
 
Graphics card #1 
-------------------------------------------------- 
Identity - 3D Prophet 4500 
Memory clock - 175.00 MHz 
Graphics clock - 175.00 MHz 
IRQ - 12, not shared 
AGP revision - 2.00 
AGP transfer rates supported - 1x, 2x 
Current AGP transfer rate - 1x 
Sideband addressing - Enabled 
Display driver - pmx2.drv, v.4.12.01.3103-1.00.02.0205 
DirectX driver - pmx2hal.dll, v.4.12.01.3103-1.01.00.0618 
Attached monitor - (Standard monitor types) Super VGA 1280x1024 @ 75 Hz 
Monitor caps (1) - 1280x1024, 84kHz, 75Hz 
 
Device enumeration 
-------------------------------------------------- 
3D Prophet 4500 (0010104Ah) - using IRQ12 
VIA CPU-to-PCI/AGP bridge (03051106h) 
VIA PCI-to-PCI/AGP bridge (83051106h) 
VIA PCI-to-ISA bridge (06861106h) 
VIA IDE controller (05711106h) 
VIA Universal serial bus (USB) (30381106h) - using IRQ10 
VIA Universal serial bus (USB) (30381106h) - using IRQ10 
VIA Power management controller (30571106h) 
VIA Audio device (30581106h) 
Creative Labs Audio device (00021102h) - using IRQ11 
Creative Labs Input controller (70021102h) 
Realtek Ethernet controller (813910ECh) - using IRQ10 
HighPoint Mass storage controller (00041103h) - using IRQ11 
 
 
I Dont pretend to know what it all means. 
 
Thanks for any help and sorry for being an Arse..... 
 
Punch

Dave · Jun 5, 2001

Okay, now that I know just about everything about you except maybe your inseam. What exactly is your beef? Fps in general? Crashes? Image quality? Let me know what games your having problems with.

Punch_uk · Jun 5, 2001

Ok here we Go, 
 
I'm getting pretty poor performance in most games. For example Unreal Torn is running at 1/2 the speed it did with my GF2MX. Tribes 2 is well probably a Tribes 2 problem but can get very Slow in Fire fights. Both games are using OpenGL and @ 1024x768 16/32 colours seems to make no difference. 
 
3DMark20001 Most people with my simular systems to me are getting 4000-5000 I'm getting 2400 constant (When it doesnt hang at the round about Thingie) 
 
I got this card thinking I could run my games at 1280x1024 (I have 21" monitor) with everything switched on but im running @ 1024x768 with most effeects having to be turned off now. 
 
Thanks for your help and me Insane? arnt most people? or am i just insane..... 
 
Punch <IMG SRC="smileys/bounce.gif">

Dave · Jun 5, 2001

Okay the first thing is don't go comparing you system and its scores to what other people are telling you they get. in 3d mark 2001 I get 4600 with a gf3, athlon 1200 and 198 meg pc133. Zippidy doh da day. 
7800 I think it was in 3d mark 2000. If you want a fair comparision, surf around mad onions forums for the same setup as yours and see how they score in each benchmark. Also peek around at the mx's. 
 
UT is an odd problem, what is half speed, 40 fps? Keep bumping it up till you get to 30 fps or so. let me know where it ends. Make sure you are comparing this to offline ut gameplay. 
 
Tribes 2, what a bitch tribes 2 is gonna be. If I recall correctly tribes 2 takes advantage of t&l. Kyro 2 doesn't have t&l while a gf2 does. Now for this you may kick yourself, or you can wait for some more drivers that may help. 
 
The Kyro 2 wasn't a big jump from an mx. Keep trying and let us know how things are going. I'll see what I can do to help.

Teasy · Jun 6, 2001

<<<I'm getting pretty poor performance in most games. For example Unreal Torn is running at 1/2 the speed it did with my GF2MX. Tribes 2 is well probably a Tribes 2 problem but can get very Slow in Fire fights. Both games are using OpenGL and @ 1024x768 16/32 colours seems to make no difference.>>> 
 
Well the first thing I'd suggest is not to use OpenGL for UT, unlike the Geforce cards were OpenGL is faster for UT for Kyro cards D3D is allot faster, some people even say twice as fast. That doesn't follow for most games, as for allot of games OpenGL is as fast as D3D but as a rule on Kyro based cards if a game works with D3D then use D3D. I have no idea wether Tribes 2 can be played in D3D mode because I don't have it but if it can be played in D3D then try D3D because it is faster then OpenGL on Kyro based cards. The reason for this is that the OpenGL driver was built from the ground up for Kyro because before Kyro PowerVR didn't have a full OpenGL driver. They used MiniGL's for OpenGL for earlier cards. Where as the D3D driver is based on the D3D driver from earlier cards like the Neon250 so its allot more miture. Kyro's OpenGL driver is generally very good expecially considering the driver is still very new but on some games the OpenGL drivers immaturity shows. 
 
<<<3DMark20001 Most people with my simular systems to me are getting 4000-5000 I'm getting 2400 constant (When it doesnt hang at the round about Thingie)>>> 
 
What 3dmark2001 score did you used to get with the MX? If you still have the MX then pop it in and run through the defualt 1024x768x32 benchmark and I'm betting you won't get anywhere near 5000 or even 4000 or even 3000 for that matter, more like 2000. Perhaps your confusing 3dmark2000 with 3dmark2001? In 3dmark2000 the Kyro II will get around 6000 or more in your system. 3dmark2001 really isn't a great benchmark to use to measure performance in games, its scores just don't transfer to real games. I can get 45fps at 800x600x32 with 4xFSAA in Dagoth Moor Zoological Gardens which is a much better benchmark IMO, try to find an MX that can get anywhere near that performance, or for that matter try to find a GTS that'll get that performance. 
 
I'm puzzled as to why your stuck at 1xAGP?, but what I can see from the Powerstrip report is that its not a problem with the Kyro II as the Kyro II says 1x, 2x in the Powerstrip report, its the motherboard thats stuck at only 1x for some reason. 
 
<<>> 
 
Could you elaberate on that? Which games can't you play at 1280x1024 with everything on? Which other games do you play? 
 
Just for reference here are some benches I just did. The benches are from Quake 3's demo 2 at highest quality (absolutely everything on max quality). My system is a Duron 975mhz (overclocked Duron 750) with a 150mhz FSB on a KT7A mobo and my Kyro II is overclocked to 190mhz (15mhz overclocked): 
 
640x480x32 - 114fps 
800x600x32 - 112fps 
1024x768x32 - 93fps 
 
640x480x32 2xFSAA - 107fps 
800x600x32 2xFSAA - 85fps 
1024x768x32 2xFSAA - 55fps 
 
640x480x32 4xFSAA - 70fps 
800x600x32 4xFSAA - 47fps 
1024x768x32 4xFSAA - 29fps 
 
Again no MX is going to come near those scores. Even at 1024x768x32 4xFSAA the game is playable which to me is amazing for this card at its low price. 
 
So far the only thing I can genuanly see wrong with your system is the AGPx1 problem, the slow speeds in UT could very well be down to using OpenGL and 2400 in 3dmark2001 sounds ok for this card too. Again make sure you use the settings I mentioned earlier (force TC and trilinear filtering).

wildman69 · Jul 7, 2001

I have to agree with Teasy there....some sound words!! I'm not yet a Kyro II owner, but I soon hope to be if I can exchange this constantly crashing Geforce 2 card!! 
The main speed problem that I can see, Punch, is that your motherboard has defaulted to 1x AGP (as queried by Teasy)...your AGP port is running at only 33mhz if memory serves me right. Set it in your BIOS to 2x and it will now run at 66mhz....and you'll see the speed virtually double in your games too. In other words, your card is being held back to half speed...take your foot off the brake and set it free with 2x <IMG SRC="smileys/biggrin.gif"> <IMG SRC="smileys/biggrin.gif"> 
I don't know whether side banding is an issue with Kyro cards...??? If it's like a Geforce, or Radeon, that can cause instability so dissable it - it won't give much of a speed boost being enabled anyway, only a couple of FPS. 
Hope this is some help...

bradmax57 · Oct 22, 2001

2400 in 3dmark 2001? I'm only getting 2480 with my system so can't be that bad, also everyone says that 3dmarks does not do the Kyro any favours at all! <IMG SRC="smileys/wave.gif">

John · Nov 26, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by bradmax57: 
2400 in 3dmark 2001? I'm only getting 2480 with my system so can't be that bad, also everyone says that 3dmarks does not do the Kyro any favours at all! <IMG SRC="smileys/wave.gif"><HR></BLOCKQUOTE> 
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat..............2480 on that system <IMG SRC="smileys/puke.gif"> 
I get 2900 on my 64mb mx-400 on a t-bird 900mhz <IMG SRC="smileys/approve.gif">

Falcon · Nov 26, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by headshot: 
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat..............2480 on that system <IMG SRC="smileys/puke.gif"> 
I get 2900 on my 64mb mx-400 on a t-bird 900mhz <IMG SRC="smileys/approve.gif"><HR></BLOCKQUOTE> 
 
I think he changed his system between now and then, considering the post was from the 22 of october <IMG SRC="smileys/wink.gif">

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Think before buying a Prophet 4500 kyro II

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