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TekkMarine
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Default 05-29-2017, 01:11 | posts: 1,280 | Location: United Kingdom

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Laughing Ma View Post
It seems cities are now bringing in extra taxes for people driving Diesels, you know on top of the road tax, fuel tax and congestion tax you may also now be paying for a Diesel tax.
After a lengthy conversation with the car sales man this just isn't true. It's a weird one, petrol seems to produce more Co2 emissions where as modern diesel engines produce less but contain a mix of chemicals that are more toxic to humans.

To update the story, another prospect has taken the car right under my nose.
   
 
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Loobyluggs
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Default 06-01-2017, 07:57 | posts: 2,205 | Location: UK

If I am in a position where I need a car ever again, I'd get fully electric with an air filtration system NASA would be happy with.
   
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  (#28)
thatguy91
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Default 06-01-2017, 09:18 | posts: 6,355 | Location: Australia

Main problem with diesels like I said previously is the fuel. If you used the right fuel you woudn't likely need a DPF at all. Because of the compression ratio etc, diesel create more NO2 emissions, however like petrol cars this can be resolved with catalytic converters. If you had a long, dual low CPU catalytic this can be overcome, however adding to the cost of the vehicle a bit. That said, since you wouldn't need a DPF this would well and truly covert the cost of a larger cat.

Unfortunately it's not as easily as that, the main issue would be reluctance or stubborness to move ahead. Maybe should just run on 100 percent biodiesel.

Last edited by thatguy91; 06-01-2017 at 09:21.
   
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  (#29)
IcE
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Default 06-02-2017, 10:27 | posts: 10,627 | Location: Toledo

Quote:
Originally Posted by thatguy91 View Post
Main problem with diesels like I said previously is the fuel. If you used the right fuel you woudn't likely need a DPF at all. Because of the compression ratio etc, diesel create more NO2 emissions, however like petrol cars this can be resolved with catalytic converters. If you had a long, dual low CPU catalytic this can be overcome, however adding to the cost of the vehicle a bit. That said, since you wouldn't need a DPF this would well and truly covert the cost of a larger cat.

Unfortunately it's not as easily as that, the main issue would be reluctance or stubborness to move ahead. Maybe should just run on 100 percent biodiesel.
Impossible. We already run our transportation network on a giant oil deficit. No way there would be enough farmland on earth to make enough biodiesel for everyone, even in a hypothetical pre-electric period alone. Truck and bus fleets by themselves are huge diesel hogs. My work fleet uses 80 gallons per unit each night, and we have over 100 units a day on the road. And that's just one small fleet.
   
 
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Default 06-05-2017, 03:51 | posts: 19,868 | Location: US East Coast

I'm not sure he was suggesting the entire world switch to biodiesel... For a single person, running 100% biodiesel is rather easy. We've had customers that have run 100% biodiesel without any issue, and even managed to help out local "chinese" restaurants in the process... (Not trying to offend anyone of Chinese origin, but the restaurants here typically sell the same food you can find in the local grocery store freezer section. They just cook it for you.)


   
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  (#31)
sykozis
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Default 06-05-2017, 03:54 | posts: 19,868 | Location: US East Coast

Quote:
Originally Posted by IcE View Post
SUV's and light duty trucks are still in a loophole when it comes to emission and mileage requirements, as far as I'm aware.

With that said, diesel is more energy dense than gasoline, and the design of a diesel engine means you can extract more torque with less mechanical effort/cost. The downside is that since a diesel engine is modulated by fuel input, its very slow to respond to changes in load, and unburned fuel is a guarantee. Petrol is much better about this and runs much cleaner, although there's a tipping point when gasoline costs more in C02 for certain applications, namely heavy equipment.

I think for commuter cars, petrol is always going to be superior. But that's just my opinion.
There is no "emissions loophole" for Diesel equipped passenger vehicles. If there was, they wouldn't have so many emissions controls to cause problems. Emissions regulations for diesel equipped passenger vehicles are very strict.


   
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  (#32)
IcE
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Default 06-09-2017, 07:35 | posts: 10,627 | Location: Toledo

Quote:
Originally Posted by sykozis View Post
There is no "emissions loophole" for Diesel equipped passenger vehicles. If there was, they wouldn't have so many emissions controls to cause problems. Emissions regulations for diesel equipped passenger vehicles are very strict.
I was talking about gasoline light trucks and SUV's, not diesels.
   
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  (#33)
Loobyluggs
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Default 06-09-2017, 09:45 | posts: 2,205 | Location: UK

Just realised the thrust of your post in reality: you have a 20 mile commute, go electric, you simply do not need a combustion engine -

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...icles_V149.pdf

Zero TAX
Zero Emission
Zero Fuel Costs

If you got room for a Solar Panel on your property, well; times' they be a changing for you sir!

https://www.gov.uk/feed-in-tariffs

So, the UK government helps you significantly here and it's a gravy train of cash backs and tax breaks - plus, you will sleep better at night. And that's a fact.

And if none of what I've written here scores a mark for you - next time you go to put fuel in your car and have to deal with queuing for fuel, taking in the toxic fumes, spilling fuel on your loafers, standing right next to several thousand gallons of combustible materials and static electricity everywhere - not to mention the pain and suffering you feel from watching the fuel gauge drain your wallet as it tick-tick-tick-ticks away the money you worked hard for...just think about this: you do not need to be there, ever again.

It's your money, but owning a combustible engine is just throwing your hard earned money away.
   
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kanej2007
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Default 06-09-2017, 11:25 | posts: 8,232 | Location: London, United Kingdom

Diesel f*ck**g stinks!!!
   
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  (#35)
The Laughing Ma
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Default 06-09-2017, 15:40 | posts: 3,101

Quote:
It's your money, but owning a combustible engine is just throwing your hard earned money away.
Yup but get the right car and my god is it a f*ck load of fun but you could of course do a lot worse, you could buy an electric car instead. You can then live happy in the knowledge that you have bought a stupidly over priced vehicle that during it's life time you will never recoup the initial purchase cost over a similar spec combustion vehicle and from birth to death is just as bad for the environment.
   
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Barry J
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Default 06-09-2017, 16:10 | posts: 2,562 | Location: Ipswich UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by kanej2007 View Post
Diesel f*ck**g stinks!!!
Maybe it does if your behind one, I can honestly say when driving my 2015 Jaguar Sportbrake diesel I have never had that problem. And as it stops the engine when I stop I guess it does not smell then.
   
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  (#37)
The Laughing Ma
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Default 06-09-2017, 18:44 | posts: 3,101

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry J View Post
Maybe it does if your behind one, I can honestly say when driving my 2015 Jaguar Sportbrake diesel I have never had that problem. And as it stops the engine when I stop I guess it does not smell then.
He may be talking about the actual liquid fuel, in which case yeah 100% agree it does and worse if you get even a tiny bit of it on yourself it doesn't matter how much you wash or how much soap you use it seems to takes ages to get rid of the smell.
   
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Loobyluggs
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Default 06-09-2017, 19:10 | posts: 2,205 | Location: UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Laughing Ma View Post
Yup but get the right car and my god is it a f*ck load of fun but you could of course do a lot worse, you could buy an electric car instead. You can then live happy in the knowledge that you have bought a stupidly over priced vehicle that during it's life time you will never recoup the initial purchase cost over a similar spec combustion vehicle and from birth to death is just as bad for the environment.
OP just wants a personal transportation vehicle to do 100 miles to work and back on a 5 day rotation.

It wasn't a debate on the environmental impact of combustion engines, just the cost - and here in the U.K., we got tax breaks galore for making a electric vehicle a no-brainer.
   
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  (#39)
Anarion
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Default 06-09-2017, 22:19 | posts: 12,884 | Location: Finland

Diesels suck. They should ban those.
   
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The Laughing Ma
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Default 06-09-2017, 23:57 | posts: 3,101

Quote:
OP just wants a personal transportation vehicle to do 100 miles to work and back on a 5 day rotation.

It wasn't a debate on the environmental impact of combustion engines, just the cost - and here in the U.K., we got tax breaks galore for making a electric vehicle a no-brainer.
In that you would have to have no brain to buy one? Fair enough!

The factors that typically do not get rolled out when taking in to account the cost of EVs. (EV cost factors are based on the Nissan Leaf since it is the best selling EV on the market)

- Firstly the initial cost vs equivalent ICE models will never be recoup over the typical ownership period. 3 years in most cases.

- Second you can either buy the battery, expect to stump up even more cash for that car and hope that nothing ever goes wrong with it because you'll be looking at 5,000 for a new one or you can lease the battery a cost that seems to get ignored by many. How does 70 a month over a three year contract hit you? I could run my 2.0Tdi for a month and over 500miles on 70 a month. Oh and better yet that contract limits you too a nice 7500 miles a year.

- Third fancy owning a car that will be worth nothing when you come to sell it? Well go for an EV since they are amongst some of the fastest deprecating cars on the market. (3 of 10 in this survey are EV including the best selling EV the Nissan Leaf and ironically a car that usually requires a bomb to have gone off in it to shift it's used sale value the VW Golf.)

https://www.whatcar.com/news/fastest...iating-cars-3/

It doesn't matter how much you save on fuel, road tax, rebates the reality is you will loose more money when you come to sell that car on than you would on ANY other vehicle. How does 75% of it's initial purchase value sound after only three years? (In money terms that's 20,000 on a car that cost 28,000 brand new.) Tell me did you save 20,000 worth in fuel and road tax over those three years?

Last edited by The Laughing Ma; 06-10-2017 at 00:33.
   
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  (#41)
Loobyluggs
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Default 06-10-2017, 23:08 | posts: 2,205 | Location: UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Laughing Ma View Post
In that you would have to have no brain to buy one? Fair enough!

The factors that typically do not get rolled out when taking in to account the cost of EVs. (EV cost factors are based on the Nissan Leaf since it is the best selling EV on the market)

- Firstly the initial cost vs equivalent ICE models will never be recoup over the typical ownership period. 3 years in most cases.

- Second you can either buy the battery, expect to stump up even more cash for that car and hope that nothing ever goes wrong with it because you'll be looking at 5,000 for a new one or you can lease the battery a cost that seems to get ignored by many. How does 70 a month over a three year contract hit you? I could run my 2.0Tdi for a month and over 500miles on 70 a month. Oh and better yet that contract limits you too a nice 7500 miles a year.

- Third fancy owning a car that will be worth nothing when you come to sell it? Well go for an EV since they are amongst some of the fastest deprecating cars on the market. (3 of 10 in this survey are EV including the best selling EV the Nissan Leaf and ironically a car that usually requires a bomb to have gone off in it to shift it's used sale value the VW Golf.)

https://www.whatcar.com/news/fastest...iating-cars-3/

It doesn't matter how much you save on fuel, road tax, rebates the reality is you will loose more money when you come to sell that car on than you would on ANY other vehicle. How does 75% of it's initial purchase value sound after only three years? (In money terms that's 20,000 on a car that cost 28,000 brand new.) Tell me did you save 20,000 worth in fuel and road tax over those three years?
All cars lose value, this is why you lease with value protection. If you choose to buy a brand new car (few do this for the very reason you mentioned) then people who buy an SUV are protected the best as these will hold the best value.

Now, if you do not buy a new car, then you undo your own argument if you suggest that buying an electric car that is 3 years' old will mean an even greater saving...think about it, you actually get what is the steal of the century, as there surely must be boatloads of morons out there buying new cars that are not electric and are loosing soooooo much damn money than Mister Smart who buys an electric car 3+ years' old. If electric cars lose the most value, then they are the cheapest car to own! If you are just driving it to work and back 5 times a week, you just made it make even more sense than it already did to begin with!

Choice one: buy an electric car for 8k that is only 3 years' old
Choice two: buy a new car for 28k for a 30 mile roundtrip 5 times a week...plus have to buy fuel and watch your salary tick away. Is it any wonder everyone at the forecourt buying fuel are miserable and agitated?

Still a no-brainer 'sir.

https://www.whatcar.com/car-leasing/...?fuel=electric

I found this at the link you used, thanks, very informative
   
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  (#42)
Mufflore
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Default 06-11-2017, 01:54 | posts: 10,115 | Location: United states of Kingdom

You didnt include battery replacement.
They dont hold the max mileage as they age.

Why do you have to pay 28K for an ICE vehicle?

ps 150 miles a week is only 20.
Hardly bleeding cash.

Last edited by Mufflore; 06-11-2017 at 01:57.
   
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IcE
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Default 06-11-2017, 11:24 | posts: 10,627 | Location: Toledo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loobyluggs View Post
All cars lose value, this is why you lease with value protection. If you choose to buy a brand new car (few do this for the very reason you mentioned) then people who buy an SUV are protected the best as these will hold the best value.

Now, if you do not buy a new car, then you undo your own argument if you suggest that buying an electric car that is 3 years' old will mean an even greater saving...think about it, you actually get what is the steal of the century, as there surely must be boatloads of morons out there buying new cars that are not electric and are loosing soooooo much damn money than Mister Smart who buys an electric car 3+ years' old. If electric cars lose the most value, then they are the cheapest car to own! If you are just driving it to work and back 5 times a week, you just made it make even more sense than it already did to begin with!

Choice one: buy an electric car for 8k that is only 3 years' old
Choice two: buy a new car for 28k for a 30 mile roundtrip 5 times a week...plus have to buy fuel and watch your salary tick away. Is it any wonder everyone at the forecourt buying fuel are miserable and agitated?

Still a no-brainer 'sir.

https://www.whatcar.com/car-leasing/...?fuel=electric

I found this at the link you used, thanks, very informative
Leases are unintelligent no matter what if you're trying to save money though. If you want to be in a new car regularly and not worry about maintenance, they're great for that. But it's the most expensive way to drive a car today. They used to be much better, but now its much harder to get zero down leases and retain enough residual at the end (while staying in mileage budget) and being able to jump to the next one.

A slightly used, certified car with around 20,000 miles or less is the smartest buy in my opinion. Electric is neat, but has some huge downsides. Namely the long charge times and short range. The Leaf takes like 8 hours to charge. If you just put to work back and forth, great. But what if you want to visit family far away or drive to a cool destination? They better be within 80 miles or you're SOL. The Tesla is the only electric car that gets around this with a logistic network of supercharging stations and a range just as good as a tank of gasoline. But they cost a crap ton of money.

There's also the above mentioned problem of heavy depreciation (way faster than the average) and the expense of battery packs meaning you don't save any money at all.
   
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  (#44)
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Default 06-11-2017, 12:22 | posts: 73 | Location: Indiana

Lol, Petrol. Can't say I ever heard anyone actually call it petrol. Sounds like a Canadian or UK thing.
   
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jbmcmillan
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Default 06-11-2017, 13:17 | posts: 2,245 | Location: Langley,B.C. Canada

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vibe View Post
Lol, Petrol. Can't say I ever heard anyone actually call it petrol. Sounds like a Canadian or UK thing.
That's UK Canadians call it gas.
   
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  (#46)
Mufflore
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Default 06-11-2017, 15:07 | posts: 10,115 | Location: United states of Kingdom

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vibe View Post
Lol, Petrol. Can't say I ever heard anyone actually call it petrol. Sounds like a Canadian or UK thing.
Yep, its English :p
   
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  (#47)
The Laughing Ma
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Default 06-11-2017, 19:12 | posts: 3,101

Quote:
Choice one: buy an electric car for 8k that is only 3 years' old
Choice two: buy a new car for 28k for a 30 mile roundtrip 5 times a week...plus have to buy fuel and watch your salary tick away. Is it any wonder everyone at the forecourt buying fuel are miserable and agitated?
Now I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and just assume that you missed this choice rather than choosing to ignore it because you knew it pretty much puts the final nail in your already stone dead argument, but what about

Choice 3: Buy a second hand petrol car for 3,000, that's 3 years old 20,000mile 1.2L and THAT was just a very quick look on Auto Trader I am sure a more detailed look will find something for cheaper.

Yeah Petrol or Diesel is what we put in our cars over here in the UK, gas is what we use to cook food and heat our homes.

Last edited by The Laughing Ma; 06-11-2017 at 19:19.
   
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  (#48)
jbmcmillan
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Default 06-11-2017, 19:32 | posts: 2,245 | Location: Langley,B.C. Canada

Quote:
Yeah Petrol or Diesel is what we put in our cars over here in the UK, gas is what we use to cook food and heat our homes.
We call that gas as well.Sometimes for cars we use fuel but not so many people do that.
   
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  (#49)
Loobyluggs
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Default 06-11-2017, 20:01 | posts: 2,205 | Location: UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Laughing Ma View Post
Now I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and just assume that you missed this choice rather than choosing to ignore it because you knew it pretty much puts the final nail in your already stone dead argument, but what about

Choice 3: Buy a second hand petrol car for 3,000, that's 3 years old 20,000mile 1.2L and THAT was just a very quick look on Auto Trader I am sure a more detailed look will find something for cheaper.

Yeah Petrol or Diesel is what we put in our cars over here in the UK, gas is what we use to cook food and heat our homes.
I was replying in kind to your points 'sir. You spoke of new cars and depreciation, which only made the point that an electric car 3+ years old will have dropped in value more than any competition.

So - do electric cars drop in value more than combustion engines, or not?
   
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  (#50)
TekkMarine
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Default 06-11-2017, 23:20 | posts: 1,280 | Location: United Kingdom

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loobyluggs View Post
And if none of what I've written here scores a mark for you - next time you go to put fuel in your car and have to deal with queuing for fuel, taking in the toxic fumes, spilling fuel on your loafers, standing right next to several thousand gallons of combustible materials and static electricity everywhere - not to mention the pain and suffering you feel from watching the fuel gauge drain your wallet as it tick-tick-tick-ticks away the money you worked hard for...just think about this: you do not need to be there, ever again.

haha, awesome post!

I've contemplated, and funnily enough ill be getting solar panels installed on my property. The thought of an electric car depresses the **** out of me, that will almost certainly kill me allot faster than toxic fumes. "Loafers"... how did you know?

Last edited by TekkMarine; 06-17-2017 at 21:24. Reason: SP
   
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