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Petrol vs Diesel
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TekkMarine
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Default Petrol vs Diesel - 05-22-2017, 19:44 | posts: 1,280 | Location: United Kingdom

Evening,

Buying my first diesel car, looking at the same car in a petrol version with the MPG about a half less. Most advise ive been told has been against diesel cars and don't understand as to why when the saving is more than double on fuel compared to a petrol version.

(mpg)
Diesel:Urban 47.9, Extra Urban 70.6, 60.1 Combined.
Petrol:Urban 24.1, Extra Urban 42.2, 33.2 Combined.

My daily commute is 19.6 miles with heavy traffic, about 4.73 for a Petrol and 2.25 for diesel. Using Fuel-Economy.co.uk & the MPG urban measurement. I'm right in the sense that fuel savings won't outweigh servicing costs?
   
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sykozis
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Default 05-22-2017, 20:01 | posts: 19,856 | Location: US East Coast

Look up the "cost of ownership" for both models and see which is ultimately cheaper.


   
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TekkMarine
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Default 05-22-2017, 20:10 | posts: 1,280 | Location: United Kingdom

Quote:
Originally Posted by sykozis View Post
Look up the "cost of ownership" for both models and see which is ultimately cheaper.
It's not that simple and new legislation for higher tax on diesel cars ontop of already more expensive insurance costs might be passed fairly soon.
   
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Default 05-22-2017, 20:38 | posts: 1,270 | Location: In my house

Diesel cars are really bad at stop and starting on many smaller trips, Diesel only makes sense if you are driving for long hours and mostly in 5th gear.

The Urban mpg of a Diesel is a myth, especially if you are stopping and starting the car a lot on small journeys.
   
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Default 05-22-2017, 20:52 | posts: 4,092 | Location: Beech Island SC,USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by TekkMarine View Post
It's not that simple and new legislation for higher tax on diesel cars ontop of already more expensive insurance costs might be passed fairly soon.
That is^ "cost of ownership" Right?
   
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Default 05-22-2017, 21:59 | posts: 2,562 | Location: Ipswich UK

Modern diesels have a DPF these are not great for mostly town driving better if the car does mix of driving. Petrol is better for town driving Diesel for long runs.

http://blog.greenflag.com/2014/diese...need-know-dpf/
   
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TekkMarine
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Default 05-22-2017, 22:16 | posts: 1,280 | Location: United Kingdom

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry J View Post
Modern diesels have a DPF these are not great for mostly town driving better if the car does mix of driving. Petrol is better for town driving Diesel for long runs.

http://blog.greenflag.com/2014/diese...need-know-dpf/
Thanks, good read!

Author does state however that it can be negated doing a high rev stretch every now and then. The cars also a BMW so i'm willing to put some faith in it's manufacturing.
   
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Default 05-23-2017, 00:56 | posts: 124 | Location: The Urban Wastelands of the USA

Diesel is the only way to go...especially when the zombies come and you have an unlimited supply of free fuel...just melt them down and burn away!!!
Of course I'm kinda biased, I am in the desert southwest of the usa, and I have a 7.3 litre turbo diesel E 350 van....but hey!!
Frankly if I only had a short commute and never drove the length of baja every few months, I wouldn't bother, its noisy, takes 15 minutes to warm up....but I love it!

By the way the new diesels have a regen cycle that burn-cleans the converter and gets the EGR cleaned out from the DEF buildup.
The length of the trip has very little effect on a modern diesel engine.

Last edited by Coolerking; 05-23-2017 at 00:59.
   
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Default 05-23-2017, 04:06 | posts: 6,353 | Location: Australia

The Ironic thing about that 7.3 is that it emits much more pollutants than any of the Volkswagen vehicles even when you take into account engine size. Pickups come under very different rules. It was purely a money grab, if Volkswagen were American you can guarantee 100 percent the fine would have been a fraction of what it was. Remember General Motors knowingly used defective engine ignition key locks for 10 or so years, even with the knowledge of the deaths and lifelong injuries. They got fined 10 percent of the Volkswagen fine despite hundreds of deaths, paraplegia, quadriplegia etc. Apparently cheating emissions for better fuel economy (increases NO2), but still emit less than non-passenger vehicles that includes pickups (even taking into account the engine size) is very much greater than 10 times worse than killing and destroying the lives of hundreds of people. When you take into account the number of vehicles affected in the US by GM, and the number of pickups etc with different emission rules, the figure is very much significantly more than the GM fine.

I guess what can you expect from a country where a guy can spend $1 for a large pack of malt balls and sue for the packet having some free space. This has gone to trial, even though the packet was true to label in terms of weight and number of contents.
   
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Coolerking
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Default 05-23-2017, 04:14 | posts: 124 | Location: The Urban Wastelands of the USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by thatguy91 View Post
The Ironic thing about that 7.3 is that it emits much more pollutants than any of the Volkswagen vehicles even when you take into account engine size. Pickups come under very different rules. It was purely a money grab, if Volkswagen were American you can guarantee 100 percent the fine would have been a fraction of what it was. Remember General Motors knowingly used defective engine ignition key locks for 10 or so years, even with the knowledge of the deaths and lifelong injuries. They got fined 10 percent of the Volkswagen fine despite hundreds of deaths, paraplegia, quadriplegia etc. Apparently cheating emissions for better fuel economy (increases NO2), but still emit less than non-passenger vehicles that includes pickups (even taking into account the engine size) is very much greater than 10 times worse than killing and destroying the lives of hundreds of people. When you take into account the number of vehicles affected in the US by GM, and the number of pickups etc with different emission rules, the figure is very much significantly more than the GM fine.

I guess what can you expect from a country where a guy can spend $1 for a large pack of malt balls and sue for the packet having some free space. This has gone to trial, even though the packet was true to label in terms of weight and number of contents.
Whoa....slow your roll sir, first, the 7.3 is also known as a navistar 444, and was used by Ford, not GM, it is a very reliable engine, known for routinely getting a million miles of use during its life. They are used in ambulances, farm equipment.
But hey, ever seen a battery recycling operation?
Talk about lawsuits....
   
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thatguy91
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Default 05-23-2017, 05:38 | posts: 6,353 | Location: Australia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coolerking View Post
Whoa....slow your roll sir, first, the 7.3 is also known as a navistar 444, and was used by Ford, not GM, it is a very reliable engine, known for routinely getting a million miles of use during its life. They are used in ambulances, farm equipment.
But hey, ever seen a battery recycling operation?
Talk about lawsuits....
I wasn't saying it was a GM engine. All those applications of GM, Chrysler, Ford etc diesels are in non-passenger class vehicles. These vehicles, even taking into account engine size, emit far more of the nasties than the Volswagen engines were. Yes, Volkswagen did the wrong thing, but should pickups be exempt from the same rules even though they are typical used as oversized passenger vehicles? They are, even if you do use them for other purposes. That aside, I think it's disgusting that GM can get away with over a hundred counts of knowingly causing manslaughter, destroying hundreds of peoples lives with lifelong injuries, and continuing to use the defective parts over many model years despite knowing this. Comparatively getting a gentle slap on the wrist against getting tens of billions from Volkswagen for cheating is bad. Imagine if things were identical but GM and Volkswagen were switched (Volkswagen lock, GM emissions). I doubt GM's fine would have been even as high as what it was for the ignition locks, yet they would have pushed Volkswagen with those 100+ cases of knowingly causing manslaughter and destroying peoples lives (and these are just the cases they know about).

Apparently it has been found that in typical use scenarios, diesels emit more than they do in test scenerios even without cheating. This could be negated with using more advanced fuels, diesels do have the advantage of being able to run on several different fuel sources.

If you do get a diesel, make sure you get one that is at least biodiesel compatible. It might sound like I was anti-diesel in my posts, I would actually quite happily own a diesel vehicle. I just wanted to make aware of the politics surrounding it as it could effect future vehicles. It's quite possible that they will stamp an emissions tax on it in several countries, which of course would just a be a tax grab since it wouldn't address the problem and that extra cost impost could go towards better quality source fuel.

Since diesels are much better with constant load and not changing load, it's silly hybrid diesels haven't taken off. I'm not referring to full on plug-in hybrid, just something simple like electric assisted drivetrain powered by capacitors (storage for braking energy and engine production load), and providing assitance when driving powered by the engine.

Of course, you could always go the route of LPG injecton, or even petrol injection! Might sound counterintuitive injecting LPG or petrol in with the diesel but it does very noticeably improve power, reduce fuel use, and improve emissions, and this reflects my earlier point. The issue with diesel engines isn't so much the engines, it's the crappy distillate fuel that needs to be replaced with something better. LPG/petrol injection proves that better fuel would be hugely advantageous.

The real question is though whether that will actually happen, and if it did whether it would be a proper implementation or just enough change to keep people happy.

BIG POINT - as it stands, current diesel fuel (distillate) will mean cars WILL NOT meet future emissions standards. I don't see adding a second or third DPF and catalytic converter as practical solutions.
   
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CalculuS
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Default 05-23-2017, 07:34 | posts: 2,728 | Location: Netherlands

Diesel cars have triple the tax of petrol cars which is why they are more expensive.

If you have a business and make a lot of miles it pays off.
   
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Default 05-23-2017, 12:39 | posts: 10,114 | Location: United states of Kingdom

There are valid health concerns, below is only the latest find.
Be sure there are more and they will find more.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...-coughing.html

Quote:
Diesel fumes are proven for the first time to cause coughing and shortness of breath
   
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Default 05-23-2017, 15:59 | posts: 11,485 | Location: Finland

What do you mean with heavy traffic? Just moving slowly or many stops at traffic lights?

If you have many stops are traffic lights and so, why not a petrol hybrid ?
   
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Default 05-23-2017, 16:50 | posts: 6,353 | Location: Australia

Hybrids cost a lot of money and there are drawbacks in the current designs. I like the concept of electrically assisted vehicle over full electric or current hybrids. The idea it's quite eloquent and more viable for most people.
   
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Default 05-23-2017, 17:08 | posts: 2,450 | Location: U.K

Have you driven both cars and actually factored in which one you like ?

For simplicity and cost of servicing the Petrol version is usually the one to go for.
Modern Diesels are incredibly complex and things can get expensive if they go wrong, or sometimes they require some expensive servicing (if you have them serviced at main dealer). Touch wood it won't go wrong though......
High Pressure fuel injectors, turbos, DPF's, EGR's etc etc.
I have a Mazda diesel and at 5years old it will require a 800+ sevice.

However.......
They have their pros...
Often more powerful and livelier than their (non-turbo) Petrol cousins. Better Mpg- yes you will get better mpg around town than a petrol, but only slightly. Longer journeys where you are cruising is where they shine though.
Cheaper road tax.

Tough call, i'd drive both versions if I were you first. You may find one of them you like better than the other after a test drive.
   
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TekkMarine
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Default 05-23-2017, 20:16 | posts: 1,280 | Location: United Kingdom

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tat3 View Post
What do you mean with heavy traffic? Just moving slowly or many stops at traffic lights?
If you have many stops are traffic lights and so, why not a petrol hybrid ?
It's moving slowly, lots of traffic lights.
Petrol hybrid? ive considered it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slickric21 View Post
Better Mpg- yes you will get better mpg around town than a petrol, but only slightly. Longer journeys where you are cruising is where they shine though.
Cheaper road tax.
The petrol is 1/3 more expensive for a half less MPG, that fuel calculator probably doesn't account for time sitting in traffic but rather some kinda average. Real data suggest that you can expect about 5-20% off your cars advertised MPG.

The journey time to the dealership is quite a distance, will try out a Diesel variant this Saturday at a local BMW and make a decision.
   
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Mufflore
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Default 05-26-2017, 13:26 | posts: 10,114 | Location: United states of Kingdom

That didnt take long
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/ar...rt-damage.html
Quote:
Researchers from Queen Mary University of London found that inhaling small particles in diesel fumes makes the heart enlarge, reducing its ability to pump blood around the body.
   
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Default 05-26-2017, 13:43 | posts: 124 | Location: The Urban Wastelands of the USA

That's a real informative article.
Breathing air is bad for you, being uneducated is bad for you.
I'm stunned.
   
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Mufflore
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Default 05-26-2017, 14:49 | posts: 10,114 | Location: United states of Kingdom

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coolerking View Post
That's a real informative article.
Breathing air is bad for you, being uneducated is bad for you.
I'm stunned.
I guess there is some truth in that part given your stance.
Reading clearly isnt your forte if thats all you got from it.
   
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Steven Hone
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Default 05-26-2017, 16:01 | posts: 2,244 | Location: Ireland

Deisel is now shown to be a poisenous and horrible fuel.

Engines are expensive to repair due to all the tech required to make that work.

Petrol is way more fun.

I have an Audi a3 2016 Saloon S Line with a 1.4L turbo Petrol

Getting average 40 - 50mpg on normal city type use. 60mpg on highway

Last edited by Steven Hone; 05-26-2017 at 20:50.
   
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Default 05-27-2017, 03:47 | posts: 19,856 | Location: US East Coast

Quote:
Originally Posted by airbud7 View Post
That is^ "cost of ownership" Right?
That would generally be included in "cost of ownership"... "Cost of ownership" takes into every dime you'll expect to spend over the life of vehicle ownership, not taking into account repairs as a result of mechanical failures.

Cost of Ownership = (annual fuel cost multiplied by expected years of ownership) + (annual government imposed taxes multiplied by expected years of ownership) + (annual cost of insurance multiplied by expected years of ownership) + (expected routine maintenance costs multiplied by expected occurrences during ownership) + (cost of vehicle purchase + tax at time of purchased)

For the record, a Hybrid vehicle will have a higher "cost of ownership" than a standard gasoline powered vehicle if you keep it for the full life of the vehicle.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Coolerking View Post
Whoa....slow your roll sir, first, the 7.3 is also known as a navistar 444, and was used by Ford, not GM, it is a very reliable engine, known for routinely getting a million miles of use during its life. They are used in ambulances, farm equipment.
But hey, ever seen a battery recycling operation?
Talk about lawsuits....
The 7.3 Liter is still the most reliable engine ever put in a Ford product.... International knew what they were doing with that engine. The 6.0ltr and 6.4ltr are the least reliable.....lol Also built by International....

Quote:
Originally Posted by thatguy91 View Post
I wasn't saying it was a GM engine. All those applications of GM, Chrysler, Ford etc diesels are in non-passenger class vehicles.
The E-series, which utilizes a Diesel engine, is a "passenger class vehicle" as is the F-series. The T-series (ugh....hate that name) also has an available diesel engine and is also a "passenger class vehicle". The F-350/E-350/T-350 and below, are all "passenger class vehicles". The F-450 is a commercial vehicle.



Last edited by sykozis; 05-27-2017 at 03:58.
   
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IcE
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Default 05-27-2017, 08:49 | posts: 10,627 | Location: Toledo

SUV's and light duty trucks are still in a loophole when it comes to emission and mileage requirements, as far as I'm aware.

With that said, diesel is more energy dense than gasoline, and the design of a diesel engine means you can extract more torque with less mechanical effort/cost. The downside is that since a diesel engine is modulated by fuel input, its very slow to respond to changes in load, and unburned fuel is a guarantee. Petrol is much better about this and runs much cleaner, although there's a tipping point when gasoline costs more in C02 for certain applications, namely heavy equipment.

I think for commuter cars, petrol is always going to be superior. But that's just my opinion.
   
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Default 05-27-2017, 19:00 | posts: 3,097

Dumped Diesel this time round a few reasons

Dieselgate pretty much killed any chance of going down one of VW group cars, my last three cars and now my fourth have all been part of the VW group the chances of me buying a Diesel that has had the VW Dieselgate fix and the associated problems that go with it, higher fuel burn, lower power, lower response and potential EGR issues meant a Diesel was a no go.

I also wanted to go for something with a bit more power than my 170 2.0TDi had. Problem with that is that the only way to get more power out of the Diesel group cars seems to be to go for a much much larger engine. In essence not many Diesels out there around the 2.0L mark that produce over 200Bhp.

In the end I went for a Leon Cupra with a 2.0 TFSi Petrol, depending on how I drive I'll get 310miles out of a tank (that's a combo of driving like a nut, something having 280BHp allows with ease, and driving in comfort mod, so far haven't used the cars eco mode) used to get around 370miles out of my 2.0TDi and the cost of filling both cars out works out around the same given the higher Diesel cost.

The reality is that after years of encouraging us to go for Diesels it seems that Diesel cars are now on the hit list. They are loosing value, getting more costly to run (DPF, Ad Blue etc, more complex mechanics) and it seems cities are now bringing in extra taxes for people driving Diesels, you know on top of the road tax, fuel tax and congestion tax you may also now be paying for a Diesel tax.
   
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Default 05-27-2017, 19:46 | posts: 4,552 | Location: Spain

Old diesels are unhealthy as ****, new ones not much.


Also, you should avoid DPF for city driving
   
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