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sykozis
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Default 01-16-2017, 23:57 | posts: 19,966 | Location: US East Coast

Quote:
Originally Posted by RealNC View Post
I mean, isn't the vapor's temperature 300 degrees or something like that?
Not even close to 300 degrees. The temperatures varies by the amount of power that's applied to the heating element. The vapor actually cools very quickly. If the vapor was 300 degrees, it would immediately burn the mouth and tongue as well as the throat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
Early trails have shown that with excessive use vaping can damage the throat. So to say it's 'safe' it not true at all.
To believe that, I'd have to see the data from said trials. If those trials were conducted using similar guidelines to the study published in the New England Journal of Medicine, the results are invalid.

Also, how early are we talking? Newer studies, conducted over the last 2 years, have been done using vaporizers utilizing organic Japanese cotton as the wicking material, as opposed to the silica and ceramic based wicking materials that were used 2+ years ago. Ceramic based wicking materials suffered from particle transfer (just like Newport cigarettes), which resulted in small pieces of ceramic fiber entering the throat (also just like Newport cigarettes). When adequately saturated, cotton does not suffer from this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
The scary part is that no one knows what is in the vape they are inhaling. Try and find and info on it and you wont.
Actually, some of us know exactly what's in the liquid we're using.

Based on the Japanese study, there are no carcinogens present when vaping products are used in accordance with manufacturer's recommendations. The conclusion in the Japanese study was that vaping is "relatively safe when compared to smoking". In regards to "second hand contact"....the Japanese study determined that there was no risk to health of bystanders.


   
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RealNC
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Default 01-17-2017, 04:19 | posts: 1,160

(Never mind. I probably am horribly confused.)

Last edited by RealNC; 01-17-2017 at 04:24.
   
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Ghosty
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Default 01-17-2017, 08:15 | posts: 4,876

Quote:
Originally Posted by sykozis View Post
To believe that, I'd have to see the data from said trials. If those trials were conducted using similar guidelines to the study published in the New England Journal of Medicine, the results are invalid.
BBC Horizon did a program on vaping last year asking the same questions about how safe was it. Towards the end they start their own tests to see the short term effects. What they found was that increased inflammation in the lungs, which became less and less once the person stopped vaping.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36338280

Quote:
Originally Posted by sykozis
Also, how early are we talking? Newer studies, conducted over the last 2 years, have been done using vaporizers utilizing organic Japanese cotton as the wicking material, as opposed to the silica and ceramic based wicking materials that were used 2+ years ago. Ceramic based wicking materials suffered from particle transfer (just like Newport cigarettes), which resulted in small pieces of ceramic fiber entering the throat (also just like Newport cigarettes). When adequately saturated, cotton does not suffer from this.



Actually, some of us know exactly what's in the liquid we're using.

Based on the Japanese study, there are no carcinogens present when vaping products are used in accordance with manufacturer's recommendations. The conclusion in the Japanese study was that vaping is "relatively safe when compared to smoking". In regards to "second hand contact"....the Japanese study determined that there was no risk to health of bystanders.
The key word they is 'relatively safe'. We won't know for another 20 or so year to see the lasting long term damage. Perhaps vaping is safe, well safer than smoking, but then again almost anything is.

Last edited by Ghosty; 01-17-2017 at 08:18.
   
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sykozis
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Default 01-17-2017, 11:59 | posts: 19,966 | Location: US East Coast

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
BBC Horizon did a program on vaping last year asking the same questions about how safe was it. Towards the end they start their own tests to see the short term effects. What they found was that increased inflammation in the lungs, which became less and less once the person stopped vaping.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36338280

The key word they is 'relatively safe'. We won't know for another 20 or so year to see the lasting long term damage. Perhaps vaping is safe, well safer than smoking, but then again almost anything is.
From your article...

Quote:
E-cigs are not risk free and after a month of heavy vaping there were signs of increased inflammation in my lungs (which rapidly reversed when I stopped). Nonetheless I think that for smokers e-cigarettes could prove to be a game changer.
Again, the information necessary to determine if his results are truly relevant are missing. What vaporizer was he using? How much power was applied to said vaporizer? What was the source of the e-liquid? Does he have a PG allergy? (which would also explain any inflammation) If that first image is of the article author, and the vaporizer used, then my following questions have already been answered.

Test results without test parameters are both useless and invalid. If he was using an Aspire Nautilus tank with 1.6ohm coils, any inflammation could be caused by either PG allergy or ceramic particles. If he's using chinese e-liquid, any inflammation could be caused by any number of chemicals typically found in the chinese e-liquids.... Now, if the first image in the article is the author and the vaporizer used, it is in fact an Aspire Nautilus, which is known to use ceramic fiber coils.....which again, would explain the inflammation. Coincidentally, that's one of the reasons that ceramic fiber wicks are no longer being used.

For test results to be valid, all test parameters are required to be provided. I could easily grab an RDA, some ceramic fiber wicking material and chinese e-liquid....vape it for 3-4 hours and post a "conclusion"..... The conclusion would be that I ended up in the hospital, near death from inhaling recycled engine coolant and massive amounts of ceramic fiber. Without providing the test parameters with the results, the results are completely meaningless and invalid.

Quote:
But the main health justification for e-cigarettes is that they can help those who are keen to quit smoking tobacco, quit. So do they?

There have been very few randomized controlled trials, but the ones that have been done suggest it does.
This has actually been proven.....and the reason that Njoy e-cigs were approved by the US FDA as a nicotine cessation product. But, just like every other product, results will vary by person.

A nice bit of lying at the end of the article....

Quote:
Anything which gets people off cigarettes is going to save a lot of lives.
Death gets people off cigarettes....but doesn't save lives. Cocaine, heroine, meth amphetamines.....they work well for getting people off cigarettes, but don't save lives.



Last edited by sykozis; 01-17-2017 at 12:01.
   
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Default 01-17-2017, 12:35 | posts: 1,122 | Location: Bulgaria

Quote:
Originally Posted by sykozis View Post
From your article...
... Cocaine, heroine, meth amphetamines.....they work well for getting people off cigarettes, but don't save lives.
In my experience, people tend to smoke cigarettes quite a lot more when high on those .. just saying ..
   
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sykozis
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Default 01-17-2017, 13:07 | posts: 19,966 | Location: US East Coast

Quote:
Originally Posted by drandiiski View Post
In my experience, people tend to smoke cigarettes quite a lot more when high on those .. just saying ..
I was just trying to make a point that not everything that gets people to quit smoking cigarettes is going to save lives...


   
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AsiJu
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Default 01-17-2017, 13:15 | posts: 3,562 | Location: Finland

@sykozis

Exactly (what you wrote above).

Test results, like any statistics, can be used to show basically any outcome if the data/variables/conditions/frame of reference are not shown.

Scientific method implies there's a clearly defined research question (Is vaping dangerous? Is not a research question...), determined variables and constants, fixed conditions and clearly mapped results.

Furthermore, results are raw data which show the outcome of the examination/test. Without bias or conclusion.

Then there may be a separate conclusion but even that should refrain from taking stand like "this is clearly bad for you" but rather explain the results part in "common English".

Last but not least, the test should be repeatable and give consistent results. If either of these is not determinable from reading the test report, the test is to be considered invalid.

And ofc in real life scenarios things like who funded the study/test always comes into play...

Last edited by AsiJu; 01-17-2017 at 13:24.
   
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Ghosty
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Default 01-17-2017, 13:41 | posts: 4,876

Quote:
Originally Posted by AsiJu View Post
@sykozis
And ofc in real life scenarios things like who funded the study/test always comes into play...
That's another good point. Don't forget that the major tobacco companies have funded a lot of their own 'research' in to the benefits of vaping compared to regular smoking. As well as producing the various vape brands themselves.
   
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sykozis
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Default 01-17-2017, 14:55 | posts: 19,966 | Location: US East Coast

When testing vaping products for safety and reporting a conclusion based on said testing, we need to know the vaporizer(s) used, the chemical makeup of the e-liquid, the wicking material(s) used, the power range(s) used, the nicotine level (which should be zero, if looking at the safety of vaping in general), and the frequency in which vaping was done.

That said, vaping is not something that should be marketed to everyone. It should be marketed to those looking to quit smoking. It should be done in moderation, with the intent to cease use once the desired goal is reached. It shouldn't be done simply as a lifestyle choice. Is it 100% safe? Hell no. Is it safer than cigarettes? Yes. Should it be done long-term? Not if you value your overall health. Does further study need to be done? Yes, but only under the conditions that all variables are made public knowledge...including who funds the studies. We need unbiased, fact based studies and results. Does there need to be some sort of regulation? Of course. We need to make sure that proven unsafe chemicals are not used in manufacturing. There is enough risk when using PG, VG, Nicotine and flavoring already. Unfortunately, the US FDA is still relying on studies conducted by "big tobacco" to justify trying to regulate the vaping industry out of existence and eliminating hundreds of thousands of jobs in the process.


   
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Default 01-17-2017, 15:22 | posts: 4,876

Speaking of vaping. I saw this trending on my phone before. Exploding E-cig.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/262858...ette-exploded/

   
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sykozis
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Default 01-17-2017, 15:35 | posts: 19,966 | Location: US East Coast

When used properly, it's rare that one explodes. Usually when you see reports about one exploding, it's either due to a faulty battery or somebody being stupid.


   
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Stormyandcold
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Default 01-17-2017, 16:03 | posts: 4,775 | Location: Wolverhampton, UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
BBC Horizon did a program on vaping last year asking the same questions about how safe was it. Towards the end they start their own tests to see the short term effects. What they found was that increased inflammation in the lungs, which became less and less once the person stopped vaping.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-36338280

The key word they is 'relatively safe'. We won't know for another 20 or so year to see the lasting long term damage. Perhaps vaping is safe, well safer than smoking, but then again almost anything is.
Everything you've posted is in-line with my personal experience.

I would like to see if people who vape who also use mouthwash like Listerine experience losing their tastebuds.
   
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sykozis
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Default 01-17-2017, 17:35 | posts: 19,966 | Location: US East Coast

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormyandcold View Post
Everything you've posted is in-line with my personal experience.

I would like to see if people who vape who also use mouthwash like Listerine experience losing their tastebuds.
The only time I've experienced any negative effects at all, was when using chinese e-liquids (because a large portion of them are produced using recycled engine coolant as the chemical base) or vaporizers with ceramic fiber wicking material.

I use mouthwash daily and have had no loss of taste. I've been vaping for 2 years.


   
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AsiJu
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Default 01-18-2017, 07:59 | posts: 3,562 | Location: Finland

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghosty View Post
That's another good point. Don't forget that the major tobacco companies have funded a lot of their own 'research' in to the benefits of vaping compared to regular smoking. As well as producing the various vape brands themselves.
Hmm, so it seems:

http://www.bat.com/ecigarettes

the conspiracy theorist in me wants to say it's the e-cigs made By tobacco companies that explode so people would keep smoking (surely that's more profit per investment).

Then again, company behemoths like BAT can afford to invest in / enter virtually any market.
Make both smokes and e-cigs, win-win.
   
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Default 01-18-2017, 08:32 | posts: 2,245 | Location: UK

Smoking and smokers are dying out.

If you were to ask a teenager what would happen if they were to smoke, they would reply that by doing so would be like "committing social suicide". No friends and the red letter on them for life.

Honestly, no one (in my country) smokes any more. I honestly think I was one of the last.

It's just too stupid a thing to do.
   
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Corrupt^
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Default 01-18-2017, 09:49 | posts: 6,597 | Location: Belgium

It is somewhat part of an older generation indeed.

I also get the impression a lot of non smokers react positively to people switching from regular smoking to vaping. More often then not they mention the smell smokers usually have.
   
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Default 01-18-2017, 10:36 | posts: 45

I still smoke cigarettes but I'm down to 1 or 2 a day... Vaping seems to me a whole new can of worms, and people are just replacing one addiction with another.

Probably best to man up, make a decision and quit altogether... save money for better hardware or something
   
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drandiiski
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Default 01-20-2017, 08:14 | posts: 1,122 | Location: Bulgaria



So.. I went shopping ..
   
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Default 01-20-2017, 09:03 | posts: 1,926 | Location: Oxford UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by drandiiski View Post
So.. I went shopping ..
Those Dinner Lady juices are supposed to be really nice but custards etc. aren't really my thing.
   
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eclap
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Default 01-20-2017, 10:05 | posts: 31,511 | Location: Hampshire, UK

Pudding is quite nice indeed.
   
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drandiiski
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Default 01-20-2017, 10:28 | posts: 1,122 | Location: Bulgaria

BTW Pudding is from The Milkman and the Dinner Lady is Lemon Tart. Just saying, because it looks like the box and the bottle are the same package on that picture. Both of them are really nice. Iím leaning toward the Lemon Tart at the moment.
   
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eclap
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Default 01-20-2017, 10:34 | posts: 31,511 | Location: Hampshire, UK

Yep, I have both, The Dinner lady lemon tart is quite a bit harsher, more lemon-y, it hits the throat a little bit more. Milkman Pudding is a lot more mellow, easy vape. Both really nice though.

My absolute favorite dessert vape is Menage A Trois from Ruthless, love that thing.
   
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Default 01-20-2017, 13:22 | posts: 239 | Location: Redland Bay Australia

I have recently given up the smokes (hopefully for the last time!). Cold turkey, haven't smoked now for 7 weeks. Getting easier. Think that really made me quit is the fact that one of my mates (who is only 66) needs to be on oxygen 24/7.

I'm 34 and I don't want to have to go through what he's going through. To everyone who is trying to give up - don't give in, you have the rest of your life ahead of you.
   
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Stormyandcold
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Default 01-20-2017, 14:33 | posts: 4,775 | Location: Wolverhampton, UK

It's a good thing we're talking about vaping flavours here lol.

Anyway, I've tried to quit twice this month already. RL keeps triggering me to smoke again atm. Gonna keep trying.
   
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Default 01-20-2017, 14:35 | posts: 2,014 | Location: BBQ Capital of the World

Not quite the same, but I've given up drinking since may 1st. It was pretty hard in the beginning but just holding something in my hand when going out helped immensely. Otherwise just going to group meetings and keeping my mind busy was also a key.
   
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