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Tom F
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Default 01-06-2013, 22:45 | posts: 2,820 | Location: Gloucesterestershire

Thing is though, the DAC doesn't have any memory, buffering or anything like that - that's why it happens on the PC. The DAC only knows if there's data there - it doesn't care how (or even when). As long as it's there when the clock comes up...you're all good

Jitter is of course a concern, but this is again a function of the hardware, not the software. A properly designed clock on the DAC with properly separated analog and digital power supplies should have no trouble from the EMC from the PC / neighbouring devices. You're in serious trouble if noise from your USB is affecting your supplies - no media player will get you out of that hole!
   
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Mufflore
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Default 01-06-2013, 22:53 | posts: 10,114 | Location: United states of Kingdom

The DAC or its supporting circuits do have a memory buffer otherwise they would only ever be able to accept bitstream and there would be no multibit DACs.

The hardware isnt static in its operation, it is constantly varying, how it operates is of concern as it affects EM noise and signal/voltage rail noise.
Software (and some hardware control) determines this in a programmable environment.
   
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Mufflore
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Default 01-07-2013, 05:57 | posts: 10,114 | Location: United states of Kingdom

I've spent the last hour testing to see if a slightly more stable power supply helps on just the hard drive.
By simply plugging capacitors on/off the hard drives power rails and comparing the difference!
(PSU is an old Hiper 630W)

Please dont do this yourself unless you are extremely careful.
This is on my spare PC, I recommend you do any testing like this on an old machine.

I found some old 16V electrolytics, 2200uF and 470uF.
2200uF on the 5V and 470uF on the 12V.
The power lead to the hard drive has 2 SATA power connectors on it, the drive is plugged onto the second one on the end.
The first power connector is how I connected the caps by inserting the leads into the back of the connector, alongside where the power lines enter, so the leads touch the power connectors firmly.

On first power up, the PC tried to finish POST and then rebooted.
This time it worked fine booting straight into Windows, it was the caps charging up that upset it a bit first time.
From then on, the caps were charged at least partially, I took care not to short the leads or accidentally touch them against anything else.
Unplugging them and plugging them in again didnt cause any upset to the PC.
They are a bit of a pig to insert into the back of the connector (especially safely) so used a bright torch pointing at the connector to make it easier to see.

My test piece is the start of Dire Straits - Sultans of Swing FLAC, ripped from CD.
The net effect is the sound is slightly crisper and clearer on treble.
You can hear the percussion of the guitar strings being struck a little clearer.
As well as hearing the plucks a little clearer, it sounded a tiny bit more open as well.

I didnt believe I would be able to tell the difference, but there you are.
Its quite a small difference, but the effect is very nice such that I couldnt wait to plug the caps back in to get it back, it adds a bit of delight
I just pity my poor PSU lol.


Things worth knowing:
I'm using a very good Sabre32 DAC (EE Minimax Plus) with a very revealing amp (Emotiva XPA-2), the speakers have ribbon tweeters and are slightly too bright because the amp is connected with silver interconnects soldered directly inside the amp.
This may be why I can hear such a small change.
But these things are sure to add up, this was a test to see just how much effect can be gained and if its worth pursuing.
It is.

But I dont know what will happen to my PSU if I put extra capacitors all over it.
I dont mind killing this one as I intend on buying a very low ripple model anyway.
I plan to use some better caps and use tantalum beads in parallel for higher freq noise removal.
I'll put a scope on the rails to see just how much these help, gotta buy some leads for it first though.

This saves using an addon regulator board, but undoubtedly wont be as good, but does it need to be?
Its damn cheap and pretty easy!



If anyone is after a really really stable supply, I found this:
http://www.teddypardo.com/DIY/SuperTeddyReg.html
3V to 35V, 2A.
According to this page http://www.teddypardo.com/products/p...-Detailed.html
It has ripple rejection of 120dB to over 1MHz !!

This can power an SSD, hard drive, DAC or low power PC, but only provides one voltage rail per board.


Edit
Just played the same track on my main PC and its slightly clearer without any caps plugged in the PSU, doh!
Most likely the Corsair AX750 PSU makes a large contribution.

Its really quick and easy to test between 2 PCs if you have an external DAC.
Leave the focus on JPlay on each machine with the song to play in the paste buffer.
You dont need to see the screen, just plug in the DAC, hit space (on the right keyboard!) to start playing.
Plug the DAC in the same port used previously to avoid issues.

Last edited by Mufflore; 01-07-2013 at 06:44.
   
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  (#79)
Mufflore
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Default 01-08-2013, 03:38 | posts: 10,114 | Location: United states of Kingdom

This thread on the JPlay forum is gold.
http://jplay.eu/forum/computer-audio...ated-audio-pc/
Its full of experiments with hardware and software to see what makes for the best PC.
Some of the hardware tried is mad expensive, others are run of the mill things you can buy from a store.

It took me a while to realise that the main contributor is one of the writers of JPlay.
Hes very well versed, as are some of the other contributors.
Its wise to read it through to the end and make notes, there is so much useful information.

Much of the information I have posted has come from this thread, so props go to Marcin, JPlay dev.
   
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  (#80)
Mufflore
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Default 01-08-2013, 04:09 | posts: 10,114 | Location: United states of Kingdom

Quote:
Originally Posted by ASLayerAODsk View Post
Ok...reading.
Cool
Sorry I bit your head off, I'd been reading so much and was v tired.
Have you had chance to experiment?
   
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  (#81)
ROBSCIX
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Default 01-08-2013, 15:58 | posts: 16,236 | Location: Guru3D Audio Lab

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mufflore View Post
This thread on the JPlay forum is gold.
With any gold, it is only of use if you know how to identify and extract the useful material from the useless. I read through and there is a alot of good information, but there is also a great deal of paranoia and snakeoil.
   
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  (#82)
ASLayerAODsk
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Default 01-08-2013, 19:28 | posts: 762 | Location: Canada

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mufflore View Post
Cool
Sorry I bit your head off, I'd been reading so much and was v tired.
Have you had chance to experiment?
bit my head off? nah...ive had worse from better

I have been...and there is a difference..but im still not quite convinced...even with my hardware...i question it....part of my nature..as you can clearly see in my post
   
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jplay sound quality
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  (#83)
AudioPhilip
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Default jplay sound quality - 01-08-2013, 19:38 | posts: 4 | Location: Italy

Hello I registered myself because I am a Classe' owner and I use jplay since more than one year...operating system is Windows 8 installed on external ssd battery powered, my audio setup is the following: Arcam d33 dac, Wireworld starlight silver usb cable, pre Classe' Six, power amp Classe' 175-A, speakers Martin Logan Sequel 2, sub Velodyne dd 18, signal cables Audioquest Cheetha balanced, Kimber 8tc + 4tc for biwiring and Kimber Palladian power cables for amp and sub. IMHO jplay,on a dedicated Windows installation, is giving me the sound quality I always dreamed to hear....much better than any cd or sacd (my player was Marantz sa11 s1 soon for sale on ebay). If you want to know more I will be glad to answer even in my poor english.Greetings from Italy
   
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AudioPhilip
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Default 01-08-2013, 19:51 | posts: 4 | Location: Italy

Sorry this wanted to be a reply to ASLayer AODsk 01.06.2013 18:52 but I'm not used to write on forums and made some mistake posting...
   
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ROBSCIX
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Default 01-08-2013, 19:58 | posts: 16,236 | Location: Guru3D Audio Lab

Sounds like a very involved system you have there. Have you done any mods that are mentioned in that thread?
   
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AudioPhilip
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Default 01-08-2013, 20:16 | posts: 4 | Location: Italy

As they suggest on Jplay forum, I use a dedicated Windows 8 to go installation, no internet,antivirus, I use Total Commander and Fidelizer, only eleven processes left when I play music...someone on forum has only five processes left...
   
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  (#87)
ASLayerAODsk
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Default 01-08-2013, 22:59 | posts: 762 | Location: Canada

wow...thats quite the system...*a tad jealous*

especially the Kimber 8tc....

Last edited by ASLayerAODsk; 01-08-2013 at 23:03.
   
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  (#88)
RagDoll_Effect
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Default 01-08-2013, 23:14 | posts: 4,509 | Location: Australia

Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioPhilip View Post
Hello I registered myself because I am a Classe' owner and I use jplay since more than one year...operating system is Windows 8 installed on external ssd battery powered, my audio setup is the following: Arcam d33 dac, Wireworld starlight silver usb cable, pre Classe' Six, power amp Classe' 175-A, speakers Martin Logan Sequel 2, sub Velodyne dd 18, signal cables Audioquest Cheetha balanced, Kimber 8tc + 4tc for biwiring and Kimber Palladian power cables for amp and sub. IMHO jplay,on a dedicated Windows installation, is giving me the sound quality I always dreamed to hear....much better than any cd or sacd (my player was Marantz sa11 s1 soon for sale on ebay). If you want to know more I will be glad to answer even in my poor english.Greetings from Italy
Welcome to Guru3D I'm from Australia and that is an awesome system you've got there... To get the best sound, just send it to me, just joking
That DAC would have awesome sound and how low does that Velodyne sub go?

regards,
RagDoll.
   
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  (#89)
AudioPhilip
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Default 01-09-2013, 18:33 | posts: 4 | Location: Italy

Thanks...it took me more than 20 years to build my audio chain, spending money when I could. About Arcam d33 I like it very much, be warned that it needs a long burning in (two or three weeks) before giving its best. Velodyne dd18 is a real monster sub, I've decided to buy it to turn my logans into a kind of jbl monitor...it works. The frequency response goes below 15 Hz , with the Jplay 5 release candidate number 3 it became simply stunning you should hear the kick drum so tight and fast...even if my listening room is not very big. If someone
told me some years ago that I could use a pc as high end source surely I would not believe it.
   
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ROBSCIX
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Default 01-09-2013, 18:41 | posts: 16,236 | Location: Guru3D Audio Lab

I seem to change my system too often....It is the best part and worst part of being a reviewer!
   
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ASLayerAODsk
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Default 01-12-2013, 02:58 | posts: 762 | Location: Canada

well Ive been researching for a few days straight now at every opportunity..and honestly...if i had to go with popular opinion, its that Jplay is the new 'Bose' of software...take that how you will..but I tried to stay away from the 'official' forums myself as thats just feeding at the programmed trough...so...im trying to keep it as neutral as possible...giving it a chance, while leaving my mind/ears open to the idea of scrutiny too...Im just not sold....my pc system is quite overkill on many levels..even running 4ohms as well.....and adding a power conditioner in the next month or so....with decently shielded cables and interconnects...really...Im still not sold its just not an EQ 'fix' for $150....ive been searching forum after forum about it....listening as well....with/without jplay on...I'm still just not convinced...you can see my audio hardware listed there in my profile thing, so thats kinda where I sit for now....kinda on the fence...kinda not....
   
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Mufflore
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Default 01-12-2013, 03:16 | posts: 10,114 | Location: United states of Kingdom

I love it, makes a big difference on Win 7 for me, running an external Sabre32 Reference DAC connected to the amp with home made silver wire interconnects (soldered one end into the amp).
Its worth trying a good silver interconnect, it made a big difference!

I was thinking earlier that I should install Win 8 to see how it sounds (didnt check that when I ran the beta) and if JPlay improves on it much.

On Win 7, JPlay sounds so bl**dy awesome, clearer, everything placed so precisely and detail I've never come across, tons of microdetail.
Currently listening to Extreme Pornograffiti

ps nice kit
   
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  (#93)
ASLayerAODsk
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Default 01-12-2013, 04:20 | posts: 762 | Location: Canada

I was just pricing out 805D's tonight a bit...maybe next years purchase I have to get my Martin Logan Aerius I's out of storage here in the next few months...I miss them quite badly
   
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Mufflore
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Default 01-12-2013, 05:13 | posts: 10,114 | Location: United states of Kingdom

I'm interested to know why you would be looking at getting other speakers when you have a sweet set of electrostats sat in a cupboard !

What DAC and amp are you using with your 610s?
   
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Mufflore
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Default 01-12-2013, 05:48 | posts: 10,114 | Location: United states of Kingdom

Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioPhilip View Post
Hello I registered myself because I am a Classe' owner and I use jplay since more than one year...operating system is Windows 8 installed on external ssd battery powered, my audio setup is the following: Arcam d33 dac, Wireworld starlight silver usb cable, pre Classe' Six, power amp Classe' 175-A, speakers Martin Logan Sequel 2, sub Velodyne dd 18, signal cables Audioquest Cheetha balanced, Kimber 8tc + 4tc for biwiring and Kimber Palladian power cables for amp and sub. IMHO jplay,on a dedicated Windows installation, is giving me the sound quality I always dreamed to hear....much better than any cd or sacd (my player was Marantz sa11 s1 soon for sale on ebay). If you want to know more I will be glad to answer even in my poor english.Greetings from Italy
Thats quite some system!
Its a shame you are so far away, I'd like to hear it.

If you get a chance to try the Oppo 105 SACD/Blu Ray player (Sabre32 ref DAC), I'm interested to know how it compares to your DAC.
I was surprised by it, really refined with intricate delicate detail.

I preferred it to my Minimax Plus DAC playing from PC, but that was before JPlay, gotta do that comparison again now
An opamp replacement in my DAC might help, they are socketed for easy changing, although that busts the warranty.
Looking at the NewClassDs, they are regarded well.
http://www.newclassd.com/index.php?page=55

Welcome to the forum
   
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  (#96)
ASLayerAODsk
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Default 01-12-2013, 07:28 | posts: 762 | Location: Canada

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mufflore View Post
I'm interested to know why you would be looking at getting other speakers when you have a sweet set of electrostats sat in a cupboard !

What DAC and amp are you using with your 610s?
You can never have enough and high end enough speakers
and I just have a NAD 7120 to my Essence STX non-optical.

For my ML's I have an Anthem MCA 2 and an older Denon 1801. It's been in storage for a while..
   
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ROBSCIX
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Default 01-12-2013, 17:29 | posts: 16,236 | Location: Guru3D Audio Lab

Quote:
Originally Posted by ASLayerAODsk View Post
well Ive been researching for a few days straight now at every opportunity..and honestly...if i had to go with popular opinion, its that Jplay is the new 'Bose' of software...take that how you will..but I tried to stay away from the 'official' forums myself as thats just feeding at the programmed trough...so...im trying to keep it as neutral as possible...giving it a chance, while leaving my mind/ears open to the idea of scrutiny too...Im just not sold....my pc system is quite overkill on many levels..even running 4ohms as well.....and adding a power conditioner in the next month or so....with decently shielded cables and interconnects...really...Im still not sold its just not an EQ 'fix' for $150....ive been searching forum after forum about it....listening as well....with/without jplay on...I'm still just not convinced...you can see my audio hardware listed there in my profile thing, so thats kinda where I sit for now....kinda on the fence...kinda not....
Well, Everybody has to make their own opinions. It is not just EQ...not even close. I experiment with all kinds of stuff both HW and SW, some stuff I adopt and some I throw away. We all have to make that call on our own.

Last edited by ROBSCIX; 01-12-2013 at 17:36.
   
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  (#98)
ASLayerAODsk
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Default 01-12-2013, 18:59 | posts: 762 | Location: Canada

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBSCIX View Post
Well, Everybody has to make their own opinions. It is not just EQ...not even close. I experiment with all kinds of stuff both HW and SW, some stuff I adopt and some I throw away. We all have to make that call on our own.
Well in your opinion then, what would make this 'feat' so accomplishable now? and how? thats really my largest boggle about this whole thing...and if its so GREAT..why only $150CDN? If they can accomplish what Krell charges $100,000 to do with several pieces of hardware...it just doesnt make sense...at all.
   
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ROBSCIX
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Default 01-12-2013, 19:30 | posts: 16,236 | Location: Guru3D Audio Lab

Quote:
Originally Posted by ASLayerAODsk View Post
Well in your opinion then, what would make this 'feat' so accomplishable now? and how? thats really my largest boggle about this whole thing...and if its so GREAT..why only $150CDN? If they can accomplish what Krell charges $100,000 to do with several pieces of hardware...it just doesnt make sense...at all.
I would say ask Mufllore as he has been putting in more time doing research on it. $150 for an output plugin for a player is anything but cheap!
If you are interested in the exact details of what is going on, check the forums and talk to the guy that wrote it.
Tha app and other like it have been out for quite awhile so it didn't just pop up. Mem style players are few but they are out there.
   
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Mufflore
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Default 01-12-2013, 19:36 | posts: 10,114 | Location: United states of Kingdom

They cant achieve what Krell do with software only, the hardware has to be of a very high standard too.
While JPlay does sound better, it isnt up to the standard of a high end player, not by a long shot.
You need to tweak the hardware to maddening extremes AND limit interference from processing.
Even then, a PC may never be able to achieve what Krell have unless you morph it into something completely unrecognisable that will probably take 10x the space.
It still might not make the grade.

In post #46, I explained the need for JPlay and hardware tweaking if you want to get the best from your "PC".
In post #79, there is a link to the hardware tweaks that have been tried by one of JPlays devs and other guys that joined in, if you want to know how involved it is.
They are still researching.

JPlay tones down basic issues and some complex ones that a PC has.
Its only a part of the puzzle.
   
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