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Mufflore
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Default 01-05-2013, 17:13 | posts: 10,244 | Location: United states of Kingdom

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBSCIX View Post
@Muff, for the PSU, there is many caps on all the lines, there are also many caps in the connected devices. This is where the debates starts to come into play.
Example, people say the inside of a PC is noisy, power PSU is noisy, it could be sure depending on a few things. If we hook up say, a ASUS STX and measure it, the card provides better noise measurements then many external devices. So where is the noise?
Some have been saying SATA filters are a good idea but I am not sure how much stock I put into them.

I guess making a more precise system could only be good for audio.
I mentioned 2 advantages

1) you can use different value caps and types of caps (in parallel) that will respond better to the frequencies and harmonics that are common on the cable, either generated by the PSU, by the connected devices or from EMI.
2) by placing the caps closer to each device, they will provide better isolation of each device from each other. This removes power line noise at source generated by connected devices (or a fair amount of it).

Another is it puts a better buffer between the PSU and each device so the PSUs noise isnt as strong.

This is above what manufacturers have included in their products.
It may be unecessary to do it for every device, it may make little difference to group some devices onto the same power point, as long as their is enough isolation where it matters.


SATA filters are more acclaimed than the USB to DAC filter from what I've read so far!

Last edited by Mufflore; 01-05-2013 at 17:18.
   
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ROBSCIX
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Default 01-05-2013, 17:25 | posts: 16,236 | Location: Guru3D Audio Lab

My background is in electronics and engineering. I understand the intricacies of filtering components. I think I am going to start adding filter caps to my opamps I build for myself also. The thing we have to keep in mind is much of this stuff would only start to be of affect when other aspects have been taken care of.

Maybe I should use my contacts to try and build a high end 100% audiophile music system?
I already have quite a few parts. What do you think as it might make a great article?

I wonder how high end it should be though, I want people to read it and get ideas not look at it as something they can never do or own.
Have to be very careful with the price to performance here.

Last edited by ROBSCIX; 01-05-2013 at 17:29.
   
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Default 01-05-2013, 17:31 | posts: 4,509 | Location: Australia

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBSCIX View Post
Maybe I should use my contacts to try and build a high end 100% audiophile music system?
I already have quite a few parts. What do you think as it might make a great article?
If you're gonna do that, which I think is awesome, please use the Auzen HD Hometheatre card and get some Bic America speakers to go with it Or, if you're gonna go really high end, some Polks, or DT's

regards,
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ROBSCIX
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Default 01-05-2013, 17:36 | posts: 16,236 | Location: Guru3D Audio Lab

Funny you mention it as that is the card I was planning on using. However, I was also planning on putting a DAC with it also.
I think, I want to try and keep things as generic as possible. More as a how to, to tune your system...maybe I don't know. Just some ideas right now.
   
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Mufflore
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Default 01-05-2013, 17:41 | posts: 10,244 | Location: United states of Kingdom

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBSCIX View Post
My background is in electronics and engineering. I understand the intricacies of filtering components. I think I am going to start adding filter caps to my opamps I build for myself also.
Yeah that has become quite obvious
I think you will have a fair amount more experience than I have, after studying my contracts have been varied between electronics and computing with more going to computing.

Quote:
The thing we have to keep in mind is much of this stuff would only start to be of affect when other aspects have been taken care of.
Agreed, was going to say the same, but then got distracted by thoughts of how much they claim isolating SATA devices helped.

Quote:
Maybe I should use my contacts to try and build a high end 100% audiophile music system?
I already have quite a few parts. What do you think as it might make a great article?
I'd love it, super idea.

I have a spare PC that fits the bill quite well (quad core, Intel, no iGPU, large motherboard with components spread out - all positive criteria I have read).
It has an old PSU that I wouldnt choose for this project though.
But even cheap upgrades will have to wait until February or March probably as I'm skint.
Theres an old uncalibrated scope poking out of a cupboard that might be useful still, needs some leads.
   
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ROBSCIX
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Default 01-05-2013, 17:48 | posts: 16,236 | Location: Guru3D Audio Lab

I already have been working on such a device
Totally quiet, no moving parts to start with.
Now, just think of some optimizations to throw in the mix.
I am hoping I can add Jplay to the software system.
   
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Default 01-05-2013, 17:51 | posts: 4,509 | Location: Australia

I studied computers, but there was a few parts of the course that focused on electronics. However, I'm more of a teach myself type and most of what I know is self taught, even learning alot here on G3D I did this project a while ago, built my custom machine. I worked at 2 companies specializing in building and repairing PC's, so building my PC wasn't that difficult, just the CPU fan was a bit of a challenge. It's a high end HSF, and as you probably know, the 3rd party ones that aren't intel are all different... lol I made sure I got a PSU that was both powerful and quiet, which it is. Also, made sure the mobo was grounded. This is a big thing if you want the cpu and other components to work well, without shorting You probably know all this, but Rob, if I can be of assistance or anything, just pm me and I will help

best of luck with it,
RagDoll.

Last edited by RagDoll_Effect; 01-05-2013 at 17:54.
   
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Default 01-05-2013, 17:55 | posts: 16,236 | Location: Guru3D Audio Lab

Well as many of you may know if you have any interest in electronics is on paper, it is very precise however, in the real world electronics is very imprecise and tolerance ridden.
It is all about what component does the job with some very laxed tolerances sometimes.
This may be where people are hearing improvements by helping to isolate and improve on the tolerances of some components. That I can understand but some things would also just be paranoia or snakeoil.
   
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Default 01-05-2013, 17:56 | posts: 4,509 | Location: Australia

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBSCIX View Post
Well as many of you may know if you have any interest in electronics is on paper, it is very precise however, in the real world electronics is very imprecise and tolerance ridden.
It is all about what component does the job with some very laxed tolerances sometimes.
This may be where people are hearing improvements by helping to isolate and improve on the tolerances of some components. That I can understand but some things would also just be paranoia or snakeoil.
agree 100%
   
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Default 01-05-2013, 19:08 | posts: 212 | Location: Ghent, Belgium

How about you add a few minor DIY mods into it?
Low cost, high effect, improving the efficiency of existing components would be very popular, since everybody would be able to use it.

A bit like SilentPCReview did with silencing a PC.
   
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Default 01-06-2013, 16:23 | posts: 764 | Location: Canada

sheeit....Im really liking this Jplay....wow....um....Im hearing my high's 'disappearing' unlike Ive ever heard before..and now im wondering if its my hearing..or my tweeters...damn..now I want some diamond tweeter so then I'd know... sheeit batman!



edit : $160 CDN!?!?! um...wow....I was thinking more along the $50 kinda range....not sure about this now.....hmm....

aww hell..I already know im going to buy it...grr. lulz!


or maybe its the software....never had that happen before...so...its possible..in theory...not sure how that would work..but....

..and until I truly understand this software..I recant this statement about definitely purchasing it. I wont delete it, but I will recant it.

Last edited by ASLayerAODsk; 01-06-2013 at 18:57.
   
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ROBSCIX
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Default 01-06-2013, 16:28 | posts: 16,236 | Location: Guru3D Audio Lab

Yeah, it is pretty slick.

Do you mean the sound is more resolving?

Last edited by ROBSCIX; 01-06-2013 at 16:51.
   
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ASLayerAODsk
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Default 01-06-2013, 17:52 | posts: 764 | Location: Canada

im still trying to figure it out...Id hate to find that its nothing but EQ effects...which is entirely possible..cause Im sure if i played around enough with a few settings, i might even be able to mildly replicate the idea...thats why I prefer vanilla hardware...very few settings...so then I know what Im getting...I dont like hardware with 30000 settings and whatnot, turn on and go, thats how I prefer it.

and it wouldnt be the first time a company has lied to make a sale...so...call me cautious. Esp for something that I can never touch, or hold in my hand.

My first question is, if this was possible all along, why is it just 'appearing' now?

A few things about the front page of Jplay...

their links on the right...DirectLink lowest latency? umm...just play with your timer...that should fix it if its not fast enough for you on default and/or your hardware isnt fast enough...go buy faster stuff.

LPMemory - also addressable in the registry.

Jplay as a Windows service, are they serious?? oooo! so worthwhile *sarcasm*

Maximum system timer - how many free ones are out there that 'work'? I mean...I have 3...and really...you want to really speed your system up? put your OS on an SSD and nothing else. voila. system timers seemingly become irrelevant at that point.

64bit support - ok..its 2013....who here CANT utilize 64bit now? im sure its a minority almost? Id hope anyway....

High resolution...well...im glad they say 'no' to lossy formats..but theres still nothing in this list thats enough to convince me....and the testimonials...well...get me someone in Krell/Classe to testify to it...and then Ill see....cause right now..im still not sold that it isnt just some EQ workings....and for $160...I can spend an hour doing that myself....

So far....the front page...well....is lackluster for someone seeking real information.....

also..anything that uses the 'audiophile' term for selling..usually isnt quite what they seem....in my own experience. Kinda like that company that has all highs no lows...*wink wink nudge nudge*

and how does low latency? multicore performance? and no disk activity during playback HELP audio quality? seriously....

and if its 'so good' as they claim...why would they ever need updates? Esp if its based on software? Considering W7 is apparently never getting another SP...foobar2000, well....not sure what they have changed in a while..but anyways....

who's to say they aren't the 'new' 'all highs, no lows' of software?

Last edited by ASLayerAODsk; 01-06-2013 at 19:08.
   
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Mufflore
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Default 01-06-2013, 19:47 | posts: 10,244 | Location: United states of Kingdom

Quote:
Originally Posted by RagDoll_Effect View Post
Yeah, I know, I mean the electronics of it and the main thing I want to know is the difference between DVD audio and SACD's?

thanks,
RagDoll.
I'm stuck what it is you want to know, MLP is a lossless way of compressing PCM.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meridian_Lossless_Packing
Much like FLAC is a lossless way of compressing WAV.
   
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Default 01-06-2013, 19:55 | posts: 4,509 | Location: Australia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mufflore View Post
I'm stuck what it is you want to know, MLP is a lossless way of compressing PCM.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meridian_Lossless_Packing
Much like FLAC is a lossless way of compressing WAV.
Yes, but which has better sound, DVD Audio, or SACD? We could say that they have the same sound quality if they're both the same 24 bit 96khz, however this isn't really an exact science if you know what I mean... Like what you were saying about cda and flac, cos I agree, and even on my player, cd's sound better too.

regards,
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Mufflore
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Default 01-06-2013, 20:24 | posts: 10,244 | Location: United states of Kingdom

Quote:
Originally Posted by ASLayerAODsk View Post
im still trying to figure it out...Id hate to find that its nothing but EQ effects...which is entirely possible..cause Im sure if i played around enough with a few settings, i might even be able to mildly replicate the idea...thats why I prefer vanilla hardware...very few settings...so then I know what Im getting...I dont like hardware with 30000 settings and whatnot, turn on and go, thats how I prefer it.
It is down to reducing interference to the clock on the DAC.
Human hearing is so very sensitive and clock timings are analogue so will vary.
We can hear many clock timing errors.

Quote:
My first question is, if this was possible all along, why is it just 'appearing' now?
Someone decided to write it to improve quality for themselves and then published it.

Quote:
A few things about the front page of Jplay...

their links on the right...DirectLink lowest latency? umm...just play with your timer...that should fix it if its not fast enough for you on default and/or your hardware isnt fast enough...go buy faster stuff.
This is down to how much data gets sent in one go.
If you can get away with sending it 1 bit at a time you introduce less interference to the system which causes less noise to be sent to the DACs clock.
Perhaps this thread isnt for you, it will require you to research before blowing steam unnecessarily.

Quote:
Jplay as a Windows service, are they serious?? oooo! so worthwhile *sarcasm*
This allows JPlay to have access to memory that isnt as fragmented.
If you dont believe it can make a difference, fair enough, but theres no need to be childish, this is the high end audio thread where the weird and wonderful will be discussed.
We've been waiting for this for a long time, dont wreck it.

Quote:
Maximum system timer - how many free ones are out there that 'work'? I mean...I have 3...and really...you want to really speed your system up? put your OS on an SSD and nothing else. voila. system timers seemingly become irrelevant at that point.
You've missed the point again.
It reduces OS latency by allowing tasks to switch faster.

Quote:
64bit support - ok..its 2013....who here CANT utilize 64bit now? im sure its a minority almost? Id hope anyway....
So what?

Quote:
High resolution...well...im glad they say 'no' to lossy formats..but theres still nothing in this list thats enough to convince me....and the testimonials...well...get me someone in Krell/Classe to testify to it...and then Ill see....cause right now..im still not sold that it isnt just some EQ workings....and for $160...I can spend an hour doing that myself....
You dont have to buy it.
If you dont like it, then bow out.
If you do, please grow up and learn how it helps.

Quote:
So far....the front page...well....is lackluster for someone seeking real information.....
You're accusing them of not providing you with all the information you need on the front page when there are links to a lot of information and even more if you use Google.
What would make you happy?

Quote:
also..anything that uses the 'audiophile' term for selling..usually isnt quite what they seem....in my own experience. Kinda like that company that has all highs no lows...*wink wink nudge nudge*
If you dont appreciate it, dont use it.

Quote:
and how does low latency? multicore performance? and no disk activity during playback HELP audio quality? seriously....
Honestly, you are embarrassing yourself.

Quote:
and if its 'so good' as they claim...why would they ever need updates? Esp if its based on software? Considering W7 is apparently never getting another SP...foobar2000, well....not sure what they have changed in a while..but anyways....
Where did they say that they have achieved a perfect result?

Quote:
who's to say they aren't the 'new' 'all highs, no lows' of software?
Read my earlier posts, you will see how it helps.
It seems you want to understand it by reading a very small amount.
Maybe technical stuff isnt your thing.

If it was down to EQing, it would have been ripped apart by now.
Why dont you read up on it.
This is a good start
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/jplay/1.html
There are 2 pages, the 'next' link is a bit obscure.
   
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Mufflore
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Default 01-06-2013, 20:44 | posts: 10,244 | Location: United states of Kingdom

Quote:
Originally Posted by RagDoll_Effect View Post
Yes, but which has better sound, DVD Audio, or SACD? We could say that they have the same sound quality if they're both the same 24 bit 96khz, however this isn't really an exact science if you know what I mean... Like what you were saying about cda and flac, cos I agree, and even on my player, cd's sound better too.

regards,
RagDoll.

The encoding / transport method is more or less irrelevant (if good isolation from the decoding is used), many of the schemes were introduced for copy protection or to have their own standard that nobody else can use unless they forfeit lots of cash.
The all get converted to the same standard that can be passed into the DAC.

What matters more is how to reduce noise within the audio player.
Encoding schemes can have an effect when they are decoded (as demonstrated by the difference between playing a CD and FLAC or playing a WAV and FLAC), but not because of different data, the data can be the same.
As long as the noise from decoding the data is kept away from the DACs clock and power supply, all is good, but its harder to do in a PC as they are not designed to reduce this type of noise.
That doesnt mean that all external players are good, even high def players can sound poor due to excess noise getting to the DACs clock or Power supply.

No processing (ie no encoding) is best as it will produce less noise.
(but this can easily be ruined by simple errors or lack of attention elsewhere)
This is why JPlay decodes the audio and copies it into system ram first for direct sequential access, so there is a bit less interference generated by the system during playback.
   
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Default 01-06-2013, 20:48 | posts: 4,509 | Location: Australia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mufflore View Post
The encoding / transport method is more or less irrelevant (if good isolation from the decoding is used), many of the schemes were introduced for copy protection or to have their own standard that nobody else can use unless they forfeit lots of cash.
The all get converted to the same standard that can be passed into the DAC.

What matters more is how to reduce noise within the audio player.
Encoding schemes can have an effect when they are decoded (as demonstrated by the difference between playing a CD and FLAC or playing a WAV and FLAC), but not because of different data, the data can be the same.
As long as the noise from decoding the data is kept away from the DACs clock and power supply, all is good, but its harder to do in a PC as they are not designed to reduce this type of noise.
That doesnt mean that all external players are good, even high def players can sound poor due to excess noise getting to the DACs clock or Power supply.

No processing (ie no encoding) is best as it will produce less noise.
(but this can easily be ruined by simple errors or lack of attention elsewhere)
This is why JPlay decodes the audio and copies it into system ram first for direct sequential access, so there is a bit less interference generated by the system during playback.
Cool, thanks for that I'm with you on the Cd's sound better, sometimes even my CD's sound better than DVD audio, but I haven't tried SACD's yet. CD's seem louder and clearer on my player, I don't know how or why...

tanx,
RagDoll.
   
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ASLayerAODsk
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Default 01-06-2013, 21:25 | posts: 764 | Location: Canada

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mufflore View Post
It is down to reducing interference to the clock on the DAC.
Human hearing is so very sensitive and clock timings are analogue so will vary.
We can hear many clock timing errors.


Someone decided to write it to improve quality for themselves and then published it.


This is down to how much data gets sent in one go.
If you can get away with sending it 1 bit at a time you introduce less interference to the system which causes less noise to be sent to the DACs clock.
Perhaps this thread isnt for you, it will require you to research before blowing steam unnecessarily.


This allows JPlay to have access to memory that isnt as fragmented.
If you dont believe it can make a difference, fair enough, but theres no need to be childish, this is the high end audio thread where the weird and wonderful will be discussed.
We've been waiting for this for a long time, dont wreck it.


You've missed the point again.
It reduces OS latency by allowing tasks to switch faster.


So what?


You dont have to buy it.
If you dont like it, then bow out.
If you do, please grow up and learn how it helps.


You're accusing them of not providing you with all the information you need on the front page when there are links to a lot of information and even more if you use Google.
What would make you happy?


If you dont appreciate it, dont use it.


Honestly, you are embarrassing yourself.


Where did they say that they have achieved a perfect result?



Read my earlier posts, you will see how it helps.
It seems you want to understand it by reading a very small amount.
Maybe technical stuff isnt your thing.

If it was down to EQing, it would have been ripped apart by now.
Why dont you read up on it.
This is a good start
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/jplay/1.html
There are 2 pages, the 'next' link is a bit obscure.

Ok...reading.
   
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Default 01-06-2013, 21:26 | posts: 2,822 | Location: Gloucesterestershire

I haven't been following the JPlay discussion, but surely as long as you're not dropping frames during decoding / having an output buffer under run, the DAC doesn't see any difference?

Haven't tried it, I'll make sure I do when I get home.

Still not sure about the memory playback feature. Is this just to ensure that the output buffer is always full?
   
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Mufflore
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Default 01-06-2013, 21:36 | posts: 10,244 | Location: United states of Kingdom

I thought similar, but it seems our hearing is capable of a lot higher resolution regarding timing of data through the DAC.
It seems PCs are quite hostile to DACs even when galvanically isolated!
No doubt better noise reduction (and DACs) are why some external players stand out above others, this demonstrates the extremes that will help!
   
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Tom F
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Default 01-06-2013, 21:44 | posts: 2,822 | Location: Gloucesterestershire

True - but this stuff manages to work perfectly for our RAM / PCIe interfaces where much more data is transferred much faster (along long tracks next to noisy, power hungry devices in the case of a GPU!) for years on end (servers for example?) - I still don't quite get why this stuff works perfectly (and I mean perfectly) for everything else - yet there still appear to be differences?

Really, what we need to do is get a protocol analyser onto the data bus to the DAC chip. Then, we can see if it's getting the same data from JPlay and foobar.

I have a TotalPhase Beagle at work - I wonder if that decodes I2S?

A PC is undoubtedly a hostile environment - but that's all hardware. The software has no idea about what's going on in the outside world - if just processes the data somehow.
   
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Rebel975
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Default 01-06-2013, 21:45 | posts: 1,222 | Location: Idaho

My modest setup.




Eton S7's and a homemade TC Sounds Epic 12" sub. NU3000DSP for the sub and an Emotiva UPA-500 for the speakers. An Emotiva UMC-1 rounds out the kit.

The monitor in the picture is a HP Z2740w. Sorry about it being slightly crooked.


I currently have a 4.0 (expanded stereo) in the living room. It's (4x) Dayton RS621's powered by a piece of crap (relatively speaking) Pioneer VSX-921-K. Well, anything is crap after using a nice pre/pro. As for the speakers, I really want to add a center and at least have a proper surround sound.

I'll still need to add a subwoofer to the living room, but I'm a little indecisive. I'm leaning towards migrating my epic 12" to the livingroom and putting a 15" in my game room. It's not that I need the additional bass or anything, but 1) I want it, and 2) my game room needs to have better stuff than the living room.
   
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Tom F
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Default 01-06-2013, 22:18 | posts: 2,822 | Location: Gloucesterestershire

Hmm. That 6moons review is predictably 'audiophile'.

Quote:
I dislike having any WiFi, Bluetooth or other wireless devices operating in my music room. On some subliminal level I generally feel on edge and have difficulty relaxing. I could be imagining this as experts (usually industry types who have a financial stake in such things) say itís impossible for wireless routers and the like to have any adverse effect on oneís psyche. Be that as it may, music just feels better without being bombarded by nearby low-level microwave energy.
Come on folks, get those routers turned off! It's a wonder the veil is ever really lifted at all.
   
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Mufflore
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Default 01-06-2013, 22:25 | posts: 10,244 | Location: United states of Kingdom

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom F View Post
True - but this stuff manages to work perfectly for our RAM / PCIe interfaces where much more data is transferred much faster (along long tracks next to noisy, power hungry devices in the case of a GPU!) for years on end (servers for example?) - I still don't quite get why this stuff works perfectly (and I mean perfectly) for everything else - yet there still appear to be differences?

Really, what we need to do is get a protocol analyser onto the data bus to the DAC chip. Then, we can see if it's getting the same data from JPlay and foobar.

I have a TotalPhase Beagle at work - I wonder if that decodes I2S?

A PC is undoubtedly a hostile environment - but that's all hardware. The software has no idea about what's going on in the outside world - if just processes the data somehow.
From what I have read so far, its only down to the EM interference and/or signal/voltage rail noise propagating through to the DACs clock or its power rails.
This affects how soon/late the clock pulse starts, how delayed/advanced it is reaching its trigger voltage (compared to previous/future clocks) and how much the trigger voltage level is modulated as well !

It appears that even how the data is transferred to the DAC during playback (ie bit by bit or multi bit) can have an effect if your kit has been fine tuned enough already.

Last edited by Mufflore; 01-06-2013 at 22:31.
   
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