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smnoamls
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Default 04-22-2009, 07:24 | posts: 1,426 | Location: israel

annoying flame war starter here.

Basically, even if you disable the page file, windows will always use the hard drive for some caching.
Cant be helped.
Some ram writes it sees as too volatile, it wont trust the ram in case of an unexpected crash. The SYSTEM ( 99% not the app ) will demand a write be done to a fixed non volatile memory.
If you force the non existant page file to a ram drive, then yes, you are fooling ( at least in XP ) the system to write its compulsry page file into ram.
It will speed it up.
But not matter what you do, windows will always ALWAYS write some data to hard drive while working.
Its for your safety.
And ours.
Dont run with scissors kids.
   
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SickBoy254698
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Default 04-22-2009, 07:28 | posts: 662 | Location: Someplace very, very hot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pillmonster
Um, no mate it doesn't... Once the PF is disabled the OS does not use the HDD it uses RAM for swap spce.

Also regarding the pagefile.sys - yes it does cease to exist, all you need to do is delete it from whichever drive you have your PF on. (of course you need to disable it before you can delete it though)......


Quote:
Although there are many differing opinions as to how big the pagefile should be, it is important not to 'disable' your pagefile regardless of how much RAM you have. Windows and certain programs need a pagefile in order to operate correctly. Setting the pagefile to zero does not force Windows to use your physical RAM. Windows Memory Management does not work that way.
Source: Koroush Ghazi, TweakGuides Tweaking Companion, WinXP, p.64

I was hoping someone would post this I just didn't know where to find it. Like it says. Disabling the paging file doesn't force files into RAM. Even if you disable the PF or set it to 0 Windows will still use it. I promise you. It wont use much, but it will still use the HD.

In the end though guys, we are arguing about a performance issue that is very inconsequential in the grand scheme of your PC's overall speed. Just wanted to point that out.
   
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Pill Monster
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Default 04-22-2009, 07:29 | posts: 25,235 | Location: NZ

Ok did you see the link I just posted from Microsoft Develpers website?

Quote:


When you set up a 32-bit version or a 64-bit version of Windows Server 2003 or Windows XP, a page file is created that is one and a half times the amount of RAM that is installed in the computer provided there is sufficient free space on the system hard disk. However, as more RAM is added to a computer, the need for a page file decreases. If you have enough RAM installed in your computer, you may not require a page file at all, unless one is required by a specific application.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smnoamls View Post
annoying flame war starter here.
Basically, even if you disable the page file, windows will always use the hard drive for some caching
Sorry but I have to disagree there.



Quote:
Originally Posted by smnoamls View Post
But not matter what you do, windows will always ALWAYS write some data to hard drive while working.
Its for your safety.
And ours.
Dont run with scissors kids.
Yes, no one is disputing that, but writing data to a disk is not the same as using a disk as virtual ram now is it?

Last edited by Pill Monster; 04-22-2009 at 07:57.
   
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Cybermancer
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Default 04-22-2009, 08:00 | posts: 13,801 | Location: Cyberspace

Pillmonster, nobody doubts whether it's working for you or others if you disable the pagefile.

In the quote you used in your post above, it also says: "(...) unless one is required by a specific application." Hence, leaving it on - even if it's just as a safety precaution, makes sense, imo.

As SickBoy254698 mentioned, this discussion is more or less about the performance and maybe, in the case of SSDs, about the wear and tear of the drive.

What I think is obvious though, is that whether you disable your pagefile, leave it enabled or use a RAM disk, the performance is more or less the same. Using a RAM disk might, under certain conditions, provide a performance increase.
   
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WhiteLightning
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Default 04-22-2009, 08:13 | posts: 26,448 | Location: Netherlands

Ive tried it years ago, gave nothing but problems for me. pc freezing, etc. i guess the applications that i use , really needed a pagefile, that or i really did something wrong lol
i cant remember which applications though, photoshop comes to mind, but im really not sure.
   
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Pill Monster
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Default 04-22-2009, 08:54 | posts: 25,235 | Location: NZ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cybermancer View Post
Pillmonster, nobody doubts whether it's working for you or others if you disable the pagefile.

In the quote you used in your post above, it also says: "(...) unless one is required by a specific application." Hence, leaving it on - even if it's just as a safety precaution, makes sense, imo.

As SickBoy254698 mentioned, this discussion is more or less about the performance and maybe, in the case of SSDs, about the wear and tear of the drive.

What I think is obvious though, is that whether you disable your pagefile, leave it enabled or use a RAM disk, the performance is more or less the same. Using a RAM disk might, under certain conditions, provide a performance increase.
Lolz looks like this thread has been officially hijacked....


Look, It makes no difference to me whether you, (Darth Mancer) Darth Cane, & the coffee boy (Sick Puppy), or any of your Imperial Paging File Forces from the planet Hard Drive want to fight the HDD space invading pagefile.sys monsters that are invading.

The good guys on the other hand, (that's us) Mr BigBalls, Xr 6cpants and the Pill Monster from 'Nam, free of the nasty I/O Write gremlins and pagefile.sys monsters, run through strawberry fields holding hands with the Ewoks and smoking a lot of Ewok weed and popping a lot of Ewok Pills at the cool dance parties they have on Endor. While talking to the girls about our big hard drives....



I'm just saying if you guys don't want to that's fine no one is forcing anyone, but people shouldn't knock or naysay things till they've actually tried it themselves that's all.... particularly if it's just info they've heard somewhere and are recycling it (not you Decane). You know what I'm getting at I think we had a convo about this a couple of months ago......

Last edited by Pill Monster; 04-22-2009 at 09:34.
   
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Pill Monster
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Default 04-22-2009, 08:55 | posts: 25,235 | Location: NZ

Dp...
   
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Mr.Bigtime
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Default 04-22-2009, 09:01 | posts: 20,704 | Location: Turkey

Let me make it clear.

PF.sys exist on HDD but how? When i disable it first i make it 16 MB and then restart my pc and make it DISABLE. so no way that OS uses HDD as PF...and when i load games i hear no BZZZZ sound and no HDD light is flashing in my CASE..i mean as i t happens PF is on..it just reads from HDD and maybe writes a bit for OS operations..but its clear..PF is on RAm..and as mentioned here, EVEREST shows that PF is on PHYSICAL RAM so windows creates it on RAM.
   
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Pill Monster
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Default 04-22-2009, 09:07 | posts: 25,235 | Location: NZ

^You can delete it if you want. It'll be on the root whichever drive your pf was on.

You'll need to uncheck the Hide System Files folfer option though to see it.
   
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Mr.Bigtime
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Default 04-22-2009, 09:08 | posts: 20,704 | Location: Turkey

yeah i see it but never thought to delete lol...let me do it today
   
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WhiteLightning
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Default 04-22-2009, 09:10 | posts: 26,448 | Location: Netherlands

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Bigtime View Post
yeah i see it but never thought to delete lol...let me do it today
get your windows cd ready muhahaha J/K
   
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Mr.Bigtime
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Default 04-22-2009, 09:23 | posts: 20,704 | Location: Turkey

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteLightning View Post
get your windows cd ready muhahaha J/K
i bought a Seagte 1TB externall HDD on Saturday and my whole Vista 64 is backed up into it lol



And i didnt notice Pillmonsters post first time...

Quote:
Lolz looks like this thread has been officially hijacked....


Look, It makes no difference to me whether you, (Darth Mancer) Darth Cane, & the coffee boy (Sick Puppy), or any of your Imperial Paging File Forces from the planet Hard Drive want to fight the HDD space invading pagefile.sys monsters that are invading.

The good guys on the other hand, (that's us) Mr BigBalls, Xr 6cpants and the Pill Monster from 'Nam, free of the nasty I/O Write gremlins and pagefile.sys monsters, run through strawberry fields holding hands with the Ewoks and smoking a lot of Ewok weed and popping a lot of Ewok Pills at the cool dance parties they have on Endor. While talking to the girls about our big hard drives....



I'm just saying if you guys don't want to that's fine no one is forcing anyone, but people shouldn't knock or naysay things till they've actually tried it themselves that's all.... particularly if it's just info they've heard somewhere and are recycling it (not you Decane). You know what I'm getting at I think we had a convo about this a couple of months ago......

Dont mess with him (i love this nerd face.)...

The point is right, no offence. I try NPF and it works..it seems i dont use PF MUST applications so i dont have problem. and yes some games like DAWN OF WAR II asks for it but its matter of developer do it or not. as i posted u can disable that PF check with a shortcut command...


Anyway guys. PURE RAM = PURE GAMING.
   
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putty
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Default 04-22-2009, 09:34 | posts: 1,649 | Location: The Netherlands

its just hippeys that try to be different, well guys! stick it to the man!... er i mean the pagefileman!!
   
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WhiteLightning
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Default 04-22-2009, 09:36 | posts: 26,448 | Location: Netherlands

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Bigtime View Post
The point is right, no offence. I try NPF and it works..it seems i dont use PF MUST applications so i dont have problem. and yes some games like DAWN OF WAR II asks for it but its matter of developer do it or not. as i posted u can disable that PF check with a shortcut command...


Anyway guys. PURE RAM = PURE GAMING.
ok ok, i will try it again tonight when i get home. (ive got a backup of vista too, so im safe haha )
   
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Mr.Bigtime
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Default 04-22-2009, 09:48 | posts: 20,704 | Location: Turkey

white. do not try pls.. u dont have at least 6 GB...my point is 8GB only...dont know 6Gb infact.

My CRYSIS crashed when i used 4GB..out of memory error....at least 8GB.
   
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WhiteLightning
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Default 04-22-2009, 09:49 | posts: 26,448 | Location: Netherlands

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Bigtime View Post
white. do not try pls.. u dont have at least 6 GB...my point is 8GB only...dont know 6Gb infact.
Really ???

Damn! hmm 79 euro for 4gb more for me. guess ill have to wait then
   
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Default 04-22-2009, 09:57 | posts: 25,235 | Location: NZ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Bigtime View Post
white. do not try pls.. u dont have at least 6 GB...my point is 8GB only...dont know 6Gb infact.

My CRYSIS crashed when i used 4GB..out of memory error....at least 8GB.
Yeah man I don't know what it is with Vista that makes it do that. I've heard that from other people too..

Wonder if it would work with Win7 though?
   
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Pill Monster
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Default 04-22-2009, 09:59 | posts: 25,235 | Location: NZ

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteLightning View Post
Really ???

Damn! hmm 79 euro for 4gb more for me. guess ill have to wait then
http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread....ight=page+file

Lol don't you remember?
   
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Mr.Bigtime
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Default 04-22-2009, 10:04 | posts: 20,704 | Location: Turkey

79 euros for 4GB? damn expensive..i total gave 100 euros to my Kingston slim 667 DDR2 rams...


and Xp was good with 2GB.. with my 8800GT + 2GB ddr2 667MHZ and e6550, i had no problem for months.....Crysis was running good. but Vista? now way..V***304;sta caches services or what ever to RAM. when u need the physical ram, it DE CACHE(or how u call it ) and leave the ram for u. and i guess SUPERPREFETCH or what ever works great with pure ram. while starting ur PC those kind of service loads to ram and which gives to boost to ur OS usage..when i click to a windows related program or lets say SYSTEM it appears fast..how was the theory? windows V***304;sta focus on the programs u mostly use and it makes them cached so when u want to start them they start faster than other programs that u dont use commonly.

Last edited by Mr.Bigtime; 04-22-2009 at 10:08.
   
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WhiteLightning
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Default 04-22-2009, 10:11 | posts: 26,448 | Location: Netherlands

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pillmonster View Post
no not really, my memory is like swiss cheeze sometimes LOL


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Bigtime View Post
79 euros for 4GB? damn expensive..i total gave 100 euros to my Kingston slim 667 DDR2 rams...
i dont have ddr2

Last edited by WhiteLightning; 04-22-2009 at 10:16.
   
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Default 04-22-2009, 10:12 | posts: 55 | Location: Italy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cybermancer View Post
What software do you use for the RAM disk?

I just recently got a 60 GB SSD (OCZ vertex series), too, and at first I left the pagefile like setup by default (Vista 64-Bit, SP1) on my SSD.
I still had my 70 GB Raptor sitting around, so I moved all temp folders and the pagefile on it.
I didn't run any benchmarks, but not only did this moving of the pagefile to the Raptor increase the lifespan of my SSD, but it also feels a bit faster, too.

I'm wondering now if it makes sense to use 2GB of my RAM (6 GB all in all) for a RAM disk and move the pagefile into it.

What do you think?
I use RamDisk Plus... a 2GB RamDisk just for the pagefile is a waste of RAM imho... With 6GB of RAM I would use a pagefile not bigger than 512MB.
   
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FallenAngel
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Default 04-22-2009, 10:16 | posts: 55 | Location: Italy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Decane View Post
Guys, if Windows automatically used RAM as swap space upon having the PF 'disabled', then why do you think ramdisks exist to simulate that purpose? It's possible to tweak Windows to use virtual memory as little as possible, but you won't prevent Windows from using a pagfile by disabling it; pagefile.sys will not cease to exist on the hard-drive. Also: where do you think the data that is paged comes from? Your hard-drive! That means there will still be bottlenecks even with a ramdisk -- initially, the data is written from your hard-drive, and if there's lots of it, there will be slowdowns.

The optimal solution would be an SSD + virtual ramdisk, but even then, the SSD would somewhat bottleneck the ramdisk.

Cybermancer: Google SuperSpeed RamDisk Plus.
I have no pagefile.sys on any of my partitions... just on my RamDisk... as I said I use a small one (256MB) just in case any app absolutely needs a pagefile...
   
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Mr.Bigtime
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Default 04-22-2009, 10:22 | posts: 20,704 | Location: Turkey

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteLightning View Post
no not really, my memory is like swiss cheeze sometimes LOL




i dont have ddr2
lol cant see it from here i am certificated noob u know ..and i paid 100 euros to toal of my 8GB
   
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Pill Monster
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Default 04-22-2009, 11:17 | posts: 25,235 | Location: NZ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Bigtime View Post
lol cant see it from here i am certificated noob u know ..and i paid 100 euros to toal of my 8GB
Hey did u try out that 1.5 patch yet?
   
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Mr.Bigtime
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Default 04-22-2009, 12:31 | posts: 20,704 | Location: Turkey

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pillmonster View Post
Hey did u try out that 1.5 patch yet?
1.5 patch of? BF2? no is it out?!
   
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