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SnooSnoo
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Default 04-21-2009, 07:15 | posts: 1,177 | Location: Croatia

I hate that pagefile thing also, allways scribbling something on the damn hdd. I must say that linux in that regard just owns. It uses swap only if you ran out of ram. Anyway, my work puter has now vista on and I bought a damn fast usb stick for ready boost(11MB/swrite, 30ish for read), it did improve some loading times and such. Since my machine has only 2GB RAM, the readyboost thing is not a bad idea. However I would like to be in control as in to what goes into that cache and not vista. I'm still smarter than it (I hope ).
   
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Default 04-21-2009, 09:17 | posts: 20,704 | Location: Turkey

CRYSIS first level load in 16.47 secs on me with NPF. if enable PF, it goes around 40- 60 seconds..think the HDD is fragmented also.

Anyway after years of experience i cant accept PF and HDD compare to PURE ram...

and i dont think SSDs can catch a performance level ram..or they can? musnt comment cause i enver used SSD.
   
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Default 04-21-2009, 09:28 | posts: 55 | Location: Italy

I use a small pagefile (256MB) on a RamDisk, just in case.... I have 8GB of RAM, 2GB are dedicated for the RamDisk so 6GB are available for the OS, the other 2GB are for pagefile and temp stuff...
   
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Default 04-21-2009, 09:43 | posts: 662 | Location: Someplace very, very hot.

I have Vista Ultimate 64. Sometimes I use 4GB sometimes 8GB. Either way I set the page file to auto configure on the system drive. Oh yes. I said it.

I do it for two reasons.

One is hard drive space. My system partition is 375GB. I've got GTA IV and COD 4 1.6 installed on the system drive. I keep everything else on my other two hard drives. As of right now I have 291GB of free space on the system partition that isn't doing jack. Might as well let Windows waste some space.

The other reason is Windows uses the paging file with 4GB and with 8GB. I just checked my computer after having it on for two and a half hours. The current paging file usage is 17MB with a peak usage of 17MB. What for you ask? How the hell should I know. Honestly it doesn't concern me. IMO if Windows uses the paging file with 4GB and 8GB then it needs to be on. Does it need to be Auto configured to its current ginormous size? No, but you should have something.

I'm not trying to defend Microsoft, the paging file, or Windows. I hate all three of them just as much as the next guy. All I'm trying to do is suggest what I truly think will give the best performance. I've tried so many different paging file tweaks it's ridiculous. In the end the last three computers I have had performed best when I set it to let Windows auto configure the paging file. Two had XP and this one has Vista. Flame on!
   
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Default 04-21-2009, 09:48 | posts: 25,235 | Location: NZ

^^ Lmao.....


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Bigtime View Post
CRYSIS first level load in 16.47 secs on me with NPF. if enable PF, it goes around 40- 60 seconds..think the HDD is fragmented also.

Anyway after years of experience i cant accept PF and HDD compare to PURE ram...

and i dont think SSDs can catch a performance level ram..or they can? musnt comment cause i enver used SSD.
Yeah I think you should be pretty safe there lolz.

Don't see hard drives becoming faster than ram anytime soon hehe ( even solid state drives....)
   
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Default 04-21-2009, 23:02 | posts: 2,577 | Location: Netherlands

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pillmonster View Post
^^ Lmao.....


Yeah I think you should be pretty safe there lolz.

Don't see hard drives becoming faster than ram anytime soon hehe ( even solid state drives....)
Well, the reviews of SSD's from Hillbert show that he actually runs into a processing bottleneck using SSD's for loading Cod4.
Loading times are 60% faster using SSD's versus HDD's
http://www.guru3d.com/article/ocz-ve...-ssd-review/11

Mr.Bigtime results show similar values --> if you take 40 seconds loading time versus 16.47, it would also be about 60% faster.

I think you'd be better of with an SSD WITH pagefile than using an HDD without. You avoid trouble when running out of physical memory and get the most speed out of it.
Your computer would be even faster in general, cos not all the load is laid on the RAM.
   
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David Lake
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Default 04-21-2009, 23:36 | posts: 630 | Location: Stevenage

Ram spec to the left and I use a 512MB pagefile 32bit XP can only use 2.25GB with my 2x GTX285's hogging all the address space oh and I have a 120GB Vertex SSD.

Of course I have Visty x64 as well I just prefer XP for general stuff.
   
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Cybermancer
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Default 04-22-2009, 00:17 | posts: 13,801 | Location: Cyberspace

Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenAngel View Post
I use a small pagefile (256MB) on a RamDisk, just in case.... I have 8GB of RAM, 2GB are dedicated for the RamDisk so 6GB are available for the OS, the other 2GB are for pagefile and temp stuff...
What software do you use for the RAM disk?

I just recently got a 60 GB SSD (OCZ vertex series), too, and at first I left the pagefile like setup by default (Vista 64-Bit, SP1) on my SSD.
I still had my 70 GB Raptor sitting around, so I moved all temp folders and the pagefile on it.
I didn't run any benchmarks, but not only did this moving of the pagefile to the Raptor increase the lifespan of my SSD, but it also feels a bit faster, too.

I'm wondering now if it makes sense to use 2GB of my RAM (6 GB all in all) for a RAM disk and move the pagefile into it.

What do you think?
   
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Pill Monster
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Default 04-22-2009, 00:27 | posts: 25,235 | Location: NZ

Quote:
Originally Posted by VultureX View Post
Well, the reviews of SSD's from Hillbert show that he actually runs into a processing bottleneck using SSD's for loading Cod4.
Loading times are 60% faster using SSD's versus HDD's
http://www.guru3d.com/article/ocz-ve...-ssd-review/11

Mr.Bigtime results show similar values --> if you take 40 seconds loading time versus 16.47, it would also be about 60% faster.

I think you'd be better of with an SSD WITH pagefile than using an HDD without.
Well of course SSD's are faster than HDD's with platters. But they are still nowhere the speed of RAM. If they were, we wouldn't need ram now would we?


Quote:
You avoid trouble when running out of physical memory and get the most speed out of it.
That's why you need a decent amount of RAM installed before you can turn off your page file...I think 8Gb is prob enough.


Quote:
Your computer would be even faster in general, cos not all the load is laid on the RAM.
Sorry but that couldn't be further from the truth. It's faster because everything is in RAM.
   
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Pill Monster
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Default 04-22-2009, 00:30 | posts: 25,235 | Location: NZ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cybermancer View Post
What software do you use for the RAM disk?
I'm wondering now if it makes sense to use 2GB of my RAM (6 GB all in all) for a RAM disk and move the pagefile into it.

What do you think?
I don't really see the point, because windows uses RAM as virtual memory if the PF is turned off - so you're not really doing anything different by creating a virtual drive in RAM, your OS does it anyway.



Field Value
Physical Memory
Total 3582 MB
Used 449 MB
Free 3133 MB
Utilization 13 %

Swap Space
Total 3418 MB
Used 322 MB
Free 3095 MB
Utilization 9 %

Virtual Memory
Total 7000 MB
Used 771 MB
Free 6228 MB
Utilization 11 %

Physical Address Extension (PAE)
Supported by Operating System Yes
Supported by CPU Yes
Active Yes


You see what I'm getting at.... This is from my PC with no PF but windows still uses virtual memory...(or at least it thinks it is lol)

Last edited by Pill Monster; 04-22-2009 at 00:37.
   
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F1refly
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Default 04-22-2009, 00:37 | posts: 9,042 | Location: Indiana

i have 4 gigs and no page file for past 2 years and never an issue.
   
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Pill Monster
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Default 04-22-2009, 00:41 | posts: 25,235 | Location: NZ

Although imagine if you created a virtual ram drive and then loaded your games or apps whatever onto it.

Think how fast your load times would be.....
   
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Default 04-22-2009, 01:25 | posts: 6,004 | Location: Middlesbrough, England

I think it was pillmonster that asked the differences in speed?

Even the fastest SSD's are topping out at 150MB/s of bandwidth... With DRAM, atleast on the Core2 boards, you're looking at atleast 8500MB/s with 1066mhz RAM
   
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Default 04-22-2009, 01:27 | posts: 9,042 | Location: Indiana

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pillmonster View Post
Although imagine if you created a virtual ram drive and then loaded your games or apps whatever onto it.

Think how fast your load times would be.....
what, no smoke breaks between levels? no excuse to have that next shot of vodka?
lol, but i wouldnt say instant level loading is a necessity considering all the time we waste on other stupid things in life.

faster to just ALT/Tab out during play and use standbye mode. avoids intro's..etc.
works for me anyway.
   
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Cybermancer
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Default 04-22-2009, 03:51 | posts: 13,801 | Location: Cyberspace

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pillmonster View Post
I don't really see the point, because windows uses RAM as virtual memory if the PF is turned off - so you're not really doing anything different by creating a virtual drive in RAM, your OS does it anyway.
Well, there are applications that still need a pagefile - or so I thought and read. I don't want to cripple my PC in any way. I don't know. I guess, I'm just a bit reluctant to turn it off completely.
   
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Pill Monster
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Default 04-22-2009, 04:06 | posts: 25,235 | Location: NZ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cybermancer View Post
Well, there are applications that still need a pagefile - or so I thought and read. I don't want to cripple my PC in any way. I don't know. I guess, I'm just a bit reluctant to turn it off completely.
If you have a look at my last post you'll see Everest says I have a 3.5 Gb page file, but In reality I have it turned off.. Windows is still using a page file the only thing is that it's not on my HDD it's in my RAM....

I don't know how an app can tell weather a PC's PF is on the HDD or in RAM, but if it can then do you think creating a virtual drive would fool an app that needs a pagefile?
Guess you'll know if you make a virtual drive....just see how you go - only one way to find out.

What apps are you using that need one?
   
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Default 04-22-2009, 04:20 | posts: 330 | Location: UK

I have my P/file disabled and have done so for a few years now.

I think if you have ram of 4gig or more and still have p/file errrors then there is something wrong with your setup because unless you run a lot of apps at once you will not run out of mem.

Please test this theory it is easy.
Just try running 100 programs at once and see what happens to your mem.
   
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Cybermancer
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Default 04-22-2009, 05:07 | posts: 13,801 | Location: Cyberspace

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pillmonster View Post
What apps are you using that need one?
I'm not necessarily running one right now, but every now and then I'm using older applications that might need one. Again: that's what I read. I'm just trying to learn a bit more about this.

Anyway. Thanks a lot, Pillmonster and sepulchre. Eventually, I'll give it a shot and turn it off completely to see how it goes. For right now I moved it from my SSD to my WD Raptor.
   
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Default 04-22-2009, 06:35 | posts: 5,168 | Location: England (/Finland)

Guys, if Windows automatically used RAM as swap space upon having the PF 'disabled', then why do you think ramdisks exist to simulate that purpose? It's possible to tweak Windows to use virtual memory as little as possible, but you won't prevent Windows from using a pagfile by disabling it; pagefile.sys will not cease to exist on the hard-drive. Also: where do you think the data that is paged comes from? Your hard-drive! That means there will still be bottlenecks even with a ramdisk -- initially, the data is written from your hard-drive, and if there's lots of it, there will be slowdowns.

The optimal solution would be an SSD + virtual ramdisk, but even then, the SSD would somewhat bottleneck the ramdisk.

Cybermancer: Google SuperSpeed RamDisk Plus.
   
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Cybermancer
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Default 04-22-2009, 06:50 | posts: 13,801 | Location: Cyberspace

Interesting, Decane.

I did google it and am quite surprised RamDisk Plus costs $99.95 for the Vista 64-Bit version. Sure, quality has its price, but with Windows 7 around the corner, I'm not so sure if those $100 wouldn't be better invested into the new OS.

Do you use RamDisk Plus? Do you think something like a RamDisk makes actually sense?
   
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Decane
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Default 04-22-2009, 07:02 | posts: 5,168 | Location: England (/Finland)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cybermancer View Post
Do you use RamDisk Plus? Do you think something like a RamDisk makes actually sense?
I tried it for a short while, and yes, there was a small boost in OS navigation speed, but I surely would not pay $100 for it. Also, I tested Fallout 3 performance with it, and it was virtually identical to just having a fixed swap space on my HD. In the end, I think a ramdisk is more beneficial to users who tend to leave their PC on for 24+ hours, hence its more frequent use in servers. I just find it funny how so many people swear by keeping their pagefile 'disabled' since it brings them 'superior performance' when even a ramdisk will hardly bring about any noticeable improvements. However, like I stated earlier, if the PC is constantly powered up, data does not need to be re-written into virtual memory each time an application is run, which may constitute noticeable performance gains.

If you're interested in trying it out, I suggest you do -- the trial is free, it won't break your PC, and the program is pretty "clean" in the regard that it only creates a system file which you can delete after you're done with the program. If nothing else, you'll be able to form your own opinion on the usefulness of a ramdisk.
   
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Pill Monster
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Default 04-22-2009, 07:04 | posts: 25,235 | Location: NZ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Decane View Post
Guys, if Windows automatically used RAM as swap space upon having the PF 'disabled', then why do you think ramdisks exist to simulate that purpose? It's possible to tweak Windows to use virtual memory as little as possible, but you won't prevent Windows from using a pagfile by disabling it; pagefile.sys will not cease to exist on the hard-drive. Also: where do you think the data that is paged comes from? Your hard-drive! That means there will still be bottlenecks even with a ramdisk -- initially, the data is written from your hard-drive, and if there's lots of it, there will be slowdowns.

The optimal solution would be an SSD + virtual ramdisk, but even then, the SSD would somewhat bottleneck the ramdisk.

Cybermancer: Google SuperSpeed RamDisk Plus.
Um, no mate it doesn't... Once the PF is disabled the OS does not use the HDD it uses RAM for swap spce.

Also regarding the pagefile.sys - yes it does cease to exist, all you need to do is delete it from whichever drive you have your PF on. (of course you need to disable it before you can delete it though)......

EDit Yeah do know what you mean about the info being loaded into ram initially, but that's different to the RAM needing extra space on the drive.... I mean basically if you don't have a PF your whole application loaded into RAM to start with

Last edited by Pill Monster; 04-22-2009 at 07:13.
   
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Decane
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Default 04-22-2009, 07:11 | posts: 5,168 | Location: England (/Finland)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pillmonster View Post
Um, no mate it doesn't... Once the PF is disabled the OS does not use the HDD it uses RAM for swap spce.

Also regarding the pagefile.sys - yes it does cease to exist, all you need to do is delete it from whichever drive you have your PF on. (of course you need to disable it before you can delete it though)......
Quote:
Although there are many differing opinions as to how big the pagefile should be, it is important not to 'disable' your pagefile regardless of how much RAM you have. Windows and certain programs need a pagefile in order to operate correctly. Setting the pagefile to zero does not force Windows to use your physical RAM. Windows Memory Management does not work that way.
Source: Koroush Ghazi, TweakGuides Tweaking Companion, WinXP, p.64
   
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Cybermancer
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Default 04-22-2009, 07:12 | posts: 13,801 | Location: Cyberspace

Quote:
Originally Posted by Decane View Post
I tried it for a short while, and yes, there was a small boost in OS navigation speed, but I surely would not pay $100 for it. Also, I tested Fallout 3 performance with it, and it was virtually identical to just having a fixed swap space on my HD. In the end, I think a ramdisk is more beneficial to users who tend to leave their PC on for 24+ hours, hence its more frequent use in servers. I just find it funny how so many people swear by keeping their pagefile 'disabled' since it brings them 'superior performance' when even a ramdisk will hardly bring about any noticeable improvements. However, like I stated earlier, if the PC is constantly powered up, data does not need to be re-written into virtual memory each time an application is run, which may constitute noticeable performance gains.

If you're interested in trying it out, I suggest you do -- the trial is free, it won't break your PC, and the program is pretty "clean" in the regard that it only creates a system file which you can delete after you're done with the program. If nothing else, you'll be able to form your own opinion on the usefulness of a ramdisk.
Makes sense and is about what I expected, tbh. I might try RamDisk Plus one time, but as far as I'm concerned, I'm pretty happy with the pagefile being enabled and on the WD Raptor - at least for now.

I already suspected that either disabling the pagefile or using a RAM disk wouldn't give me any magical speed increases (considering my usage of the OS and its setup anyway). It's just interesting to hear/read what other people have to say and what their experiences are.

Thanks a lot!

Last edited by Cybermancer; 04-22-2009 at 07:15.
   
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Pill Monster
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Default 04-22-2009, 07:15 | posts: 25,235 | Location: NZ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Decane View Post
Source: Koroush Ghazi, TweakGuides Tweaking Companion, WinXP, p.64
Ok but where does it say it uses the HDD.

All that really says is that if you disable your PF and windows runs outta ram it won't automatically use your HDD, therefore you PC will crash....

Can you please give me a link ....




Here is one from the horses mouth...the MSDN website....


Quote:
When you set up a 32-bit version or a 64-bit version of Windows Server 2003 or Windows XP, a page file is created that is one and a half times the amount of RAM that is installed in the computer provided there is sufficient free space on the system hard disk. However, as more RAM is added to a computer, the need for a page file decreases. If you have enough RAM installed in your computer, you may not require a page file at all, unless one is required by a specific application.

Last edited by Pill Monster; 04-22-2009 at 07:26.
   
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