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  (#101)
Ultrax75
 
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Default 01-16-2005, 14:00 | posts: n/a

Still have the could not load driver problem. And I have NO sharing if IRQs....
   
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Old
  (#102)
Animatrix
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Default 01-16-2005, 14:34 | posts: 6,843 | Location: Denmark

You can try updateing the PCI ID database for PCI Latency Tool v2.0.

You can update the PCI ID database by downloading a new version and replacing the existing one:
http://pciids.sourceforge.net/pci.ids
http://pciids.sourceforge.net/

Or try this called DoubleDawg.

DoubleDawg Home page ( no set on boot )
http://www.mark-knutson.com/t3/index.html
DoubleDawg
http://www.mark-knutson.com/t3/dbldawg.zip

Or

PowerStrip 3.57 (Not free. Nag screen.)
http://entechtaiwan.net/util/ps.shtm
   
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  (#103)
DaRk_fIbRE
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Default 01-16-2005, 15:09 | posts: 670 | Location: Essex, UK

Im totally new to this latency

[IMG][/IMG]

Any idea what i should change ?
   
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  (#104)
Camster
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Default 01-16-2005, 15:17 | posts: 131 | Location: Ottawa, Canada

^ I would adjust your VGA Controller from 255 to say 128 and see how it goes first. And then try 64 next but don't go any lower than 32.

Cam
   
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Old
  (#105)
bilston
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Default 01-16-2005, 15:18 | posts: 126

Try changing 255 to 128. Thanks Animatrix, will try updating the tool now.

EDIT: Ok, just reboot and it still gives the error not gonna bother anymore.

Last edited by bilston; 01-16-2005 at 15:23.
   
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  (#106)
oFcA
 
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Default 01-16-2005, 15:47 | posts: n/a

I have the same latencies as Red Hack...
Pci ti Agp bridge is set to 16...and my firewire controller and multimedia video controller were set to 32...
So, I should set my vga card latency to 128 for starters?
And then go lower....
How do I know when I'm low enough..
Is there any downside if I set it to 32 right away? To make sure that I get the best performance increase possible...
I know it's not about FPS...I meant, best STUTTER-free performance
   
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  (#107)
Ultrax75
 
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Default 01-16-2005, 15:56 | posts: n/a

Hm this is my experience and what I have read:

The higher the PCI latency for the GFX card the higher the FPS i benchmarks and many games.

However, in my experience this FPS difference isn't very big (500 aquamarks for me). However, by turning down the PCI latency for my GFX card my load times (for some strange reason) where shortend and my sound have a few less pops (trying to get rid of a pop and distortion problem with EAX).
Apparently it can also help you get rid of ceatain "freezing/sutter problems".

I would recommend you to try 192, 128 and 64 and see which one suits you best. I can not recommend 32 because of my experience and I would definitely not recommend you going below 32.


Personally I am willing to sacrifice 2 to 3 % of my performance if it means faster load times (still not understanding that part), slightly better sound and a slightly more fluid gameplay. But everyone is different.


Edit: THX ANIMATRIX (it seems to work now...).

Last edited by Ultrax75; 01-16-2005 at 16:03.
   
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  (#108)
{HLH}
 
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Default 01-16-2005, 16:34 | posts: n/a

its odd that it now works for you ultra

maybe some people have an option off in the bios or a device in thier machines which the program doesn't support
   
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  (#109)
Animatrix
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Default 01-16-2005, 17:04 | posts: 6,843 | Location: Denmark

I think by now there's enough information in this thread on what PCI latency is and do.
But some how i get the feeling that the word latency is getting misunderstood, here's why i think.

The word latency in PCI latency Ex.128. Is NOT a latency delay (read or write) of 128 somthing put on the device.

It is the number of CYCLES that the device can HOLD an IRQ before it is disconnected as a function of fairness algorithms.
Or the time a device has access to the PCI bus before it will be automatically disconnected.


Quote:
The word latencies is generally used to describe a delay. However, Merriam-Webster defines the word’s origin as period of dormancy and in technical parlance, latency is often used to describe simply the duration of any event. One example is the PCI latency which describes the time any device has access to the PCI bus before it will be automatically disconnected to allow other devices access to the same resources.

Why are we talking about this? Very simple, the access latencies of any device to the PCI bus are usually eight cycles, but the total latency can be set from 16-256 cycles. This shows that the same word is used to describe two entirely different parameters, the first being the time until any transactions can start, the second referring to the time that is available for transactions (minus the access latencies). As an example, a PCI latency of 32 will carry a penalty (access latency) of 8 cycles which leaves 24 cycles for actual data transfers. Therefore, decreasing this latency will not increase performance, on the contrary.
and here same thing.

Quote:
PCI latency refers to the number of cycles that any device can hold an IRQ before it is disconnected as a function of fairness algorithms. The average access latency varies from one system to another but a good example is 8 cycles. This means that if the latency is set to 32 cycles, the ratio between access latency and transfer cycles will be 1:3. Increasing the PCI latency to e.g. 64 cycles will change this ratio to 1:7 (since the access latency remains unchanged) and this will allow more data to be transferred on each access and also reduce the relative access latency overhead.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

On PCI-E.

Well there is a difference in architecture.


PCI:

Current PCI specifications are based on a multi-drop, parallel bus implementation:

Quote:
On a multidrop bus, all devices attached to it are connected to the same set of wires. When a device is using the PCI bus, no other device can communicate over the bus. All connected devices must share the bus and wait their turn before sending or receiving data.

PCI-E:

*PCI Express has the following advantages over PCI:

Quote:
Point-to-point link dedicated to each device, instead of the PCI shared bus. Opportunities for lower latency (or delay) in server architectures, because PCI Express provides a more direct connection to the chip set Northbridge.
Quote:
Serial bus architectures enable a network of dedicated point-to-point links between devices as opposed to the multi-drop basis of parallel bus architectures.
This eliminates the need for bus arbitration, provides deterministic low latency, and greatly simplifies hot plug/hot swap system implementations.
Quote:
PCI Express architecture is based on a series of point-to-point connections. These connections employ a serialized, packed-based data transfer scheme more
similar to an Ethernet network than to a traditional PCI bus. Each of these connections has dedicated upstream and downstream bandwidth and supports bidirectional
transfers. In cases where more than two devices need to communicate with one another, chipset makers can build a switched fabric to arbitrate multiple PCI-E conversations without compromising bandwidth to any device.


But as for PCI Express not using (some say) PCI latency because of the bus architectur difference.
Well im a bit confused. Bus architectur is not enough IRQ wise.

Now the fact that an PCI Express device is not sharing the bus do not mean that it can hold (interrupt) the CPU forever.

Understand this, IRQ's are NOT just an device "parking space".
IRQ's are used to inform or interrupt the processor that/when an I/O Port/Device needs attention.

Quote:
When an interrupt is generated by a device, it goes to the PIC. Multiple interrupts may be generated simultaneously. But, they are all buffered by the PIC. It is
the PIC that decides which one of these interrupts should be forwarded to the CPU. To inform the CPU that an outstanding interrupt is waiting to be processed, the
PIC sends an interrupt request (INTR) to the CPU, which then, at the appropriate time, responds with an interrupt acknowledgment (INTA). At this time, PIC will
put an 8-bit interrupt type number associated with the device on the bus so that the CPU can identify which interrupt handler to invoke. (See below.) In the case
when several interrupts are pending, PIC will send next interrupt request to the CPU only after it receives an end of interrupt command from the current interrupt handler.
A note about 80x86 Interrupt Architecture
http://www.csc.uvic.ca/~mcheng/360/notes/INT86.html

So multiple (as i see it) IRQ handles and request needs to be supported by the CPU as well.

Eg. The bus may be free for the PCI Express device but the CPU has to deal with many interrupts.
The sound card, keyboard, mouse, printer, programs (software interrupts) etc. See what im getting at?

Quote:
The CPU will then temporally store the program and data it is working on in an area of memory know as the stack and load a routine (program) to service the interrupting device, service the device (move that data out of its buffer, etc.), and then restore the program and data it was previously working on and resume what it was doing.

A CPU can be interrupted many times a second--a marvelously complicated affair when one considers that a CPU can be working on one interrupt request and be
interrupted in this task by still another IRQ request of a higher priority, etc., and that it usually does all of this juggling without losing a beat or data.
IRQs - Interrupt Requests
http://www.duxcw.com/faq/irq/irq.htm

As IRQs (interrupts) are prioritize eg. some IRQ are the highest priority interrupts.
(I think the highest priority interrupts are 14 and 15, the IDE Channels.)

This may have some impact on PCI latency settings for each device depending on what IRQ it's using.


If any one feels like making any corrections please do so.


Links


Interrupts.
http://www.windowsnetworking.com/j_helmig/interupt.htm
http://www.internals.com/articles/pr...interrupts.htm
Interrupts (Loooowww level stuff.)
http://www.csee.umbc.edu/~plusquel/3...nterrupts.html

Using Interrupts.
http://www.beyondlogic.org/interrupts/interupt.htm

Interrupt Latencies.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/de...tlatencies.asp
   
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  (#110)
Cpt_Rio
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Default 01-16-2005, 17:53 | posts: 3

Can anyone help me changing my settings?

   
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  (#111)
bilston
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Default 01-16-2005, 17:56 | posts: 126

Yours dont need changing rio, only the latest cards have higher latencies to begin with
   
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  (#112)
sattanhussein
 
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Default 01-16-2005, 18:26 | posts: n/a

i see people talking about change IDE and Audio controllers, but i can't do it. when i change it the "new latency" changes, but i go on Apply and nothing happens, even if i reboot. i tried other programs and nothing. also on Powerstip i can't see where to change these latencies, only VGA...

is it my mobo?
   
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  (#113)
Animatrix
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Default 01-16-2005, 18:27 | posts: 6,843 | Location: Denmark

Quote:
Cpt_Rio
Can anyone help me changing my settings?
Changing?
Do you mean what settings to use or how to change and apply settings?


You can try PCI latency 64 for #07 and #08 and PCI latency 128 for #11 and #12


But you need too test your setting any way.
It's your system and not my, so test some differed settings.

You can keep it within 32 to 128, thats within "normal" settings.
   
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  (#114)
Animatrix
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Default 01-16-2005, 18:43 | posts: 6,843 | Location: Denmark

Quote:
Originally posted by sattanhussein
also on Powerstip i can't see where to change these latencies, only VGA... is it my mobo?
Well as for Powerstip it just poor interface. Hard to find.

First of you need to un-check the "Read-Only" on the "Adapter infomation" page.
It's on the right side, low above the "Diagnostic report"

Next the way to select the device is by using the 2 buttons with arrows on.
The buttons are on the right side high just under the help (?) and close window (x).

Then you need to "Apply" for each device before moving on to the next.
   
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  (#115)
{HLH}
 
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Default 01-16-2005, 18:53 | posts: n/a

sigh.... people obviously aren't reading the thread i started...

or the step guide on the download page

and yet we have several ati users saying they need to mod the registry even though i never did.. the program just worked...
and im on the latest cat's
   
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  (#116)
sattanhussein
 
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Default 01-16-2005, 21:26 | posts: n/a

Quote:
Originally posted by Animatrix
Well as for Powerstip it just poor interface. Hard to find.

First of you need to un-check the "Read-Only" on the "Adapter infomation" page.
It's on the right side, low above the "Diagnostic report"

Next the way to select the device is by using the 2 buttons with arrows on.
The buttons are on the right side high just under the help (?) and close window (x).

Then you need to "Apply" for each device before moving on to the next.
thanks, but still can't change. the latency is locked on every another device but VGA...
   
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  (#117)
Animatrix
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Default 01-16-2005, 22:57 | posts: 6,843 | Location: Denmark

Quote:
sattanhussein
thanks, but still can't change. the latency is locked on every another device but VGA...
Is it grayed out a say 0.

If so then yes you can't change it.
   
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  (#118)
nealh
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Default 01-16-2005, 23:42 | posts: 40

In my pci latencies..the ide controllers for Parallel drives and serial ata are set to 0....agp-pci bus is set 16

seems you would expect the parallel and serial ata to hold pci bus a bit....

hmm..is there a good site to explain what would be optimal settings for serial /parallel ide controllers...

seems like agp is best at 64, 128, 248....
   
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  (#119)
Burnt_Ram
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Default 01-17-2005, 00:22 | posts: 5,926 | Location: British Columbia

Quote:
Originally posted by nealh
In my pci latencies..the ide controllers for Parallel drives and serial ata are set to 0....agp-pci bus is set 16

seems you would expect the parallel and serial ata to hold pci bus a bit....

hmm..is there a good site to explain what would be optimal settings for serial /parallel ide controllers...

seems like agp is best at 64, 128, 248....
of those three settings ive personaly found 64 to be the best. i really noticed it playing Nascar 2003 Season. i used to get little micro pauses with it at 128, but not at 64. completely gone (smooth).
   
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  (#120)
voivodian
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Default 01-17-2005, 02:22 | posts: 19 | Location: Novi Sad, Serbia

Quote:
Originally posted by Ultrax75
I have a slight problem. Everytime I change my latencies and click on the apply on startup and restart I get "failed to load driver" and the latencies aren't changed....

Anyone know a trick to help me out?
I had the same problem, and then I realized that I`m trying to run second instance of a program. Maybe it is in your startup heavier then it should be?

__________________________________________________ _____________
Sorry, this is something Off topic but really important. I thought this tool will solve it:

I just hate NFS hot pursuit 2! I have never played that game and I own it from the day it`s released. I thought I`ll play it when I upgrade my machine enough to go really smooth . Then I had 512 ram and Ti4200.
Well, it DOESN`T run even now!!! Im rreally mad. There`s unbeliveable stutter there, it is totally unenjoyable and I`m not talking about ultra high resolutions. I wonder does anybody here have the cure?
   
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  (#121)
nealh
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Default 01-17-2005, 03:33 | posts: 40

what about the nonagp settings...how do we determine safe changes..I really hate trial and error on this
   
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  (#122)
Toxic Worrier
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Default 01-17-2005, 03:35 | posts: 938 | Location: Middle Georgia

Voi~~~ I seem to remember hearing how NFS Hot pursuit and XP just refuse to get along....The newest underground 2 is a killer game.....
   
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  (#123)
Toxic Worrier
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Default 01-17-2005, 03:40 | posts: 938 | Location: Middle Georgia

Nealh the newbie......welcome, LoL, but you need to post your specs. or at the least let these wonderfully helpfull gurus know what videocard you have.
Trial and error....thats gonna get you in trouble bigtime. Just leave em at 32 and if the Video card is any higher than 128, set it to 128. don't bother with anything else. good luck
   
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  (#124)
RicardoMPX
 
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Default 01-17-2005, 20:19 | posts: n/a

PCI Latency is defined as "the maximum length of time the device has to terminate the transfer and to relinquish the control, when there is another device requesting the control of the PCI Bus." The time is measured in bus cycles. Setting this value smaller allows better multitasking on PCI bus, when multiple devices are requesting the bus. However, smaller value will also decreases the throughput of the bus as there is some overhead occured for each transfer to start.
   
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  (#125)
RicardoMPX
 
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Default 01-17-2005, 20:25 | posts: n/a

The reason behind this phenomenum is unclear. Maybe the graphics card needs to send something to memory frequently so the program can determine the state of the current rendering and put the next set of data to the graphics card's texture memory. As this happens, AGP needs to be turned around.... from writing to graphics card to reading from graphics card. If the PCI latency is high, the delay for that read is long, so the program is stalled. If this is the case, then changing from AGP to PCIe will help and a speed up can be seen. This is because PCIe has dedicated channel for each direction of transfer, eliminating bus-turnaround and the fight for bus. However I am not a designer of graphics hardware I can't not tell which causes this phenomenum. It is just purely my speculation.
   
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