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Only Intruder
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Default 04-23-2017, 11:47 | posts: 727 | Location: UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryu5uzaku View Post
RX 470 is no die shrunk 380x. O_o what are you on about even if it has the same amount of shaders and the like it does not mean it's a die shrink. Tonga aka 380x is gcn 1.2 same as Fiji cards. That is kind of like saying the 7970 is the same as 380x even tho it ain't.
No no you misunderstood, I was trying to explain albeit badly that the 470 is the successor to the 380X with AMD taking the Tonga design and improving it for efficiency making GCN1.3 or GCN4 whichever way you want to call it.
   
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OnnA
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Lightbulb 04-23-2017, 11:52 | posts: 2,681 | Location: HolyWater Village

New is new, so:

5xxx
6xxx
Thaiti - 7xxx aka GCN 1.0
Hawaii - 2xx aka GCN 1.1
Tonga - aka GCN 1.2
Fiji - Aka GCN 1.3 with add. Features + NextGen HBM
and GCN 4.0 (1.4) aka Polaris build for FinFet 14nm + add. Features
and VEGA as GCN 5.0 (1.5) it packs so many Features, so we need whole article to cover it up -> Performance wise: HBM Cache, Color Compresion v.5 ? , Primitive Discard Accelerator v.2 etc.

Then you have same for nV (but we need some nV knowing guy to tell us )

But AFAIK:
480 and 580 was almost the same chip
Then 680 comes, then Upgraded to 780
Then Maxwell 9xx (it has major change: Tile Based Renderer) and Die shrink -> Pascal 1xxx
NextGen will be Volta with GDDR5X then HBM_2.... correct me if im wrong

But in nV you always get also Titan based Big CHips: Yes 1080Ti can easily swallow ~300tW
So you got 980 then Titan and 980Ti as cut down ver. of Titan (similar to Intels HEDT at 1000$ bracket )

Lets us hope Vega will get 220tW at 1400-1500MHz... (but frankly it's not that Era Yet so propably we can have ~250-270tW)

Last edited by OnnA; 04-23-2017 at 15:13.
   
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Anarion
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Default 04-23-2017, 12:55 | posts: 12,812 | Location: Finland

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryu5uzaku View Post
It was faster yes. "Instead, the NV17 would basically be a GeForce2 MX with an improved memory controller, multisample AA unit, and updated video features; another way of looking at it would be the GeForce3 without two pixel pipelines or DirectX 8 compliance." ye it's a tad more then rebrand but not much.

Having way higher clocks helped for sure. But anyway not that straight rebrand but same arch none the less. With some tweaks.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/875/6
Basically equal situation to minor GCN architecture update.
   
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Default 04-23-2017, 17:35 | posts: 6,354

I hope that our hearts have settled on the fact that Vega probably won't be faster than the Ti. Not initially at least. I have no problem with that, if the price is fair.
   
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warlord
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Default 04-23-2017, 18:39 | posts: 616

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrMinisterGR View Post
I hope that our hearts have settled on the fact that Vega probably won't be faster than the Ti. Not initially at least. I have no problem with that, if the price is fair.
It will be neither faster than refreshed "1080"+.
   
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Default 04-23-2017, 18:47 | posts: 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by warlord View Post
It will be neither faster than refreshed "1080"+.
Didn't some vega card beat 1080 on Doom @4k? See that's the thing, we don't know whether that was "top end" card, or the "second" card.
   
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Default 04-23-2017, 19:06 | posts: 494

Why don't we put speculation aside and wait for some proper hardware reviews?
   
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Default 04-23-2017, 19:24 | posts: 7,808 | Location: FLA,USA

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Originally Posted by Chastity View Post
Why don't we put speculation aside and wait for some proper hardware reviews?
Might want to read the title of the thread.
   
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Default 04-23-2017, 19:51 | posts: 7,808 | Location: FLA,USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by OnnA View Post
New is new, so:

5xxx
6xxx
Thaiti - 7xxx aka GCN 1.0
Hawaii - 2xx aka GCN 1.1
Tonga - aka GCN 1.2
Fiji - Aka GCN 1.3 with add. Features + NextGen HBM
and GCN 4.0 (1.4) aka Polaris build for FinFet 14nm + add. Features
and VEGA as GCN 5.0 (1.5) it packs so many Features, so we need whole article to cover it up -> Performance wise: HBM Cache, Color Compresion v.5 ? , Primitive Discard Accelerator v.2 etc.

Then you have same for nV (but we need some nV knowing guy to tell us )

But AFAIK:
480 and 580 was almost the same chip
Then 680 comes, then Upgraded to 780
Then Maxwell 9xx (it has major change: Tile Based Renderer) and Die shrink -> Pascal 1xxx
NextGen will be Volta with GDDR5X then HBM_2.... correct me if im wrong

But in nV you always get also Titan based Big CHips: Yes 1080Ti can easily swallow ~300tW
So you got 980 then Titan and 980Ti as cut down ver. of Titan (similar to Intels HEDT at 1000$ bracket )

Lets us hope Vega will get 220tW at 1400-1500MHz... (but frankly it's not that Era Yet so propably we can have ~250-270tW)
580 was basically the same GPU as 480 but without the problems.
680 became the 770. Besides that there were actually no rebrands in the 7xx cards even the 770 got an updated reference PCB and GPU boost 2.0. Maxwell was supposed to be on 20nm IIRC but that was a cluster so it had to be respun as 28nm. That is why Maxwell cards carry a 2 not a 1 as the first number.

The reason the Titan cards exist is because there has been such slow responses from AMD. Volta is actually 2 years late and Pascal was never supposed to happen but here we are.


To get the Tflops that AMD have claimed Vega at 4096CU needs 1,475MHz as they claim 12.5 Tflop SP32. Respun Polaris shows us AMD can make silicon go that fast but it's gonna be hungry and hot unless they figured something out.


Edit: sorry for the double post
   
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user1
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Default 04-23-2017, 20:49 | posts: 315

Quote:
Originally Posted by Only Intruder View Post
No no you misunderstood, I was trying to explain albeit badly that the 470 is the successor to the 380X with AMD taking the Tonga design and improving it for efficiency making GCN1.3 or GCN4 whichever way you want to call it.
I think it would be a good thing to clarify what die shrink means,

An example of a classic silicon die shrink is the G92 v G92B
the design is the same but the g92 is on 65nm vs 55nm on the g92b

There are also are revisions and/or die shrinks such as the g80 - g92
g80 has an older video encode/decode hw, pcie 1.1 and is on 90nm , but the core design is pretty much identical.

I would put the differences between the fiji and tonga uarchs in this league of type of revision


then there are what I would call major revisions, i would consider the gt200 core to be a major revision of the tesla uarch of which the g80-g92b are part of.
I would put tonga - polaris here as would I put hawaii - fiji.


And finally what I would call a uarch Rework, which is where I would assume to put vega(though it remains to be seen exactly how extreme the differences are)

An equivalent nvidia example of a uarch rework would be tesla to fermi in my opinion

This of course is a Simplification, this is not the complete picture but it should give a rough idea of what how to categorize these types of differences

Gotta thank nvidia for making so many g80 revsions makes finding examples easy.
   
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flow
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Default 04-23-2017, 22:15 | posts: 945 | Location: Holland

In the end of the day consumers want faster cards. If the upcoming RX580 equals the RX480 which in turn is about the same as the 390, which is not much faster than the 290, then there is little improvement on the gaming front.
Most users wont care about power usage and die shrinks.

So sure, lets wait and see reviews when those cards are available. But if they aren't much faster, then these rebrands aren't improving things either for us, the users.
All in all I don't have a good feeling about this.
   
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Ryu5uzaku
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Default 04-24-2017, 08:45 | posts: 6,401 | Location: Finland

Quote:
Originally Posted by warlord View Post
It will be neither faster than refreshed "1080"+.
That would be insanely weak. To be honest. Fury X is not that far from 1080. If the 1.5ghz clocks and all of the improvements only accounted to 1080+ hahaha. Just scrap the gpu side.
   
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OnnA
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Lightbulb 04-24-2017, 09:31 | posts: 2,681 | Location: HolyWater Village

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryu5uzaku View Post
That would be insanely weak. To be honest. Fury X is not that far from 1080. If the 1.5ghz clocks and all of the improvements only accounted to 1080+ hahaha. Just scrap the gpu side.
Yes it seems as an logical assumption

1, 2 ,3

For 1080Ti/TitanXp levels we need 1450-1550MHz on Big Vega
I still hope for some hudge step forward (look at ZEN )
But it's more ATI than AMD so lets Hope they can deliver some VEGA
YES ATI is more than capable (we got History to look at)

Last edited by OnnA; 04-24-2017 at 09:35.
   
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OnnA
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Cool 04-24-2017, 10:24 | posts: 2,681 | Location: HolyWater Village

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loophole35 View Post
580 was basically the same GPU as 480 but without the problems.
680 became the 770. Besides that there were actually no rebrands in the 7xx cards even the 770 got an updated reference PCB and GPU boost 2.0. Maxwell was supposed to be on 20nm IIRC but that was a cluster so it had to be respun as 28nm. That is why Maxwell cards carry a 2 not a 1 as the first number.

The reason the Titan cards exist is because there has been such slow responses from AMD. Volta is actually 2 years late and Pascal was never supposed to happen but here we are.


To get the Tflops that AMD have claimed Vega at 4096CU needs 1,475MHz as they claim 12.5 Tflop SP32. Respun Polaris shows us AMD can make silicon go that fast but it's gonna be hungry and hot unless they figured something out.


Edit: sorry for the double post
Yup

 Click to show spoiler



-> https://developer.nvidia.com/sites/d...mipipeline.png
   
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Denial
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Default 04-24-2017, 13:05 | posts: 10,576 | Location: Terra Firma

Idk, I think Volta simply got split into two architectures for whatever reason. It's main feature was stacked DRAM and that's done with Pascal. I think Nvidia bit off more than it wanted to chew with what it originally had planned for Volta, so they took the die shrink/hbm/nvlink and split it out. The rest of the changes are more likely architectural stuff that they didn't want to implement with the die shrink.

You also have to remember that Nvidia isn't only competing with AMD with it's GPUs - on the compute side you have Intel and even companies like Google who are developing their own Deep Learning devices (although Google's is very workload specific). AMD is facing similar competition.

I think Vega is going to be pretty competitive - trading blows with the Ti in DX12 titles. AMD shouldn't have a problem competing with Pascal directly - the problem is going to be the lost sales between now and when it actually ships. I'm really surprised they haven't been showing off more technical stuff about Vega to disrupt some Nvidia sales.
   
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Default 04-24-2017, 13:11 | posts: 99

Quote:
Originally Posted by flow View Post
In the end of the day consumers want faster cards. If the upcoming RX580 equals the RX480 which in turn is about the same as the 390, which is not much faster than the 290, then there is little improvement on the gaming front.
This is one of the reasons why i haven't upgraded my graphics card
   
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warlord
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Default 04-24-2017, 13:55 | posts: 616

The problem with AMD these days surely is we have not great breakthroughs in performance department. 290/x, 390/x, 480, 580, almost near eachother.

The days since hd 5XXX are long gone. It was soemthing new. It resulted for failing tessellation performance then, because it was a purely new architecture. After HD 5000 series, red is like trolling us, it took them years to improve tessellation and again not by much they still need until 2017 to control it via ccc But they are still best bang for buck. That's why many of us love ATI.

I hope I'll get a true replacement for my 390X next year finally.
   
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PrMinisterGR
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Default 04-24-2017, 19:46 | posts: 6,354

Quote:
Originally Posted by warlord View Post
It will be neither faster than refreshed "1080"+.
I can't see how it won't be faster than the 1080, to be completely honest. Depending on the efficiency they manage with the new tessellator and the L2/tiled rasterization, they might actually get to Titan XP territory.
   
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Ryu5uzaku
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Default 04-24-2017, 20:25 | posts: 6,401 | Location: Finland

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrMinisterGR View Post
I can't see how it won't be faster than the 1080, to be completely honest. Depending on the efficiency they manage with the new tessellator and the L2/tiled rasterization, they might actually get to Titan XP territory.
Considering there should be 37% boost in clock speeds that should translate to 1080 performance alone if they never did anything else to the damn thing.

But to me all points it to being closer to 1080 ti then 1080.
   
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Denial
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Default 04-24-2017, 22:03 | posts: 10,576 | Location: Terra Firma

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryu5uzaku View Post
Considering there should be 37% boost in clock speeds that should translate to 1080 performance alone if they never did anything else to the damn thing.

But to me all points it to being closer to 1080 ti then 1080.
Yah, they already said the MI25 is 12.5Tflops - given 4096 cores (been rumored multiple times) that's roughly 1.5ghz clockspeed which is perfectly doable and that's for the workstation card, which is often underclocked.

It's definitely going to trade blows with the Ti, which is probably Nvidia did the whole Titan X(P) shift up thing.
   
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Default 04-24-2017, 23:31 | posts: 305 | Location: Canada

I was shocked to hear Elric over at tech of tomorrow say that VEGA is now being delayed until the first quarter of 2018. I seriously hope this is not true, but the look on his face the entire video is really telling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJ1xr-H6eLU
   
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Only Intruder
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Default 04-24-2017, 23:39 | posts: 727 | Location: UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by DW75 View Post
I was shocked to hear Elric over at tech of tomorrow say that VEGA is now being delayed until the first quarter of 2018. I seriously hope this is not true, but the look on his face the entire video is really telling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJ1xr-H6eLU
This was posted earlier on in the thread and the conclusion was that he's talking bollocks.
   
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Denial
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Default 04-24-2017, 23:39 | posts: 10,576 | Location: Terra Firma

Quote:
Originally Posted by DW75 View Post
I was shocked to hear Elric over at tech of tomorrow say that VEGA is now being delayed until the first quarter of 2018. I seriously hope this is not true, but the look on his face the entire video is really telling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJ1xr-H6eLU
This was already discussed. He is wrong. Also he didn't say it was delayed he just gave a date.
   
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Default Yesterday, 02:04 | posts: 646 | Location: Out There!

a news item over at that wcc..etc site tells about AMD announcing officially it is coming this quarter, of which we are one month in already. so Soon !

Can't wait to hear some details though ^^



Most half decent conjecture points at late May or more likely early June time release

Last edited by Humanoid_1; Yesterday at 02:09.
   
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OnnA
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Lightbulb Yesterday, 17:40 | posts: 2,681 | Location: HolyWater Village

ATI/AMD: Radeon RX Vega Performance Compared To GeForce GTX 1080 Ti and Titan Xp Looks Really Nice


AMD has revealed an interesting detail on the performance of their upcoming Radeon RX Vega series graphics cards. According to team red, the Radeon RX Vega would be very competitive against NVIDIA based enthusiast graphics cards.

In an AMA session regarding Ryzen CPUs with Tomshardware, AMDís Desktop CPU marketing manager revealed an interesting tidbit on the performance of Vega based graphics card. The AMD representative revealed that the card is being internally tested and the performance they have seen is very good when compared to the competition.

According to Don, the Radeon RX Vega performance compared to the likes of NVIDIAís GeForce GTX 1080 Ti and the Titan Xp looks really nice. This sounds great as Vega will be putting AMD back in the enthusiast market after a long wait since the Radeon R9 Fury X. The Radeon R9 Fury X was launched two years back and many users have been waiting for a new high-end graphics card from AMDís RTG. Hereís the entire quote from the AMA:

" PandaNation: Why are FreeSync monitors so much cheaper than their G-Sync counterparts? I know you wonít be able to say much, but how does Vega compare to the Nvidia GeForce GTX 1080 Ti and the Nvidia Titan Xp? Big fan of AMD, thinking of doing a Mini-ITX Ryzen 5 build. Keep up the good work!

DON WOLIGROSKI: FreeSync is cheaper because itís an open standard. In many cases a panel manufacturer can make a FreeSync panel by changing their monitorís firmware and having it meet the spec. For G-Sync, Nvidia charges a licensing fee. Because of this differentiation alone, I think the inevitable future is FreeSync.

Vega performance compared to the Geforce GTX 1080 Ti and the Titan Xp looks really nice."

There have been rumors saying that the Radeon RX Vega graphics card is just as fast as GTX 1080 but this bit confirms that it will be more than that. It seems very likely that RX Vega is a going to compete against NVIDIA in the flagship enthusiast product department in both price and performance. The Titan Xp is fast compared to the 1080 Ti but not by a huge margin. In fact, custom models of the 1080 Ti do end up being on par or faster than the Titan Xp so we can see a 1080 Ti competitor based on Vega matching the 1080 Ti and also coming close to the Titan Xp at a lower price.
   
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