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  (#51)
snowdweller
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Default 07-18-2012, 16:48 | posts: 492 | Location: Sydney

So at the end of the day in SLI does this make a difference/can it be changed in SLI or is alternate frame rendering the same thing?

Also if you can't see tearing your either blind or lucky to have your FPS match your Hz a very big majority of the time.
   
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  (#52)
rewt
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Default 07-18-2012, 18:27 | posts: 1,245 | Location: Americas

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdweller View Post
So at the end of the day in SLI does this make a difference
Don't know bro. I stopped building SLI rigs ever since GeForce 6. You could do some benchmarking to find out.
   
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  (#53)
tweakpower
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Default 07-18-2012, 19:36 | posts: 932 | Location: Serbia

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowdweller View Post
So at the end of the day in SLI does this make a difference/can it be changed in SLI or is alternate frame rendering the same thing?

Also if you can't see tearing your either blind or lucky to have your FPS match your Hz a very big majority of the time.
Hope someone who actually knows will answer.

For tearing thing, did you ever used CRT monitor, why you talk about things you don't know? There is no tearing on mine monitor when FPS is even double or triple than refresh rate (100Hz - 300FPS), what is so hard to understand here?
   
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  (#54)
rewt
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Default 07-18-2012, 21:40 | posts: 1,245 | Location: Americas

When it comes to screen tearing or input lag, ignorance is bliss. LCDs certainly had a big problem with tearing since day one. CRTs also tear, but usually not as noticeable.
   
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  (#55)
Tastic
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Default 07-18-2012, 22:24 | posts: 14

Quote:
Originally Posted by inplayruns View Post
Yes you do if you don't stand tearing.

The smoothness VSync gives is unparalleled, I'd much rather deal with the so called input "lag" than to deal with tearing.
If you don't mind VSync, then continue using it . Settings come down to a certain level of preference....

Now, on the real, VSync is a horrible setting to use you if you care to play FPS's more competitively. I'm not going to preach about all the cons of using VSync in FPS's, but it introduces more problems than it resolves. To name a few: Video lag (input lag or perceived input lag, delay, whatever you want to call it), mouse lag, unnatural movement, etc. You will be a step behind those of whom not using VSync as in FPS's, every moment and millisecond matters, especially in fast twitch shooters such as the Quake game series.

As for screen tearing, this is only partially true. Just because you don't use VSync, it doesn't mean you will have to endure screen tearing. There are a plethora of different settings you can use to reduce or completely eliminate this annoyance. Personally, I believe screen tearing has most to do with your drivers. If you deal with screen tearing, try a different driver-set for your GPU, but remember to use driver-sweeper if you change out your GPU drivers.

-T
   
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  (#56)
Tastic
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Default 07-18-2012, 22:32 | posts: 14

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prophet View Post
Im not, I just think that if you dont know your stuff you shouldīnt be talking.

Btw, there is no pre rendered frames with opengl. Or at least you cant change it through the drivers. You can confirm this in the nvcpl.
Prophet,

I agree with your statement as I have researched this in the past.... but I always run into discrepancies regarding pre-rendered frames and opengl games.

I primarily play Quake Live which is opengl based, and I have tested pre-rendered frames from 0-3, where there are noticeable differences between 0, 1, and 3 (0 being the ideal setting).

If pre-rendered frames do not affect opengl games, why does it affect Quake Live when changing pre-rendered frames, an opengl game? This is not only my perception, but the perception of the QLive community when discussing pre-rendered frames. Anything but 0 (1 for few) is unacceptable as QLive is a competitive fast twitch FPS.

Some claim this to be a placebo effect, but I just don't believe this to be the case. There is a noticeable difference.

Your input?

-T
   
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  (#57)
rewt
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Default 07-18-2012, 22:40 | posts: 1,245 | Location: Americas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tastic View Post
If pre-rendered frames do not affect opengl games
But it does, as I mentioned earlier.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Prophet
I just think that if you dont know your stuff you shouldīnt be talking.
Ironic isn't it?

Last edited by rewt; 07-18-2012 at 23:13.
   
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  (#58)
Prophet
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Default 07-18-2012, 23:23 | posts: 776 | Location: Heaven

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tastic View Post
Prophet,

I agree with your statement as I have researched this in the past.... but I always run into discrepancies regarding pre-rendered frames and opengl games.

I primarily play Quake Live which is opengl based, and I have tested pre-rendered frames from 0-3, where there are noticeable differences between 0, 1, and 3 (0 being the ideal setting).

If pre-rendered frames do not affect opengl games, why does it affect Quake Live when changing pre-rendered frames, an opengl game? This is not only my perception, but the perception of the QLive community when discussing pre-rendered frames. Anything but 0 (1 for few) is unacceptable as QLive is a competitive fast twitch FPS.

Some claim this to be a placebo effect, but I just don't believe this to be the case. There is a noticeable difference.

Your input?

-T
Well if what rewt says is correct it seems different driver versions deal with it differently. I recently started a discussion on the premier ql forum, esreality about pre-rendered frames. Consesus there was pre-r f wasnt affecting opengl, and thats what it says in my driver, 296.x. You can check for yourself about the 300-series drivers because I guess rewt wants us to be as delusional and him since he didnīt provide any evidence. Please let us know (screenshot).

Placebo is a funny thing. People who think placebo is a placebo have a placebo effect. Arton Senna, a well known F1 driver was known for 'knowing his car and being able to give correct feedback in order to improve it'. That means that even among the worlds finest drivers he was able to make distinctions that others couldnīt. About 10 years ago people where talking about how many hz you could detect. This was just 1-4 years before flatscreens became common. Actually must have been 99-01 or something. Anyway I could easily see the difference up to 135-140 hz, while consensus was that noone could see a difference above 75-80 hz or so. Then a couple of years later the us millitary did some studies and they said ~110 hz or so iirc. Under hypnosis if you have like sizling flesh and show someone you have a redhot iron. You then blindfold them, and tell them you will burn them. You touch them with a piece of ice. They will get a burnmark, if they are convinced them they were touched with a redhot iron. Placebo makes it real.

The point is this: 1.) Placebo is a real effect. You always have a placebo effect whatever you believe (like rewt for example, he says his info comes from himself but thatīs not correct, he got it from somewhere), or whether you not believe.

2.) There are people out there able to detect smaller differences / distinctions when it comes to this stuff. If you feel the difference its real. Even if it would only be placebo, its still just as real. You know a lot of the 'happy'pills (sorry cant remember the chlinical name for them atm) have only a few percent difference between the actice compounds and the placebos.

One guy somewhere claimed that the difference between 0 and 1 pre rendered was 5-15 ms. I can easily feel the difference in bfbc2, and if youcan feel it in ql, I believe you.

People like to throw the placebo name around without understanding it. My tip is to just ignore them.

Last edited by Prophet; 07-18-2012 at 23:28.
   
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  (#59)
rewt
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Default 07-18-2012, 23:25 | posts: 1,245 | Location: Americas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prophet View Post
I guess rewt wants us to be as delusional and him since he didnīt provide any evidence. Please let us know (screenshot).
Plenty of evidence above. Use the scroll bar on your browser or mouse. Next time, learn to take my word for it.
   
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  (#60)
Prophet
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Default 07-18-2012, 23:37 | posts: 776 | Location: Heaven

Quote:
Originally Posted by rewt View Post
Plenty of evidence above. Use the scroll bar on your browser or mouse. Next time, learn to take my word for it.
I could out plenty of facts you got wrong. I can think of at least 2 things that you said in this thread alone that are incorrect. Your word means less than nothing to me. Not only because you want me to take your word for it, but because you think you are 100% correct. Noone is 100% correct and people who think they are are in my experience more delusional than most. In fact I have only skimmed your posts briefly, its simply too much work for me to filter the correct from the incorrect.
   
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  (#61)
Corrupt^
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Default 07-19-2012, 00:28 | posts: 6,586 | Location: Belgium

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prophet View Post
There are people out there able to detect smaller differences / distinctions when it comes to this stuff.

People like to throw the placebo name around without understanding it. My tip is to just ignore them.
My whole idea about everything input lag related is that sometimes people are to focused on "the human eye".
Sure an image is smooth at 25 fps but the gameplay isn't. It's called input lag. Even if they eyes can't see, you're moving around your mouse, you're sending feedback with another sense besides your eyes.
As soon as these 2 (sight and touch) feel "out of sync" it's usually input lag. I'm liking the F1 pilot comparison. Just like the experienced F1 pilot, an experienced FPS player can spot differences in input lag very fast.

I even notice the difference between 120 Hz and 60 Hz on a desktop under 10 seconds (usually due to ghosting on the mouse cursor).

So the nay sayers need to learn how to think outside the box for once:

1) It's not because you can't sense it, others are talking bs
2) Stop thinking with "just sight"

I personally don't think the human sight is very amazing, but I do believe experienced people can sense minute small differences in things when using more of our senses.

Also, in one of the video interviews from Rage, John Carmack mentioned that as FPS increases, input lag decreases. Hence why you'll still see quake players using fps well beyond their refreshrate if they can.

Every competitive FPS player will condemn VSYNC as the mother of all evil since it adds a massive amount of input lag.

Last edited by Corrupt^; 07-19-2012 at 00:31.
   
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  (#62)
rewt
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Default 07-19-2012, 01:15 | posts: 1,245 | Location: Americas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prophet View Post
Your word means less than nothing to me.
Likewise, because all you have done so far is post nonsense and start fights. You have provided no valuable contribution to this thread, so do everyone a favor and never visit this topic again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bishi View Post
He's always like that with the mightier than thou attitude and has a stick up his ass, just ignore him.
Right on, you've pretty much summed it up. Putting on ignore.

Last edited by rewt; 07-19-2012 at 01:21.
   
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  (#63)
Cyberdyne
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Default 07-19-2012, 02:23 | posts: 2,927 | Location: USA, Pennsylvania

Reading this, I felt that at first I would be agreeing with Prophet.
I don't though. You come off instead as a pseudo intellectual.
Your comments on the placebo effect are comical. True, since we are all human we are all potentially subject to it, but facts doesn't change facts.

Last edited by Cyberdyne; 07-19-2012 at 02:27.
   
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  (#64)
Brendruis
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Default 07-19-2012, 03:56 | posts: 1,242 | Location: Melbourne, FL

Quote:
Originally Posted by rewt View Post
Interesting results. I haven't touched this setting in several graphics card generations. I thought the default setting was 3?
   
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tweakpower
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Default 07-19-2012, 07:46 | posts: 932 | Location: Serbia

Quote:
Originally Posted by rewt View Post
But it does, as I mentioned earlier.



Ironic isn't it?
I took your side here, but not because of this picture. If you say there is a difference, me, for one, have no reason to not believe you, since i had some experience with OpenGL games as Doom3, Prey, Quake 4 etc.

But this graph shows something different for me, if i understand it well, orange is 0, red is 1, green is 2, and so on.... As you can see from the graph, orange (0) is always close to green (2), and that means (for me) that when you select 0, driver default it to 2, with small room for error in measurement (small dif. in graph).

Long story short, some people have better reflexes than others. Better reflex do not necessarily means better at game itself. Sometimes, especially in games (not only PC, also consoles) better reflex can introduce more problems than help. So, at the end, it's how you prefer, or how you feel, and if you can't feel difference, good for you, if you can, deal with it, none of CORPS, chip makers, game makers even etc. will not waste their time for small percent of people, because time = money.

No need to ignore oposite opinions really. If nothing, it is really interesting to see all sides.

Last edited by tweakpower; 07-19-2012 at 07:48.
   
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  (#66)
Prophet
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Default 07-19-2012, 10:06 | posts: 776 | Location: Heaven

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyberdyne View Post
Reading this, I felt that at first I would be agreeing with Prophet.
I don't though. You come off instead as a pseudo intellectual.
Your comments on the placebo effect are comical. True, since we are all human we are all potentially subject to it, but facts doesn't change facts.
Comical? Please point out one fact I wrote thats not correct and unlike rewt support it with some type of evidence. Just cause you dont understand placebo doesnt mean it doesnt work like I wrote. You are just doing the same as him so far. You sir, are the victicm of herd mentality.
   
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  (#67)
Prophet
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Default 07-19-2012, 10:12 | posts: 776 | Location: Heaven

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrupt^ View Post
My whole idea about everything input lag related is that sometimes people are to focused on "the human eye".
Sure an image is smooth at 25 fps but the gameplay isn't. It's called input lag. Even if they eyes can't see, you're moving around your mouse, you're sending feedback with another sense besides your eyes.
As soon as these 2 (sight and touch) feel "out of sync" it's usually input lag. I'm liking the F1 pilot comparison. Just like the experienced F1 pilot, an experienced FPS player can spot differences in input lag very fast.

I even notice the difference between 120 Hz and 60 Hz on a desktop under 10 seconds (usually due to ghosting on the mouse cursor).

So the nay sayers need to learn how to think outside the box for once:

1) It's not because you can't sense it, others are talking bs
2) Stop thinking with "just sight"

I personally don't think the human sight is very amazing, but I do believe experienced people can sense minute small differences in things when using more of our senses.

Also, in one of the video interviews from Rage, John Carmack mentioned that as FPS increases, input lag decreases. Hence why you'll still see quake players using fps well beyond their refreshrate if they can.

Every competitive FPS player will condemn VSYNC as the mother of all evil since it adds a massive amount of input lag.
Yea its the same as always, when new information is brought to the table people are not acting on the information itself but according do what assumptions they have. So if someone plays with vsync and they feel its good and you tell them it brings input lag they (well not everyone obviously just most) tend to react in the negative.

If you are curious about why you get faster reactions and increased sensitivity to input lag etc, you might want to check out myelin. Basically it insulates nerves in the brain the more you use that nerv the more myelin is embedding that nerv making the nerv impulse faster.
   
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Cyberdyne
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Default 07-19-2012, 14:15 | posts: 2,927 | Location: USA, Pennsylvania

I know I know. No one here could possibly be as smart or smarter than you.
What you said reads as if since we are all possibly subject to the placebo effect, nothing we say can possibly be factual. (Or at least anything anyone ELSE says but yourself).
And it not only reads like that, but you act the part pretty well too.

>for example, when showed the graph (which I have to assume is correct, but changes nothing if it's not) you had to refuse to believe it, and had to agree for other reasons. "My experience with this, my feelings about that, " The graph was fine and all, but the fat lady sings when "I" agree on my terms
   
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  (#69)
rewt
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Default 07-19-2012, 15:55 | posts: 1,245 | Location: Americas

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brendruis View Post
Interesting results. I haven't touched this setting in several graphics card generations. I thought the default setting was 3?
2 for OpenGL

Quote:
Originally Posted by tweakpower View Post
I took your side here, but not because of this picture. If you say there is a difference, me, for one, have no reason to not believe you, since i had some experience with OpenGL games as Doom3, Prey, Quake 4 etc.

But this graph shows something different for me, if i understand it well, orange is 0, red is 1, green is 2, and so on.... As you can see from the graph, orange (0) is always close to green (2), and that means (for me) that when you select 0, driver default it to 2, with small room for error in measurement (small dif. in graph).
Thanks

It seems 1 is the minimum value for both OpenGL and Direct3D in r300 drivers and above. Zero equals driver/app controlled.

Last edited by rewt; 07-19-2012 at 15:58.
   
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rewt
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Default 07-19-2012, 16:16 | posts: 1,245 | Location: Americas

You can do some experimenting of your own with the following tool.

Notice how the Nvidia driver tends to override application RenderAhead values higher than the driver setting, but not lower. This is in part because of the way DirectX and drivers manage the command queue as I mentioned earlier.

Quote:
---------------------------------------------------------
·: D3D9 antilag v1.01 :·
---------------------------------------------------------

D3D9 antilag helps to reduce input lag (esp. with the mouse)
in Direct3D 9 games by limiting the amount of frames that
are rendered ahead by the video card. It can also limit
the framerate for smoother gameplay and reduced cpu/gpu
utilization.

To install, put the d3d9.dll and antilag.cfg to the game
executable directory.

The antilag.cfg contains two configuration parameters:

RenderAheadLimit: This is the amount of frames that D3D9
is allowed to 'render ahead'. A value of 1 means that the
render queue is flushed immediately when a frame is ready.
This provides minimal latency, but can cause a significant
performance drop. A value of 2 allows one frame to be in
the queue, which provides a good compromise between low
latency and good performance. Setting of 0 will disable
the feature.

FPSlimit: This setting will limit the framerate to the
rate set. In cases where the framerate is fluctuating alot
limiting the framerate to a lower value (ie. 35) can provide
smoother gameplay feel. It can also be used to reduce the
cpu/gpu usage, which is helpful for laptop users.


During gameplay, holding down the application key* will
disable the render ahead limit. You can use this to test
the antilag functionality. (While moving the mouse in game,
press and hold the app key and compare the apparent latency)

* The application key is the key located between the right
ctrl and windows key.


---------------------------------------------------------
credits
---------------------------------------------------------

made by Kegetys, http://www.kegetys.net


---------------------------------------------------------
license & disclaimer
---------------------------------------------------------

You are permitted to install and use this software for
personal entertainment purposes only. Any commercial,
military or educational use is strictly forbidden without
permission from the author.

You are free to distribute this software as you wish, as
long as it is kept 100% free of charge, it is not modified
in any way and this readme file is distributed with it.

The author takes no responsibility for any damages this
program may cause, use at your own risk.

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Last edited by rewt; 07-19-2012 at 17:25.
   
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[Arnold]
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Default 07-20-2012, 09:10 | posts: 30

Quote:
Originally Posted by inplayruns View Post
So as a BF3 player with VSync enabled, what would be the best setting? BF3's default is 3 IIRC.
For BF3 there is an ingame setting called RenderDevice.ForceRenderAheadLimit with values of -1, 0, 1, 2 and 3. According to what is known the value of -1 uses the GPU driver setting, 0 disables the feature, 1-3 set the prerendered frames. Use this setting on the ingame console or write it into a user generated "user.cfg" inside the application folder for permanent setting.

Playing on a 120Hz TFT with a single GTX 680 I found my solution in using NVIDIAs Adaptive VSync 1/2. That way I get a stable vsynced 60 fps on a 120Hz refresh rate with no perceptible input lag at all using a prerendered frame setting of 1. As long as I don't go for a SLI setup to have a steady 120 fps that is a pretty decent setup for me.
   
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snowdweller
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Default 07-20-2012, 11:32 | posts: 492 | Location: Sydney

Quote:
Originally Posted by tweakpower View Post
Hope someone who actually knows will answer.

For tearing thing, did you ever used CRT monitor, why you talk about things you don't know? There is no tearing on mine monitor when FPS is even double or triple than refresh rate (100Hz - 300FPS), what is so hard to understand here?
Well when your playing games like Solitare yes 300+ fps probably won't give tearing as the game is sending out alot more frames than the refresh hence you will see a complete picture 99% of the time. Compared to say Crysis @ 150fps with 120hz screen. Did I ever "used" a CRT the answer is yes unfortunately I had a 21" which was not fun to carry around to LANs.
   
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Brendruis
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Default 07-20-2012, 11:39 | posts: 1,242 | Location: Melbourne, FL

There is tearing on CRTs it isn't unique to LCDs... it's just that a CRT you can raise the refresh rate higher so it is much less noticeable. You can get the same effect by buying a 120Hz LCD these days
   
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Default 07-20-2012, 14:16 | posts: 1,099

Its advisable to play with 1-2 values of prerender limit , because all the CPU intense game is going to spoil your consistent frame rate otherwise.

Also there isn't much loss with 1 or 2 frames ahead, if the game is running at more than 30 FPS..that would translate into 33.34 or 66.67 ms video render latency, which is purely acceptable for most utilization.
   
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Prophet
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Default 07-20-2012, 14:34 | posts: 776 | Location: Heaven

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiga View Post
Its advisable to play with 1-2 values of prerender limit , because all the CPU intense game is going to spoil your consistent frame rate otherwise.

Also there isn't much loss with 1 or 2 frames ahead, if the game is running at more than 30 FPS..that would translate into 33.34 or 66.67 ms video render latency, which is purely acceptable for most utilization.

I have 140 fps consistently in the game of my choice atm. Nothing spoiled there.


Also I cannot tell you how much I disagree with 34-70 ms latency being acceptable. I can accept some lag in game where instant reactions dont matter a lot. Mmorpgs for example. But even there 70 ms would be a lot. In fps, which is what I play mostly, more than whats absolutely nessecary is simply unacceptable. Also Iīd like you to confirm the numbers if possible.
   
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flip-queue, input lag, pre-rendered frames, prerendered

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