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rewt
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Default 07-17-2012, 19:22 | posts: 1,245 | Location: Americas

Quote:
Originally Posted by tweakpower View Post
Yes, but with 1 it is about same as 3
It can't be generalized as such, as performance will vary depending on game, hardware, etc.
   
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tweakpower
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Default 07-17-2012, 19:36 | posts: 932 | Location: Serbia

Quote:
Originally Posted by rewt View Post
It can't be generalized as such, as performance will vary depending on game, hardware, etc.
Agree, but from one, you can assume how it will behave on other system. For example, if you have game that use 4 threads or more, you can assume that you will stress CPU less with 1 RFA, because, every thread will prepare 1 frame ahead = 4 frames. But with dual core CPU, it means 2 frames ahead etc. That is difference. More frames ahead prepared = more lag, so, you can assume, that would be strongly advised to use less as possible with quad+ cores CPU's and games that actually use them.

Off topic, that is the reason why i changed to AMD, from past, i know nVidia cards stress CPU more than ATI, and that trend is still the same. Less stresed CPU, different way how drivers work = less lag, and in some games less FPS with GPU's in same range (similar performance), and i can live with that, at the end, it is what you really need, more FPS or more stable FPS, less stressed CPU (in my case very important), and less lag. As i always said, nVidia drivers are very superior to AMD, and that is the reason i go with AMD to be clear, for others, it can be reason to go with nVidia, depends what your aim is.
   
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rewt
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Default 07-17-2012, 19:51 | posts: 1,245 | Location: Americas

You can't assume that the CPU always prepares several frames in advance. That generally only occurs when the GPU is under heavy load (or vsync'd).
   
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tweakpower
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Default 07-17-2012, 20:02 | posts: 932 | Location: Serbia

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Originally Posted by rewt View Post
You can't assume that the CPU always prepares several frames in advance. That generally only occurs when the GPU is under heavy load (or vsync'd).
Actually, that is news for me, didn't know that. Well, that's why i always head unbearable lag with nVidia when using v-sync, but with AMD not. And even without vsync, as i tend to get more FPS to get rid of lag, but i think you got point there, since on some games less lag i experienced with 120 FPS then 200 FPS on NV card.
   
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rewt
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Default 07-17-2012, 20:22 | posts: 1,245 | Location: Americas

A majority of the lag associated with vsync and pre-rendering can be eliminated by limiting FPS at the CPU level.
   
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inplayruns
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Default 07-17-2012, 20:54 | posts: 51

So as a BF3 player with VSync enabled, what would be the best setting? BF3's default is 3 IIRC.
   
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Prophet
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Default 07-17-2012, 21:17 | posts: 776 | Location: Heaven

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Originally Posted by inplayruns View Post
So as a BF3 player with VSync enabled, what would be the best setting? BF3's default is 3 IIRC.
None, you dont use vsync for fpsīs.
   
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rewt
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Default 07-17-2012, 21:21 | posts: 1,245 | Location: Americas

Quote:
Originally Posted by inplayruns View Post
BF3's default is 3 IIRC.
Three is somewhat of an established standard for D3D applications/drivers. OpenGL on the other hand, Nvidia tends to use a value of 2.
   
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inplayruns
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Default 07-17-2012, 22:16 | posts: 51

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Originally Posted by Prophet View Post
None, you dont use vsync for fpsīs.
Yes you do if you don't stand tearing.

The smoothness VSync gives is unparalleled, I'd much rather deal with the so called input "lag" than to deal with tearing.
   
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Prophet
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Default 07-17-2012, 22:32 | posts: 776 | Location: Heaven

Quote:
Originally Posted by inplayruns View Post
Yes you do if you don't stand tearing.

The smoothness VSync gives is unparalleled, I'd much rather deal with the so called input "lag" than to deal with tearing.
Yea the 'so called'. Please dont talk any more about this.
   
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inplayruns
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Default 07-17-2012, 22:34 | posts: 51

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Originally Posted by Prophet View Post
Yea the 'so called'. Please dont talk any more about this.
Why so defensive brosef?
   
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Default 07-17-2012, 23:01 | posts: 525 | Location: UK

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Why so defensive brosef?
He's always like that with the mightier than thou attitude and has a stick up his ass, just ignore him.
   
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Cyberdyne
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Default 07-17-2012, 23:17 | posts: 2,927 | Location: USA, Pennsylvania

Because input lag added by vsync is not "so called". It is what it is, it's there.
   
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rewt
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Default 07-17-2012, 23:44 | posts: 1,245 | Location: Americas

Whether or not we like vsync is our own personal preference, so lets not fight over it.

Latency caused by vsync and pre-rendering are related, but also somewhat independent of each other.

A few folks have complained to Nvidia about the recent changes, but still unclear if that's going to influence future drivers. Perhaps ManuelG can chime in once again.
   
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inplayruns
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Default 07-18-2012, 02:02 | posts: 51

I probably should have worded that one differently, I apologize.

What I meant to say was that input lag, while somewhat noticeable, is not that much of a big deal when compared to a asynchronous image.

There are ways to reduce input lag, and while I'm sure there are ways to reduce tearing as well, I'm pretty sure it will still lack the smoothness of a VSync'ed image.

Last edited by inplayruns; 07-18-2012 at 02:04.
   
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tweakpower
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Default 07-18-2012, 07:56 | posts: 932 | Location: Serbia

Quote:
Originally Posted by rewt View Post
Whether or not we like vsync is our own personal preference, so lets not fight over it.

Latency caused by vsync and pre-rendering are related, but also somewhat independent of each other.

A few folks have complained to Nvidia about the recent changes, but still unclear if that's going to influence future drivers. Perhaps ManuelG can chime in once again.
Kudos to you brother.

Quote:
Originally Posted by inplayruns View Post
I probably should have worded that one differently, I apologize.

What I meant to say was that input lag, while somewhat noticeable, is not that much of a big deal when compared to a asynchronous image.

There are ways to reduce input lag, and while I'm sure there are ways to reduce tearing as well, I'm pretty sure it will still lack the smoothness of a VSync'ed image.
That's all subjective, and from mine point of view it (could) look different than from yours or someone else. To put it simple, yes, there is a lag (even without V-SYNC), yes there is a tearing, and yes, both of them can be reduced (not removed) to acceptable values one wants.

For example, I don't use LCD, and i never have to deal with tearing, because i simple don't experience it. On the other hand, i will experience less lag than you, but i can't stand it, and unfortunately, with nVidia GPU's i couldn't get lag to acceptable level, maybe I'm too sensitive or something, but lag and stutter, i can't stand, i would probably have same opinion for tearing, but i don't have it.
   
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Prophet
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Default 07-18-2012, 08:37 | posts: 776 | Location: Heaven

Quote:
Originally Posted by inplayruns View Post
Why so defensive brosef?
Im not, I just think that if you dont know your stuff you shouldīnt be talking.

Btw, there is no pre rendered frames with opengl. Or at least you cant change it through the drivers. You can confirm this in the nvcpl.
   
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Prophet
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Default 07-18-2012, 08:39 | posts: 776 | Location: Heaven

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Originally Posted by bishi View Post
He's always like that with the mightier than thou attitude and has a stick up his ass, just ignore him.
And here I thought you were too lazy to contribute anything.. oh wait you didnt. Again.
   
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Prophet
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Default 07-18-2012, 08:44 | posts: 776 | Location: Heaven

Quote:
Originally Posted by rewt View Post
That's the reason Nvidia sets it to 3 by default.
But the difference is so small its negliable. Thats why there is the term 'power' when it comes to statistics, because such small differences might as well be statistical anomalies, sunspots, your mom using the dishwasher and affecting electrical output etc.

I dont really have a problem with the defaults though, I understand nvidia wants to show their stuff from the best side. Im saying is 0 has a place and it shouldnt be removed. In fact among fps fans this would be a selling point.

Ps sorry about several different posts
   
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Prophet
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Default 07-18-2012, 08:46 | posts: 776 | Location: Heaven

Quote:
Originally Posted by inplayruns View Post
I probably should have worded that one differently, I apologize.

What I meant to say was that input lag, while somewhat noticeable, is not that much of a big deal when compared to a asynchronous image.

There are ways to reduce input lag, and while I'm sure there are ways to reduce tearing as well, I'm pretty sure it will still lack the smoothness of a VSync'ed image.
120 hz and 130+ fps has very little tearing.
   
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Default 07-18-2012, 08:49 | posts: 2,936

Quote:
Originally Posted by tweakpower View Post
For example, I don't use LCD, and i never have to deal with tearing
CRT's have screen tearing also, just less of it because of the higher refresh rate.

Quote:
On the other hand, i will experience less lag than you, but i can't stand it, and unfortunately, with nVidia GPU's i couldn't get lag to acceptable level
There really isn't a difference between AMD/NV when it comes to input lag, and they both give you control of flip-queue/pre-rendered frames.

Quote:
maybe I'm too sensitive or something, but lag and stutter, i can't stand, i would probably have same opinion for tearing, but i don't have it.
If you were as sensitive to it as you say you are, you'd notice the vertical tearing without V-sync..
   
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tweakpower
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Default 07-18-2012, 09:03 | posts: 932 | Location: Serbia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spets View Post
CRT's have screen tearing also, just less of it because of the higher refresh rate.
Yes, they have, especially at 85Hz or lower. On the other hand, i never said they do not have.

Quote:
There really isn't a difference between AMD/NV when it comes to input lag, and they both give you control of flip-queue/pre-rendered frames.
Cant agree on that one, for you, maybe there is no difference, for me there is. As i stated before, it is subjective experience.

Quote:
If you were as sensitive to it as you say you are, you'd notice the vertical tearing without V-sync..
Sorry, i didn't noticed, give me one game that will tear to test it, i play only few games, and games i played before, never noticed (except under 100Hz, but i don't play most of the games under 100Hz). When screen refresh itself over 100Hz, possibility to tear is quite less than on 60Hz natural.

For my sensitivity, i didn't said I'm too sensitive, but maybe I am, and thanks to mine friends and people i know, I am probably, because they can't see what i point them to see. For example, if i say, game stutter, picture is not clear, they say "you are crazy" lol, than i say "look, do you see that?", and always answer is "no". So that's why i pointed that out, and said maybe.
   
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rewt
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Default 07-18-2012, 14:51 | posts: 1,245 | Location: Americas

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Originally Posted by Prophet View Post
Im not, I just think that if you dont know your stuff you shouldīnt be talking.

Btw, there is no pre rendered frames with opengl. Or at least you cant change it through the drivers. You can confirm this in the nvcpl.
You just couldn't let it go could you?

You're wrong about OpenGL. It can indeed be adjusted using the max pre-rendered frames setting, and it works perfectly. Are you using outdated drivers or something?
   
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Prophet
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Default 07-18-2012, 15:11 | posts: 776 | Location: Heaven

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Originally Posted by rewt View Post
You just couldn't let it go could you?

You're wrong about OpenGL. It can indeed be adjusted using the max pre-rendered frames setting, and it works perfectly. Are you using outdated drivers or something?
Let what go? You spread a lot of information that does have a nice ring to it, but seems false more often than not.

http://www.esreality.com/files/inlin...3-Untitled.jpg

"Latency caused by vsync and pre-rendering are related, but also somewhat independent of each other."

Nice and vague enough so that it doesnt actually mean anything. I could go on, but it would probably just be better for everyone if you started linking sources for your information.

Last edited by Prophet; 07-18-2012 at 15:14.
   
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rewt
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Default 07-18-2012, 15:23 | posts: 1,245 | Location: Americas

I am the source of my information. Max pre-rendered frames applies to OpenGL ever since r300.
   
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