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BuildeR2
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Default 06-29-2017, 09:31 | posts: 2,318 | Location: TX

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDeeGee View Post
Is there a way to block/ignore entire threads?

This dead horse keeps showing up and it's annoying.
Unsubscribe from the thread in your Guru3D user CP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RealNC View Post
RTSS does not add latency. It LOWERS latency.

Uncapped vsync with MPRF 1 has much more lag than RTSS capped vsync. But for that to happen, the game needs to actually reach the cap. Which is why it's crucial that the cap is below the refresh rate.
K. I'll probably be testing this tomorrow night. Sounds interesting.
   
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Default 06-29-2017, 11:51 | posts: 5,050

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Originally Posted by BuildeR2 View Post
Unsubscribe from the thread in your Guru3D user CP.



K. I'll probably be testing this tomorrow night. Sounds interesting.
I'm not subbed to any thread.

I just don't want to see anymore.
   
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Default 06-29-2017, 16:58 | posts: 410

An anecdote came to mind reading this thread , There is a profile bit called "enable gtx 950 specific features" in nvinspector, which was added after nvidia announced a improvement for dota 2 and a few other games, that would allow the 950 to reduce input latency by skipping part of the frame buffering, No idea if works as intended with other games, but it might be worth a look.
   
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Default 06-29-2017, 17:58 | posts: 242 | Location: Tennessee

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I'm not subbed to any thread.

I just don't want to see anymore.
You could just ignore it?
   
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BuildeR2
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Default 07-01-2017, 08:39 | posts: 2,318 | Location: TX

Quote:
Originally Posted by RealNC View Post
Vsync does not actually cap the frame rate. This is a popular misconception about vsync. What it does is syncing the output of new frames to the monitor's "vblank" signal (the point between the monitor having finished scanning out the current frame and is preparing to scan out the next.) The frame rate not exceeding the refresh rate is just a side effect of that. There's no actual frame capping involved.

Because there is no frame cap, the game is preparing new frames as fast as it can. Once all possible frame buffers and all pre-render queues have been filled, only then will the game stop queuing more frames to be displayed. That means when all these buffered and queued frames are displayed later on, they're based on old input. Meaning input lag.

Setting pre-rendered frames to 1 means less queued work is waiting to be processed. The game stops trying to output more frames sooner. Meaning you get less input lag. However, this doesn't help with queued frames that have already been rendered but have accumulated in the output buffers. You still get more input lag that needed.

You can fix this issue by using a frame cap that's set at almost the exact same value as your refresh rate. Just 0.007FPS below it works fine (RTSS is accurate enough to allow for this.)

Step 1: Find out your real refresh rate

Nope, your real refresh rate is in the majority of cases not 60 nor 59. It's usually fractional. Most monitors use 59.94Hz for "60Hz" and 119.982Hz for "120Hz". You can detect your real refresh rate here:

https://www.vsynctester.com

It's important to use a browser that works (Chrome and Firefox should be OK), and that if you're using Windows 7, Aero must be enabled (the test needs Aero's vsync in order to detect your refresh rate.) It's also recommended to make sure that GPU acceleration is enabled in your browser.

You only need the first three decimals of the detected number.

Step 2: Use RTSS's new fractional frame cap feature

In recent versions of RTSS, you can set a denominator for the frame cap. For a 59.940Hz monitor, you'd cap to 59.933FPS. For a 119.982Hz monitor, you'd cap to 119.975FPS.

(At least RTSS version 6.5.1 is needed. Older versions will not work.)

Do do this, you need to edit the profile file of RTSS (to set this globally, you need to edit the "Global" file inside the "Profiles" folder of your RTSS installation directory.) There's no GUI for this. For a 119.975FPS cap, you would need this in the profile file:

Code:
[Framerate]
Limit=119975
LimitDenominator=1000
For a 59.933FPS cap, you'd use:

Code:
[Framerate]
Limit=59933
LimitDenominator=1000
Result

This will keep the pre-render and frame buffers empty by stopping the game from rendering frames faster than your refresh rate.

If you don't do the above, then setting pre-rendered frames higher than 1 will result in more input lag, and can result in bad frame pacing in some games.

And even if you do the above, setting this value to 1 still helps as a guard against temporary framerate fluctuations (no frame capper is perfect), giving a more consistent input lag value.

Keep in mind that all this requires a PC that's able to render frames fast enough. Since the above keeps render/frame buffers empty, it means there's no guard against frame rendering time spikes. If your PC can't maintain a solid 60FPS (or whatever your refresh is), then you might be better off not doing any of this.

If your PC is fast enough though, then this is an excellent way of minimizing vsync input lag and maximizing smoothness by having good frame pacing (meaning frame times that match your refresh rate.)
So I'm pretty much done testing all of this MPRF, in game versus driver V-sync, in game cap versus RTSS versus no cap, 60 versus 59.993 kind of stuff. Running the vsynctester gives me exactly 60.000 so I've gone through and changed several games to cap at 59.993 and they are running great so far. I tried to set it globally at first, but things like MPCHC and Firefox were not behaving. Is this "0.007 below" cap something that you use quite often, RealNC? Or just for rare situations? Here is a screencap from a short session of PCARS with a friend. It was perfectly smooth and responsive. No stutters, hitches or other oddities.
 Click to show spoiler



Quote:
Originally Posted by RealNC View Post
RTSS does not add latency. It LOWERS latency.

Uncapped vsync with MPRF 1 has much more lag than RTSS capped vsync. But for that to happen, the game needs to actually reach the cap. Which is why it's crucial that the cap is below the refresh rate.
Here is another thing that is hard to wrap my mind around, but in practice it seems to work. I need to experiment with more games to see what happens in rare circumstances. For example, PCARS runs at 60FPS locked 99% of the time but if the random weather changes to a thunderstorm and I have more than 30 cars in a race it will hang around 50FPS for a while. Also, Blacklist seems to only have a terrible in game double buffer v-sync so when the engine has a hiccup, which it does, it will cut straight to 30FPS for a few seconds. That is incredibly jarring and I've since switched to using adaptive sync without an RTSS cap, since using the cap of 59.993 disables adaptive sync and leaves a torn image.

Quote:
Originally Posted by user1 View Post
An anecdote came to mind reading this thread , There is a profile bit called "enable gtx 950 specific features" in nvinspector, which was added after nvidia announced a improvement for dota 2 and a few other games, that would allow the 950 to reduce input latency by skipping part of the frame buffering, No idea if works as intended with other games, but it might be worth a look.
Never seen that before, thus never tried it. I might get around to it at some point if I'm troubleshooting a troublesome game or something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyBaldhead View Post
You could just ignore it?
Not clicking on things you don't wish to see? Sounds reasonable enough to me.

Last edited by BuildeR2; 07-01-2017 at 08:45.
   
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RealNC
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Default 07-01-2017, 09:47 | posts: 1,096

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuildeR2 View Post
Is this "0.007 below" cap something that you use quite often, RealNC? Or just for rare situations?
I used it for every game back when I didn't have a g-sync monitor. About 4 months ago I got a g-sync display, so I don't have to do this anymore (except when using ULMB.)

But yes, I've been using this method for many years now. I can still remember doing this back in 2013, playing Tomb Raider when it came out. It worked very well for all refresh rates. 60.007Hz and 75.007Hz with my old monitor back then, and then with 90.007Hz, 120.007Hz and 144.007Hz with a 144Hz non-gsync monitor.

I was OCing my 60Hz monitor to 75.007Hz back then. If your monitor can be convinced to do the same, you'd get extremely good results. 75FPS cap on 75.007Hz is very low vsync latency. It's a big difference compared to 60Hz.

Now with g-sync, I only use this method when playing with ULMB instead of g-sync (since you can't have both at the same time.)


Quote:
PCARS runs at 60FPS locked 99% of the time but if the random weather changes to a thunderstorm and I have more than 30 cars in a race it will hang around 50FPS for a while. Also, Blacklist seems to only have a terrible in game double buffer v-sync so when the engine has a hiccup, which it does, it will cut straight to 30FPS for a few seconds. That is incredibly jarring and I've since switched to using adaptive sync without an RTSS cap, since using the cap of 59.993 disables adaptive sync and leaves a torn image.
Yes, that happens. The low-latency vsync method depends on a fast machine. The game needs to render frames fast enough and always hit the frame cap. If it doesn't, some games can behave badly (like a 30FPS lock in some cases.) There's not much you can do about it other than using triple buffer vsync if the game supports it. This will increase input lag though.

My solution to this back then was to throw more money at the problem (Meaning buying a faster GPU.) Then g-sync happened and it became a non-issue.

Last edited by RealNC; 07-01-2017 at 09:51.
   
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BuildeR2
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Default 07-04-2017, 00:40 | posts: 2,318 | Location: TX

@RealNC - Thanks for all the info and help. This gives me a lot of things to think about and test. I really appreciate it!

EDIT - A few more questions about things I noticed. Any and every game I use RTSS frame limits with results in ~90-100% CPU1 usage, whereas without it many games have much lower CPU usage on both CPU1 and all other cores. Does this have something to do with the "busy cycle" you talked about before?

Last edited by BuildeR2; 07-04-2017 at 01:39.
   
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RealNC
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Default 07-04-2017, 06:38 | posts: 1,096

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuildeR2 View Post
Any and every game I use RTSS frame limits with results in ~90-100% CPU1 usage, whereas without it many games have much lower CPU usage on both CPU1 and all other cores. Does this have something to do with the "busy cycle" you talked about before?
Since it doesn't impact performance, it has to be. Otherwise, you would see lower average framerates when using RTSS, which doesn't seem to be the case. That means the CPU load is generated during the throttling period at which the game is blocked.
   
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BuildeR2
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Default 07-04-2017, 07:28 | posts: 2,318 | Location: TX

Alright. I guess I'll just roll with it for now. So far the 59.993Hz cap is working fine for all of the games I play except very few. Splinter Cell Blacklist and Shadow of Mordor both have their in game V-sync broken by a cap under 60.000Hz, while all of my UWP/MS store games (Forza Apex, Forza Horizon 3, Gears 4 and RotTR) behave worse with the 59.993Hz cap than with a straight up 60.000Hz cap.

Those few oddities aside, I had a very enjoyable Divinity play session with my buddy last night at the 59.993Hz cap. All of this is at MPRF 1, by the way. Thanks again.
   
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RealNC
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Default 07-04-2017, 08:06 | posts: 1,096

For games that have weird in-game vsync behavior, disabling in-game vsync and forcing it in the nvidia panel might give better results.
   
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Default 07-05-2017, 13:46 | posts: 148 | Location: Finland

Quote:
Originally Posted by RealNC View Post
For games that have weird in-game vsync behavior, disabling in-game vsync and forcing it in the nvidia panel might give better results.
Sadly even that doesn't always fix vsync issues. GR:Wildlands has some strange acting vsync. If enabled ingame, random fps drops occur - disabled, no random drops. Disabling ingame vsync and enabling it through driver still results in no vsync at all. I used to play using borderless mode and a 79fps limit through nvinspector. That way I wouldn't have any random drops but instead had noticeably higher input lag. Since I recently started using RTSS I'm going to test the game with a 79.992 cap. Don't know if it's going to help in this case as vsync apparently isn't going to work and playing with vertical lines on the screen isn't an option. I guess borderless + RTSS cap is still better than borderless + inspector cap.
   
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Default 07-05-2017, 15:37 | posts: 463 | Location: italy

I play that game too and using borderlessgaming software+rtss cap and no vsync ingame, causes no tearing and smooth gameplay
   
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Default 07-05-2017, 21:32 | posts: 148 | Location: Finland

Quote:
Originally Posted by kilyan View Post
I play that game too and using borderlessgaming software+rtss cap and no vsync ingame, causes no tearing and smooth gameplay
May I ask why you're using Borderless Gaming on a game that supports borderless mode out the box without the usage of additional programs?
   
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Default 07-05-2017, 22:57 | posts: 463 | Location: italy

Quote:
Originally Posted by GroinShooter View Post
May I ask why you're using Borderless Gaming on a game that supports borderless mode out the box without the usage of additional programs?
because Ubisoft features are always worse, and this works flawlessly
   
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Default 07-05-2017, 23:40 | posts: 148 | Location: Finland

Understandable
But in general if the engine supports borderless mode by default then why would one use an external program to do the same thing? Is there any real benefit in doing so?
   
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BuildeR2
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Default 07-06-2017, 00:25 | posts: 2,318 | Location: TX

Quote:
Originally Posted by GroinShooter View Post
Sadly even that doesn't always fix vsync issues. GR:Wildlands has some strange acting vsync. If enabled ingame, random fps drops occur - disabled, no random drops. Disabling ingame vsync and enabling it through driver still results in no vsync at all. I used to play using borderless mode and a 79fps limit through nvinspector. That way I wouldn't have any random drops but instead had noticeably higher input lag. Since I recently started using RTSS I'm going to test the game with a 79.992 cap. Don't know if it's going to help in this case as vsync apparently isn't going to work and playing with vertical lines on the screen isn't an option. I guess borderless + RTSS cap is still better than borderless + inspector cap.
Yeah, it is mostly Ubi games where I have issues that even driver V-sync won't help with. I also cannot play with tearing so I'm looking at alternatives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GroinShooter View Post
Understandable
But in general if the engine supports borderless mode by default then why would one use an external program to do the same thing? Is there any real benefit in doing so?
I'm also wondering what this does and if it helps versus the ingame borderless option.
   
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RealNC
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Default 07-06-2017, 06:06 | posts: 1,096

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuildeR2 View Post
I also cannot play with tearing so I'm looking at alternatives.
G-Sync

It's amazing.
   
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BuildeR2
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Default 07-06-2017, 06:35 | posts: 2,318 | Location: TX

Quote:
Originally Posted by RealNC View Post
G-Sync

It's amazing.
So I've heard. My close friend with an RX 480 has a freesync LG monitor but refuses to use freesync because it is "too complicated" so I have basically zero real life experience with variable sync technology. Also, my computer has always been hooked up to the biggest TV in the house so that everybody can enjoy movies and other stuff on it. The likelihood of getting a G-sync monitor, heck, even a monitor, is next to none for years. G-sync 4k TV in a year or 2 is probably the only way it would happen. Until then, it leaves me with messing with stuff like MPRF, DB & TB V-sync, dynamic resolution, RTSS and all that goodness.
   
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Default 07-06-2017, 06:38 | posts: 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by RealNC View Post
In my experience, all games are the same. If I don't use 1, they have input lag.

The only exceptions are games that already use 1 by default on their own.

Setting this to 1 globally is recommended. I think AMD even switched to 1 as default in their drivers. Globally.
I was looking for some information on this - about AMD having flip queue set to 1 globally - all over the internet. Is this verifiable with an AMD GPU - RadeonMod or checking some registry values?

I'm asking because I recently switched from a R9 390 to a GTX 1060 and am fiddling with the allowed pre-rendered frames. Unfortunately, while I had the AMD GPU I didn't check at all about the flip queue size.

However, one recent test/experiment with Witcher 3 made me think about this. By loading the same save game and doing the same things over time, I recorded the CPU utilization graph and followed CPU usage percentage on screen as well:
  • with the R9 390 - I noted down or memorized the areas where the CPU would max out.
  • when using the Nvidia GPU with default pre-rendered (3) I got 100% CPU utilization more often in areas in which I didn't with the AMD one.

With these observations, I was suspecting that at least for Witcher 3, AMD has limited the number of pre-rendered frames, because otherwise - CPU consumption should be about the same (not with a 30% difference when drawing same kind of frames <same in-game view>).

Of course, when setting pre-rendered frames to 1 on the Pascal GPU I got similar CPU usage graph in same areas as when I had the AMD R9 390.
This leads me to conclude that at least for Witcher 3, AMD used lower flip queue size - maybe 1 as you tell - but do you know for sure they have this globally set? Because, if so, I would also like to keep it globally on 1 now, with the Pascal, as I was quite satisfied with the performance and experience before.

Thanks a lot also for your other tips with frame limiting and using RTSS as a capper with vsync on to get smoother experience. At least in MSI AB frametime graphs I get a straight line when doing this, although latency wise I can't feel if it's better or just the same as without capping with RTSS - only MSI AB shows a different graph - with higher frame-times.

I think MSI AB still only takes one measurement per 1000ms - the default - with frametimes - so it is only an aproximate value or mean-value - which might be quite diffrent than a per-frame frametime graph.
   
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kilyan
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Default 07-06-2017, 12:37 | posts: 463 | Location: italy

Quote:
Originally Posted by GroinShooter View Post
Understandable
But in general if the engine supports borderless mode by default then why would one use an external program to do the same thing? Is there any real benefit in doing so?
To avoid potential problems with Ubisoft's coded with feet stuff but also in other non Ubisoft games.
I'm used to the bordeless gaming software in all games now, i woudn't step back ever to use ingame borderless feature,because never had problems using the software, while with in game borderless i had tearing without v-sync.
So don't care to try if ingame works as it should, as i'm 100% sure the software does its work.
   
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yasamoka
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Default 07-06-2017, 13:08 | posts: 4,314 | Location: Lebanon

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuildeR2 View Post
So I've heard. My close friend with an RX 480 has a freesync LG monitor but refuses to use freesync because it is "too complicated" so I have basically zero real life experience with variable sync technology. Also, my computer has always been hooked up to the biggest TV in the house so that everybody can enjoy movies and other stuff on it. The likelihood of getting a G-sync monitor, heck, even a monitor, is next to none for years. G-sync 4k TV in a year or 2 is probably the only way it would happen. Until then, it leaves me with messing with stuff like MPRF, DB & TB V-sync, dynamic resolution, RTSS and all that goodness.
What the hell is your friend talking about? Too complicated? The AMD driver enables FreeSync by default when it detects a FreeSync display. What's more complicated (and amounts to 4 button presses) is right-clicking the desktop, clicking on AMD Radeon Settings, clicking on the Display tab, then clicking on the AMD FreeSync toggle right below the respective display name.

All games (except, rarely, a handful with potential issues) then work with FreeSync, regardless of whether VSync is on or off (as that only controls 1) behavior above the FreeSync range and 2) Probably also below the range if there is no LFC and 3) timing compensation when within the range in order to prevent frames that are a bit off in timing from tearing).

Last edited by yasamoka; 07-06-2017 at 13:10.
   
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rogue221979
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Default 07-10-2017, 00:50 | posts: 607 | Location: Oxford maine

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Originally Posted by inplayruns View Post
Yes you do if you don't stand tearing.

The smoothness VSync gives is unparalleled, I'd much rather deal with the so called input "lag" than to deal with tearing.
The lag is there. Trying sim racing with Vsync on. Very bad delay in steering.
   
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