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  (#51)
The Laughing Ma
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Default 06-12-2017, 01:08 | posts: 3,141

Quote:
I was replying in kind to your points 'sir. You spoke of new cars and depreciation
and yet I notice you are still avoiding / ignoring choice 3, you do know that if you are considering a second hand EV then the logical alternative would be a second hand ICE and that shock horror the outcome of that is that the EV is STILL the more expensive option over the vehicles life time to buy and own?

I mean I can answer your question with a YES but it doesn't really help your point. I mean the main thrust of your posts being that you'll save money buying and running an EV and the reality is that that isn't right, not even close.

I mean the other stuff about agitated fuel being spilled on explosive loafers is all very creative and I'll admit every time I go to the petrol station I am worried that the whole place will explode again, just like it did the last two thousand times I refuelled my car but if it's that or sit around for 8 hours waiting for my car to refuel. Well I am tooling up with a shotgun and some Nomex flame retardant underwear and fighting my way through those vast crowds of agitated refuellers to get some petrol.
   
 
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  (#52)
IcE
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Default 06-12-2017, 02:59 | posts: 10,646 | Location: Toledo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vibe View Post
Lol, Petrol. Can't say I ever heard anyone actually call it petrol. Sounds like a Canadian or UK thing.
Have you never watched Top Gear? I thought everyone knew Brits call it Petrol. It's just shorthand for Petroleum. We call it gas as a shorthand for gasoline. Canadians do purchase fuel in litres though. USA is basically the only country left that sells it by the imperial gallon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mufflore View Post
Yep, its English :p
Do you speak American?
   
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  (#53)
thatguy91
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Default 06-12-2017, 05:24 | posts: 6,448 | Location: Australia

Quote:
Originally Posted by IcE View Post
USA is basically the only country left that sells it by the imperial gallon.
The US doesn't use the imperial gallon, it's the US gallon. The US gallon is around 3.8 litres, the imperial gallon around 4.5 L litres. There are four quarts per gallon in the US and imperial, thus the US quart is less. The US pint is also different to the Imperial pint, and ounces is also slightly different. just a sidenote, gold is measured in Troy ounces, which is different again .
   
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  (#54)
IcE
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Default 06-12-2017, 06:37 | posts: 10,646 | Location: Toledo

Quote:
Originally Posted by thatguy91 View Post
The US doesn't use the imperial gallon, it's the US gallon. The US gallon is around 3.8 litres, the imperial gallon around 4.5 L litres. There are four quarts per gallon in the US and imperial, thus the US quart is less. The US pint is also different to the Imperial pint, and ounces is also slightly different. just a sidenote, gold is measured in Troy ounces, which is different again .
You're right, I always confuse the mysterious US equivalents and the actual imperial ones. There's a reason all this was phased out, lol
   
 
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  (#55)
Mufflore
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Default 06-12-2017, 12:04 | posts: 10,233 | Location: United states of Kingdom

Quote:
Originally Posted by IcE View Post
Do you speak American?
The only thing that got me was having to pay for petrol before putting it in the car :p
I've had 2 great holidays in your country.
I communicated well enough to organise a snap climb of Yosemite Falls and Half Dome.
This avoided buying petrol for 2 days :p
   
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  (#56)
Loobyluggs
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Default 06-15-2017, 23:22 | posts: 2,245 | Location: UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by thatguy91 View Post
The US doesn't use the imperial gallon, it's the US gallon. The US gallon is around 3.8 litres, the imperial gallon around 4.5 L litres. There are four quarts per gallon in the US and imperial, thus the US quart is less. The US pint is also different to the Imperial pint, and ounces is also slightly different. just a sidenote, gold is measured in Troy ounces, which is different again .
That's nothing, we measure beer in pints, milk in pints and litres, cans of coke as 'cans' which equates to 330ml, and then there is fuel and driving; which is where it goes Pete Tong:

We buy fuel in Litres, measure fuel economy by dividing distance by the gallon of fuel consumed, which is in miles, power output by horses, torque by pounds per square inch and Newton meters, spark plug distance by thousandths of a square inch, tyre pressure by atmospheric weight and kilopascals, electric current in the vehicle in watts and amps, light bulb illumination in watts and lumens, and although not finally, all lists must end: pollution by carbon gram per kilometre.

The UK is a nightmare for language and communication in general, not to mention all of the heteronyms.

One of the most stressful jobs in the world would be publishing a vehicle brochure for the UK market. It would be 500 pages deep.
   
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  (#57)
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Default 06-16-2017, 04:53 | posts: 397

Did anyone mention that some new gasoline engines like the 8AR-FTS have thermal efficiencies of ~38%, which is better than many automotive Diesel engines and a lot of hybrids?

Thats the result of very advanced combustion simulations being done on supercomputers.

Last edited by Exascale; 06-16-2017 at 05:08.
   
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  (#58)
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Default 06-16-2017, 20:05 | posts: 2,245 | Location: UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Laughing Ma View Post
and yet I notice you are still avoiding / ignoring choice 3, you do know that if you are considering a second hand EV then the logical alternative would be a second hand ICE and that shock horror the outcome of that is that the EV is STILL the more expensive option over the vehicles life time to buy and own?

I mean I can answer your question with a YES but it doesn't really help your point. I mean the main thrust of your posts being that you'll save money buying and running an EV and the reality is that that isn't right, not even close.

I mean the other stuff about agitated fuel being spilled on explosive loafers is all very creative and I'll admit every time I go to the petrol station I am worried that the whole place will explode again, just like it did the last two thousand times I refuelled my car but if it's that or sit around for 8 hours waiting for my car to refuel. Well I am tooling up with a shotgun and some Nomex flame retardant underwear and fighting my way through those vast crowds of agitated refuellers to get some petrol.
Sorry, I missed your post.

No - for a 20 mile trip 5 times a week, EV is the better choice. Deal with it.

I am speaking about the UK on this and the tax breaks for solar energy and EV vehicles being what they are. If someone can do the research on other countries, perhaps your point will stand up to scrutiny, but not the UK; we got it too good here. We even got EV public transport and a lot of LPG. The 'park and rides' are free for EV, with free charging...so things are good. No idea how good they are elsewhere, but I hear Europe is pretty good for EV, too. Lots of cyclists in Europe and it's funny when some friends of mine came to visit from Holland, because for them and their fellow countrymen, cycling is considered a viable form of transport Here in the UK, I think we got a lot of catching up to do, some people do not consider a five mile journey to work on a bike as 'normal' and would rather take a car and watch their money disappear in a puff of smoke! It might also explain why obesity is on the rise and killing people the UK like mustard gas:

http://www.nhs.uk/news/2016/07July/P...ly-in-men.aspx

Money down the drain.

Check the tax breaks and links I dropped and run the numbers again. I will say that you have to really commit to it, and I'm talking about owning your own solar panels as well and owning a property that has a garage (or likewise) and somewhere to have solar panels, but I think I alluded to that in my post earlier anyway.
   
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  (#59)
The Laughing Ma
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Default 06-17-2017, 00:08 | posts: 3,141

Quote:
No - for a 20 mile trip 5 times a week, EV is the better choice. Deal with it.
Quote:
OP just wants a personal transportation vehicle to do 100 miles to work and back on a 5 day rotation.

It wasn't a debate on the environmental impact of combustion engines, just the cost - and here in the U.K., we got tax breaks galore for making a electric vehicle a no-brainer.
So now on top of the hidden costs of the EV themselves you now also have to pay for solar panels (don't worry the tax breaks will some how pay for that cost, either that or the fairies install them for nothing, and you have to have a property that you can install them on and a garage for the EV
to charge in.

are you really going to sit THERE and say that an EV is the CHEAPER option here given all the 'commitment' as you put it or wades of cash as I would call it needed just to get the car going?

You never asked the OP if they could do ANY of these things and that's before you even tried factoring in the additional costs but you are STILL convinced that an EV is the better option?

I mean fine if that's your opinion you are entitled to it, I mean you're WRONG comprehensively in every respect WRONG and as you put it you really need to

Quote:
Deal with it.
I just hope that the reason you are pushing this 'cheaper' option isn't because you actually bought an EV and feel that you have to justify that purchase.

Can I also highlight this part of your post

Quote:
It wasn't a debate on the environmental impact of combustion engines, just the cost
You haven't actually given a cost for anything, just comments on tax breaks for solar panels and uber priced brand new EVs and if this is a debate on the cost alone why have you gone in to some tirade about about the attitude of folk at fuel stations, public health, comparision of attitudes towards cycling and vehicle use vs European counterparts.... basically a whole bunch of deflective stuff that means you don't have to actually look at the COST?

The question is rhetorical by the way, in that I don't expect you to actually answer it and even if you do I am kinda past caring.

Last edited by The Laughing Ma; 06-17-2017 at 00:48.
   
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  (#60)
Exascale
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Default 06-17-2017, 03:33 | posts: 397

If you have to factor "tax breaks" into the cost, youre not dealing with the actual costs of things.
   
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  (#61)
Loobyluggs
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Default 06-17-2017, 08:36 | posts: 2,245 | Location: UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exascale View Post
If you have to factor "tax breaks" into the cost, you're not dealing with the actual costs of things.
I'll make this simple for you.

EV = the normal cost of owning and operating an ICE, minus car tax and fuel.

You can also get grants directly from the government:

https://www.gov.uk/plug-in-car-van-g...what-youll-get

Yes, that's right - the UK Government will give you money to reduce pollution.

What I did is add additional benefits to the already awesome benefits for the OP, such as getting paid for contributing to the national grid if you have a solar panel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HM Government

The export tariff - selling surplus energy

As well as the generation tariff, you can also sell any extra units you don’t use back to your electricity supplier. This is called an ‘export tariff’.

You’ll get 4.85p per unit of electricity.

You can sell back half of the units of electricity you generate. You’ll need an export meter if your installation is above 30kW.

You’ll also save money on your electricity bills for the energy you do use.
As stated though, if you got the room for solar panelling, you would be the biggest douchebag god ever let through the door, if you didn't have an EV for a 20 mile round trip. A 20 mile round trip which only requires 1 full charge a week.

As it stands it is just a no-brainer.

Putting this into perspective, in the UK you can visit a 'park and ride' (or whatever) on a Saturday, go to town to shop/meet friends/watch a movie as per normal, safe in the knowledge that in less time than it would take for you to do your business in town, your car would be charged for an entire week for your 20 mile round trip. Or what about just doing the weekly grocery shop for 30-60 mins? No worries, as all major supermarkets have charging stations now at the big and sometimes no-so-big stores.

On a side note, there is currently discussion in parliament to fine people for running their engines when in traffic, amongst other ideas, to reduce pollution in cities. People do have this awful habit of just sitting there in traffic with the engine running for no reason at all.

This would be an extension of the current law...

https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/trans...lingofavehicle

...which as you can see is “Lighting and noise offences”.

Some talk I've heard is £20, but I think £50 is more likely after it gets put through parliament. As for enforcement, they are going to monitor it and issue fines based on the cameras at traffic lights, looking for heat output of a vehicle, which, if it is giving off enough energy through the read, will trigger a photograph and an offence ticket issued automatically to the owner.

Did I mention insurance? Oh yeah, that's a 5% reduction right there...shop around.

Your EV overlords are coming. And they mean business.
   
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  (#62)
Exascale
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Default 06-18-2017, 04:25 | posts: 397

Electric cars have been around forever, and you really need to factor in the environmental impact of trashing a bunch of gasoline and diesel cars and buying and manufacturing EVs with batteries and electronics that involve environmental devastation on a scale that the feel good environmentalists cant comprehend, in order to manufacture them.

Its like much of the LED lighting craze. A lot of the LEDs used in the new street lights are LESS efficient than the high pressure sodium fixtures that theyre trashing and replacing. Many of the fire hazard consumer LEDs people buy and replace incandescents with cause eye problems and have terrible color rendering, theyre made in China with toxic chemicals, and they produce considerable e-waste. Like electric vehicles, the total enviromental and economic costs are overlooked.

A lot of this greenwashing is actually much worse for the environment than people who just use and develop technology appropriately. A lot of it is a scam to trick gullible people into buying junk they really dont need or, things that are actually detrimental to the environment like the Paris Accord, which is nothing but a wealth redistribution scam.

The idea of wasting infrastructure and tons of electricity to monitor engine heat output using thermal imaging cameras, all of which would be backed by a datacenter full of servers using tons of power and the buraucracy offices to deal with the ticketing, is a perfect example of the non-adaptive, destructive mentality that leads to the kind of environment we have today.

The real solution wouldnt be to punish people stuck in traffic, but to incentivize people to use public transport or actually FIX the congestion!

It seems pretty absurd to waste the energy and effort on such a fruitless backward endeavour as ticketing people for being stuck in traffic. As it probably would to most people with a scientific background.

And unless your car is designed for start/stop operation youll just end up damaging the starter motor or coking your turbo.

But we know the real motive behind foolish laws like that. Politicians, bureaucrats and the companies that back them and sell greenwashed nonsense to the gullible masses and make a fortune preying on the generally ignorant buying public.

It also creates a perverse incentive structure, like a lot of the trade and progressive tax policies that are supposed to make things better but only end up making things worse. Government regulation and bureaucracy hasnt resulted in reduced pollution. Innovation and competetion has. Youll create a whole market for heat shields to fool the thermal imaging cameras so that people who dont want to turn their engines off can sit there idling.

While EVs make sense for some people, they arent for everyone as they currently exist. They arent intrinsically environmentally friendly.

Also, is the government subsidizing this solar farm on the roof? I realize you can backfeed the grid and get paid. Thats not new. Not many people can afford the initial investment of buying solar panels and wiring them up. Some people looking for a car cant afford a significant portion of the price of the car in order to charge the car. What do they do if they have to drive a distance that a normal gasoline or diesel car can go, but an EV cant? Rent a car? You have to think of these things before you buy.

Right now, electric cars are basically feel good toys for a niche market. They arent an answer to the ICE at all, as they currently are, otherwise companies wouldnt be spending billions in research and development on better combustion efficiency for gasoline engines, and running massive simulations on supercomputers to do it.

Last edited by Exascale; 06-19-2017 at 06:36.
   
Old
  (#63)
Loobyluggs
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Default 06-19-2017, 18:49 | posts: 2,245 | Location: UK

Hilbert, your forums are terrible - I type out a response and the forum times out and I lose my post!
   
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  (#64)
Loobyluggs
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Default 06-19-2017, 18:49 | posts: 2,245 | Location: UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exascale View Post
Electric cars have been around forever, and you really need to factor in the environmental impact of trashing a bunch of gasoline and diesel cars and buying and manufacturing EVs with batteries and electronics that involve environmental devastation on a scale that the feel good environmentalists cant comprehend, in order to manufacture them.

Its like much of the LED lighting craze. A lot of the LEDs used in the new street lights are LESS efficient than the high pressure sodium fixtures that theyre trashing and replacing. Many of the fire hazard consumer LEDs people buy and replace incandescents with cause eye problems and have terrible color rendering, theyre made in China with toxic chemicals, and they produce considerable e-waste. Like electric vehicles, the total enviromental and economic costs are overlooked.

A lot of this greenwashing is actually much worse for the environment than people who just use and develop technology appropriately. A lot of it is a scam to trick gullible people into buying junk they really dont need or, things that are actually detrimental to the environment like the Paris Accord, which is nothing but a wealth redistribution scam.

The idea of wasting infrastructure and tons of electricity to monitor engine heat output using thermal imaging cameras, all of which would be backed by a datacenter full of servers using tons of power and the buraucracy offices to deal with the ticketing, is a perfect example of the non-adaptive, destructive mentality that leads to the kind of environment we have today.

The real solution wouldnt be to punish people stuck in traffic, but to incentivize people to use public transport or actually FIX the congestion!

It seems pretty absurd to waste the energy and effort on such a fruitless backward endeavour as ticketing people for being stuck in traffic. As it probably would to most people with a scientific background.

And unless your car is designed for start/stop operation youll just end up damaging the starter motor or coking your turbo.

But we know the real motive behind foolish laws like that. Politicians, bureaucrats and the companies that back them and sell greenwashed nonsense to the gullible masses and make a fortune preying on the generally ignorant buying public.

It also creates a perverse incentive structure, like a lot of the trade and progressive tax policies that are supposed to make things better but only end up making things worse. Government regulation and bureaucracy hasnt resulted in reduced pollution. Innovation and competetion has. Youll create a whole market for heat shields to fool the thermal imaging cameras so that people who dont want to turn their engines off can sit there idling.

While EVs make sense for some people, they arent for everyone as they currently exist. They arent intrinsically environmentally friendly.

Also, is the government subsidizing this solar farm on the roof? I realize you can backfeed the grid and get paid. Thats not new. Not many people can afford the initial investment of buying solar panels and wiring them up. Some people looking for a car cant afford a significant portion of the price of the car in order to charge the car. What do they do if they have to drive a distance that a normal gasoline or diesel car can go, but an EV cant? Rent a car? You have to think of these things before you buy.

Right now, electric cars are basically feel good toys for a niche market. They arent an answer to the ICE at all, as they currently are, otherwise companies wouldnt be spending billions in research and development on better combustion efficiency for gasoline engines, and running massive simulations on supercomputers to do it.
I would like a citation on every single one of your statements.
   
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  (#65)
The Laughing Ma
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Default 06-20-2017, 00:39 | posts: 3,141

Quote:
I would like a citation on every single one of your statements.
Three pages of nonsense you've spouted safe in the knowledge you never have to actually provide ANY real hard 'citation' on your original statement that an EV is the cheaper option because YOU believe that YOU are right and you then have the cheek to ask someone THAT on a post they make.

I am sure there is a saying about some kettle being called black by a pot in there somewhere!
   
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  (#66)
Exascale
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Default 06-20-2017, 05:30 | posts: 397

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loobyluggs View Post
I would like a citation on every single one of your statements.
That gave me a good laugh. Yeah i totally have every scientific, engineering and research paper ive read in the last quarter century compiled in case some random on the internet is so lazy that they quote my entire post and answer it with a one line "citation needed".

Seriously, specifically refute or question something instead of being so intellectually lazy.

Also, the forums are fine. Im posting from a phone behind a VPN. No timeouts. Perhaps its your connection or PC.

Last edited by Exascale; 06-20-2017 at 05:32.
   
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  (#67)
Loobyluggs
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Default 06-20-2017, 10:48 | posts: 2,245 | Location: UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exascale View Post
That gave me a good laugh. Yeah i totally have every scientific, engineering and research paper ive read in the last quarter century compiled in case some random on the internet is so lazy that they quote my entire post and answer it with a one line "citation needed".

Seriously, specifically refute or question something instead of being so intellectually lazy.

Also, the forums are fine. Im posting from a phone behind a VPN. No timeouts. Perhaps its your connection or PC.
Apologies to all, I was extremely upset after refuting everything you wrote over a about an hour of typing and checking facts, and the forum timed out my connection.

This happened before with my complete and total attack of "Man of Steel".

Forums do time out, I just wish there was a countdown to when the forums will time out so I can at least save it.

But yes, your points do (mostly) require proof, because I found none, so for you to convince me, the burden of proof is on you, not me.
   
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  (#68)
Exascale
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Default 06-20-2017, 11:40 | posts: 397

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loobyluggs View Post
Apologies to all, I was extremely upset after refuting everything you wrote over a about an hour of typing and checking facts, and the forum timed out my connection.

This happened before with my complete and total attack of "Man of Steel".

Forums do time out, I just wish there was a countdown to when the forums will time out so I can at least save it.

But yes, your points do (mostly) require proof, because I found none, so for you to convince me, the burden of proof is on you, not me.
Which things specifically?

Rhodopsin mediated photo reversal caused by the spectral power distribution of high CCT white LEDs?

Greenwashing?

Thermal efficiency of ICEs?

The longevity of starter motors and turbosuperchargers when improperly stopped and started?

The Paris Accord being a redistribution of wealth scam?

Last edited by Exascale; 06-20-2017 at 11:43.
   
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  (#69)
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Default 06-20-2017, 12:10 | posts: 6,448 | Location: Australia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exascale View Post
A lot of the LEDs used in the new street lights are LESS efficient than the high pressure sodium fixtures that theyre trashing and replacing. Many of the fire hazard consumer LEDs people buy and replace incandescents with cause eye problems and have terrible color rendering, theyre made in China with toxic chemicals, and they produce considerable e-waste.
The type of streetlamps in your area is a key consideration when deciding whether to purchase a petrol or diesel vehicle.
   
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  (#70)
Exascale
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Default 06-20-2017, 12:28 | posts: 397

Quote:
Originally Posted by thatguy91 View Post
The type of streetlamps in your area is a key consideration when deciding whether to purchase a petrol or diesel vehicle.
I was giving examples of greenwashing that are similarly environmentally unfriendly to EVs.

Really gasoline vs Diesel comes down to what you want in terms of the rest of the car, and not so much on just the engine.

Total cost of ownership varies, as do other actual priorities like reliability and safety.

In terms of ICE technology, i would just buy a really efficient turbosupercharged gasoiline engined car or get a hybrid. Diesels have tons of torque and are excellent choices for massive efficient engines that run relatively slowly, but with 38% thermally efficient gasoline engines i dont see the need to base your purchase solely on which TYPE of fuel it uses.
   
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Default 06-20-2017, 13:35 | posts: 6,448 | Location: Australia

Just wait for HCCI engine to become available and you can use either fuel .

Last edited by thatguy91; 06-20-2017 at 13:37.
   
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Loobyluggs
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Default 06-20-2017, 14:11 | posts: 2,245 | Location: UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exascale View Post
Which things specifically?

Rhodopsin mediated photo reversal caused by the spectral power distribution of high CCT white LEDs?

Greenwashing?

Thermal efficiency of ICEs?

The longevity of starter motors and turbosuperchargers when improperly stopped and started?

The Paris Accord being a redistribution of wealth scam?
Just, all of your claims. That's all, just want citations, peer-viewed paper submissions, evidence, all the normal things one uses to prove their claims.

All the sentences/paragraphs you put down.
   
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Exascale
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Default 06-20-2017, 16:41 | posts: 397

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loobyluggs View Post
Just, all of your claims. That's all, just want citations, peer-viewed paper submissions, evidence, all the normal things one uses to prove their claims.

All the sentences/paragraphs you put down.
Oh so JUST every sentence i say needs to have citations because you dont have knowledge of the subjects being discussed?

So if i say "the sky is blue" i need to explain Rayleigh scattering and cite peer reviewed studies. Come on.

If you expect to be taken seriously ask a specific question about something i said. Im not your personal professor, so im really not obligated to write citations for literally every sentence i write. Especially considering you barely cite anything.
   
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Loobyluggs
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Default 06-20-2017, 20:12 | posts: 2,245 | Location: UK

That which can be claimed without proof can be dismissed without proof.

The burden of proving your claim is not a cross I have to hold.

I hereby dismiss every claim you've made, but am manly enough to permit you every honour to defend your position.
   
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The Laughing Ma
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Default 06-20-2017, 20:26 | posts: 3,141

Quote:
That which can be claimed without proof can be dismissed without proof.

The burden of proving your claim is not a cross I have to hold.

I hereby dismiss every claim you've made, but am manly enough to permit you every honour to defend your position.
LOL



I am done, I am out this is some extended practical joke that only Loopy knows the punch line too.
   
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