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Zen Build Planning...
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BLEH!
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Default Zen Build Planning... - 02-23-2017, 13:04 | posts: 5,576 | Location: THE NORTH!!!

So, given RyZen is nearly upon us, I'm mulling over upgrading my aging X58 rig.

What I'm planning to buy:
1) 8-core, probably the 1700X
2) a decent, but not OTT board (not the gaming ones), something that will have enough features for decent OCing, but for stable use as an audio workstation. Fancy networking and audio not required as I'm using an external soundcard.
3) 16 GB (2 x 8) DDR4, probably 2400 MHz, maybe 2666 as the price is about the same.
4) Windows 10 Pro

What I'm bringing over from my existing rig:
1) Case - HAF-X
2) PSU - Enermax 1500W
3) GPU - Sapphire Fury
4) 512 GB Vertex 4 SSD
5) DVD Drive and 3 data drives (could probably add a blue ray drive, instead...?)
6) PCIe Firewire card, so I can actually use my external soundcard.
7) Noctua NH-D14.

So any suggestions from that lot or does it seem straightforward?

I'm curious about whether or not it's worth getting an M2 SSD for the uber read and write speeds, 500 MB/s across SATAIII is quick enough, right?

Ta

BLEH!
   
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sverek
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Default 02-23-2017, 13:11 | posts: 2,611 | Location: Ibaraki, Japan

I gonna break the hype and ask questions.

Why you need faster rig?
What can Ryzen do that your 980X is incapable off?
Isn't there something more significant that can pay off? Monitor? Audio Gear? etc...


   
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lmimmfn
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Videocard: MSI 980 Ti
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Mainboard: Gigabyte X58 UD5
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Default 02-23-2017, 13:33 | posts: 10,220 | Location: Ireland

I'm still trying to decide if I should upgrade my also aging x58 rig or not, I'll wait until benchmarks first. My main issue is the good old x58 platform is pretty flexible and has a lot of pcie lanes( OK only pcie2 ) these have come in handy long term for sata3 & usb3 pcie cards. Ryzen is pretty limited long term due to low number of lanes, same with Intel with 6800k CPU's etc, but with Intel in a few years you can swap the CPU for a cheap second hand Xeon.

Still, the upgrade itch is strong lol
   
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BLEH!
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PSU: Enermax Revo 1500W
Default 02-23-2017, 15:43 | posts: 5,576 | Location: THE NORTH!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sverek View Post
I gonna break the hype and ask questions.

Why you need faster rig?
What can Ryzen do that your 980X is incapable off?
Isn't there something more significant that can pay off? Monitor? Audio Gear? etc...
This is a bit of a double edged-sword, really, there are a number of reasons for wanting to upgrade:
1) Power, my current CPU uses about 150 W overclocked and the mobo probably about 80 (X58 + SB + 2 x unused NF200 chips), Zen would be about a third of that.
2) Gaming, minimum frame rates would go up hugely with the improved because I do get some lagging in more demanding modern titles.
3) Content creation, yes my CPU works OK, but it does struggle when running many many VSTs in Cubase and for my YouTube work, rendering videos can take a fair while, so any improvement there would be nice, really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lmimmfn View Post
I'm still trying to decide if I should upgrade my also aging x58 rig or not, I'll wait until benchmarks first. My main issue is the good old x58 platform is pretty flexible and has a lot of pcie lanes( OK only pcie2 ) these have come in handy long term for sata3 & usb3 pcie cards. Ryzen is pretty limited long term due to low number of lanes, same with Intel with 6800k CPU's etc, but with Intel in a few years you can swap the CPU for a cheap second hand Xeon.

Still, the upgrade itch is strong lol
This, basically. My backup rig (7850K/A88X) has far better connectivity than my X58 rig. The core of my PC is now 6 years old, it's time for a change, benchmarks permitting.
   
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Geryboy
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Default 02-23-2017, 16:00 | posts: 2,376 | Location: Munich

the x370 pro from asus is the cheapest x370 here, if that is too expensive, well there's only b350.
   
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BLEH!
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Default 02-23-2017, 16:17 | posts: 5,576 | Location: THE NORTH!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geryboy View Post
the x370 pro from asus is the cheapest x370 here, if that is too expensive, well there's only b350.
Yeah, I don't see the Crosshair being that much better for what I want to do. I'm not planning on running the thing at 5 GHz under water, anyway.
   
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sverek
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Default 02-23-2017, 23:08 | posts: 2,611 | Location: Ibaraki, Japan

Quote:
Originally Posted by BLEH! View Post
This is a bit of a double edged-sword, really, there are a number of reasons for wanting to upgrade:
1) Power, my current CPU uses about 150 W overclocked and the mobo probably about 80 (X58 + SB + 2 x unused NF200 chips), Zen would be about a third of that.
2) Gaming, minimum frame rates would go up hugely with the improved because I do get some lagging in more demanding modern titles.
3) Content creation, yes my CPU works OK, but it does struggle when running many many VSTs in Cubase and for my YouTube work, rendering videos can take a fair while, so any improvement there would be nice, really.



This, basically. My backup rig (7850K/A88X) has far better connectivity than my X58 rig. The core of my PC is now 6 years old, it's time for a change, benchmarks permitting.
That would be actually reasonable upgrade. AMD 8 cores would do come handy for rendering.

See how different performance between 1700X and 1700, you could decide from there.

Gaming wise, CPU limited titles like BF1 could be played at higher frames. I think your current CPU cap around 70-90. Ryzen should be able to ryzen it above around 120. Just speculations.

Anyway, looks good! I wouldn't rush m.2 unless there actual need for high I/O. SataIII should be enough for your daily usage. Could be good though for system to load it in seconds, but again its just it. I dont think there lags during usage cause of SATA SSD.


   
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__hollywood|meo
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Default 02-24-2017, 04:08 | posts: 2,713 | Location: the hollywod multiplex

Quote:
Originally Posted by BLEH! View Post
2) a decent, but not OTT board (not the gaming ones), something that will have enough features for decent OCing

I'm curious about whether or not it's worth getting an M2 SSD for the uber read and write speeds, 500 MB/s across SATAIII is quick enough, right?
MSI b350 tomahawk & asus b350 plus only have 6 stage VRM, but if theyre quality components, thats enough for a bit of OC. gigabytes ab350 gaming board has 8 stage VRM (might be able to OC more) but no USB3.1. they all have m2 slots. they all cost about a cnote.

m2 is definitely nice to have but idk wat the real world difference is, or if its even noticeable beyond SATA 6gb/sec spec when you arent working with huuuuuuuuuuuuuuge files...
   
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BLEH!
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Videocard: Sapphire Fury
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PSU: Enermax Revo 1500W
Default 02-24-2017, 09:29 | posts: 5,576 | Location: THE NORTH!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sverek View Post
That would be actually reasonable upgrade. AMD 8 cores would do come handy for rendering.

See how different performance between 1700X and 1700, you could decide from there.

Gaming wise, CPU limited titles like BF1 could be played at higher frames. I think your current CPU cap around 70-90. Ryzen should be able to ryzen it above around 120. Just speculations.

Anyway, looks good! I wouldn't rush m.2 unless there actual need for high I/O. SataIII should be enough for your daily usage. Could be good though for system to load it in seconds, but again its just it. I dont think there lags during usage cause of SATA SSD.
Yeah, I'll be reeading ALL the reviews before taking the plunge, maybe wait a month or so to see if any technical glitches pop up.

I'm tempted to grab a small, fast M2 drive for the OS then have my current SSD for games and audio samples.

Quote:
Originally Posted by __hollywood|meo View Post
MSI b350 tomahawk & asus b350 plus only have 6 stage VRM, but if theyre quality components, thats enough for a bit of OC. gigabytes ab350 gaming board has 8 stage VRM (might be able to OC more) but no USB3.1. they all have m2 slots. they all cost about a cnote.

m2 is definitely nice to have but idk wat the real world difference is, or if its even noticeable beyond SATA 6gb/sec spec when you arent working with huuuuuuuuuuuuuuge files...
Had issues with Giga in the past, sticking with ASUS preferably, or maybe Asrock, MSI. M.2: 4 x faster when you don't already realise how fast your SSD is... XD
   
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__hollywood|meo
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Videocard: MSI 7970 1.2ghz + EK
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PSU: PCP&C Silencer 750w Quad
Default 02-24-2017, 13:16 | posts: 2,713 | Location: the hollywod multiplex

oh somehow i missed your post here! saw you in the asus mobo thread mentioning the x370 prime pro. if youre stepping up to that price bracket, take a look at the MSI pro carbon as well. either one of those look very nice on paper.
   
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Geryboy
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Default 02-24-2017, 13:29 | posts: 2,376 | Location: Munich

I have my OS on a Sata 3 SSD, the m2 would boot alot faster, wouldn't be worth the money for me though...
   
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dudecat64
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Default 02-24-2017, 14:55 | posts: 3,680 | Location: nystate

i know the feeling. I am still debating on my motherboard. I will not go with gigabyte again. Two boards i have had on intel system and dont like either one. But my amd 970 board was rock solid wierd. Anyways i think either msi or asrock for me this round.
   
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BLEH!
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Videocard: Sapphire Fury
Processor: 980X @ 4.00 GHz
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Memory: 12 GB Corsair @ 2133 MHz
Soundcard: Saffire Pro40/KRK Rokit 5
PSU: Enermax Revo 1500W
Default 02-24-2017, 15:09 | posts: 5,576 | Location: THE NORTH!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dudecat64 View Post
i know the feeling. I am still debating on my motherboard. I will not go with gigabyte again. Two boards i have had on intel system and dont like either one. But my amd 970 board was rock solid wierd. Anyways i think either msi or asrock for me this round.
I've had many Gigabyte boards die on me or just have no end of compatibility issues with RAM/CPUs/GPUs, etc. My current ASUS X58 board has been running full on for 6 years now and shows no signs of slowing down, fantastic compatibility all over. My backup rig (though lightly used) has a nice feature-rich MSI board I really like, not had any issues so far.
   
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jura11
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Videocard: Titan X 2*GTX 1080 FE EK
Processor: i7-5820k 4.5GHz EKWB
Mainboard: ASRock X99 Extreme 6
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Soundcard: AVID Mbox 2
PSU: Seasonic X1250W
Default 02-26-2017, 23:41 | posts: 1,185 | Location: London

Hi there

Personally I'm looking at ASRock X370 boards like is Taichi which is probably cheapest over here and pack same features like Asus Crosshair VI which cost more, right now running ASRock board and really like it these boards,they pack lots of features and don't cost too much money

Regarding CPU, 1800x looks like best CPU with good OC or 1700x which hopefully can be OC to reasonable 4.2-4.4GHz

And RAM, get 2*16GB which you can sometimes find for good money, you can find them from 175 for Vengeance 2400MHz and more

I personally will be using mine 64GB 2400MHz or 2133MHz

Regarding using M.2 on audio workstation its bit useless, I personally have or using normal SSD and most of my samples are on normal HDD and scratch disk is second SSD Crucial M500 which is not bad, but still slower than my Samsung 1TB

8 core/16 threads should be awesome in Cubase or in Ableton which I use mostly with Logic Pro X and there I use lots plugins

Old X58 is not bad in music or audio production SW but showing the age

Hope this helps

Thanks, Jura
   
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Elder III
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Videocard: GTX 1080 Ti FE
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Default 02-27-2017, 00:57 | posts: 3,188 | Location: Upstate New York

If you are interested in a M.2 SSD, Biostar is giving a free 240 GB M.2 SSD with their GT7 x370 motherboard on newegg. The price is $209, but with the value of the SSD it's the best deal out there imo.... I actually switched my pre-order to it because of the deal. It sounds like you're looking for the same kind of motherboard I was, so it might be worth checking out.

*No exact word on what model of SSD it actually is at this point. My bet is that it's Biostar M200-240, so a fairly basic model as far as M.2 SSDs go.

**In case you don't live in Canada as I thought from "The North"... just scratch all I said.
   
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BLEH!
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Default 03-06-2017, 10:14 | posts: 5,576 | Location: THE NORTH!!!

Right, so given the Zen reviews, it's promising, but for my needs Intel might be better if I can source the right parts. There are a number of reasons for this:
1) Fairly low OC ceiling relative to Intel (currently), and the inability to OC single cores to higher speeds for the same TDP. I really could do with the high single-core clocks for some games and certain workloads.
2) Again, while the multithreaded perf is pretty damn good, a well OCed 6-core should suffice for my needs, and have more PCIe lanes available should they be needed.

So I'm thinking:
X99, 5820K or (if I can find one cheap) 5930K. Both of these seem to OC much higher than broadwell, despite the newer process. Quad channel 16 GB of 2400 or similar.

X99 is a known beast nowadays and probably easier to work with.

Thoughts?
   
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sverek
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Default 03-06-2017, 10:55 | posts: 2,611 | Location: Ibaraki, Japan

Getting 5820K at this stage is really a waste. If you really really need insane frames for gaming right now, get 7700K. 5820K is wasted by 1700X at any benchmark where amd and intel scales the same. No need to mention that single core performance of 5820K is below of quad cores and overclockability is also lower.

You also mentioned getting better lowest frames, thats where ryzen is capable when Intel CPUs hitting a cap.


   
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BLEH!
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PSU: Enermax Revo 1500W
Default 03-06-2017, 11:06 | posts: 5,576 | Location: THE NORTH!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sverek View Post
Getting 5820K at this stage is really a waste. If you really really need insane frames for gaming right now, get 7700K. 5820K is wasted by 1700X at any benchmark where amd and intel scales the same. No need to mention that single core performance of 5820K is below of quad cores and overclockability is also lower.

You also mentioned getting better lowest frames, thats where ryzen is capable when Intel CPUs hitting a cap.
7700K doesn't *really* have enough cores for my needs, I need those extra threads when working with huge audio projects in Cubase. It's a matter of trying to strike that balance.
   
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BLEH!
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Videocard: Sapphire Fury
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Memory: 12 GB Corsair @ 2133 MHz
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PSU: Enermax Revo 1500W
Default 03-06-2017, 15:54 | posts: 5,576 | Location: THE NORTH!!!

I must also add that I refuse to buy a CPU I have to break to make work properly...
   
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Dazz
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Videocard: MSI Gaming X Geforce 1070
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Default 03-13-2017, 00:41 | posts: 594 | Location: UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by BLEH! View Post
I must also add that I refuse to buy a CPU I have to break to make work properly...
I take it you mean deliddle, in either case can't go wrong with the Ryzen for a good all rounder CPU.
   
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eclap
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Default 03-13-2017, 00:54 | posts: 31,511 | Location: Hampshire, UK

Deliding Ryzens doesn't really yield any real world improvement anyway, so nobody really has to do it. I would still go with the best cooler one can afford, but that goes for every cpu nowadays.
   
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yasamoka
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Default 03-13-2017, 01:24 | posts: 4,255 | Location: Lebanon

Quote:
Originally Posted by eclap View Post
Deliding Ryzens doesn't really yield any real world improvement anyway, so nobody really has to do it. I would still go with the best cooler one can afford, but that goes for every cpu nowadays.
I believe he's talking about the 7700K.

@BLEH!: I would suggest waiting a bit for the Ryzen gaming performance fog to clear, so that we would know whether the issue is in hardware or not. Those 8 cores would be really sweet for your work, and you'd get quite higher performance than any of the Intel 6-core processors.

The 5820K / 6800K don't overclock very high as it is and they offer only 28 PCI-E lanes. Do those 8 extra lanes matter over Ryzen's 20 lanes? If so, then losing 2 cores in order to gain higher clock frequencies, extra PCI-E lanes, and quad channel memory might be worth it (price is almost the same).

However, if you do go for Ryzen (that's what I would be leaning to given your workload), I'd go for at least a DDR4 3200MHz dual-channel kit given how sensitive Ryzen seems to be to memory.

If you care a bit more about gaming performance and still need more than 4 cores but cannot afford to wait for Ryzen's gaming issues to be (hopefully) sorted out, then the 5820K / 6800K seem to be a good choice. The 6800K has slightly higher IPC to offset the lower clock speeds so you might want to look into that direction.

I'm pretty satisfied with my 5820K, nothing I can't throw at it, gaming or otherwise.
   
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BLEH!
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Videocard: Sapphire Fury
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Default 03-13-2017, 10:35 | posts: 5,576 | Location: THE NORTH!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dazz View Post
I take it you mean deliddle, in either case can't go wrong with the Ryzen for a good all rounder CPU.
Exactly, the 7700K should come with solder, not crappy TIM

. It's the (relative) poor gaming performance and low OC headroom that's worrying me. If the Windows fix helps, then I might look at it, but given you can't OC individual cores to higher levels, that's a put off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eclap View Post
Deliding Ryzens doesn't really yield any real world improvement anyway, so nobody really has to do it. I would still go with the best cooler one can afford, but that goes for every cpu nowadays.
I wouldn't delid a ryzen anyway, pointless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yasamoka View Post
I believe he's talking about the 7700K.

@BLEH!: I would suggest waiting a bit for the Ryzen gaming performance fog to clear, so that we would know whether the issue is in hardware or not. Those 8 cores would be really sweet for your work, and you'd get quite higher performance than any of the Intel 6-core processors.

The 5820K / 6800K don't overclock very high as it is and they offer only 28 PCI-E lanes. Do those 8 extra lanes matter over Ryzen's 20 lanes? If so, then losing 2 cores in order to gain higher clock frequencies, extra PCI-E lanes, and quad channel memory might be worth it (price is almost the same).

However, if you do go for Ryzen (that's what I would be leaning to given your workload), I'd go for at least a DDR4 3200MHz dual-channel kit given how sensitive Ryzen seems to be to memory.

If you care a bit more about gaming performance and still need more than 4 cores but cannot afford to wait for Ryzen's gaming issues to be (hopefully) sorted out, then the 5820K / 6800K seem to be a good choice. The 6800K has slightly higher IPC to offset the lower clock speeds so you might want to look into that direction.

I'm pretty satisfied with my 5820K, nothing I can't throw at it, gaming or otherwise.
Haswell-E looks like the best solution to me, but as you said, let the fog clear before buying anything. My current rig works, but the itch to upgrade is growing stronger...
   
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Jw_Leonhart
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Videocard: EVGA GeforceGTX 770 SC
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Default 03-14-2017, 05:17 | posts: 4,203 | Location: New Jersey

So here is a pic of my 1700x build with Asuss Crosshair Vi Hero, 32GB Trident RGB Ram, 500GB M2 drive, 2x 500GB SSD drives, and a GTX 1070 all running under watercooling.

First the temps are all over the place. Right now under Asus newest Bios my idle temp is reported at 60C, but the BIOS this came with it showed about 30C... so what to believe? AMD says it's not a big deal and subtract 20C from whatever is reported. I say WTF.....

The system takes about 45 seconds just to post when you turn the power on and sometimes the self check will go through several times so I get to enjoy that wait.

Then the other random issues like CPU Voltage being reported as 1.438V even when idle which shouldn't be.

I could go on for a while. If anything wait for the platform to mature. I dumped $3000 into a build I should have honestly went with a 7700 and called it a day especially since the price drop makes it comparable in price and performance to the 1700x and it's a mature platform without any problems.


   
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