Guru3D.com Forums

Go Back   Guru3D.com Forums > General > Consoles & console games
Consoles & console games This section is for all hardcore console gamers out there .. XBOX 360, PlayStation 3, Wii Threads with posts in January 2007 can be found in General Hardware


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old
  (#101)
lucidus
Ancient Guru
 
lucidus's Avatar
 
Videocard: 780
Processor: i7 920 3.5GHz
Mainboard: Asus P6T Deluxe
Memory: 6GB
Soundcard: Onboard
PSU: Corsair TX750
Default 01-09-2013, 14:05 | posts: 6,883 | Location: Dubai

Wasn't the PS3 a pain to code for thanks to the 7 "cores" on it among other reasons? Having 8 on this thing sounds plain weird then :-S Going by multiplats of 360's generation we may end up needing at least an Hex core in that case
   
Reply With Quote
 
Old
  (#102)
scatman839
Ancient Guru
 
scatman839's Avatar
 
Videocard: 7970m, UE46D5000
Processor: i7 3610QM
Mainboard: Intel HM77
Memory: 12GB DDR3
Soundcard: Via HD, x-530
PSU: 180w
Default 01-09-2013, 14:19 | posts: 10,164 | Location: Dundee, Scotland

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucidus View Post
Wasn't the PS3 a pain to code for thanks to the 7 "cores" on it among other reasons? Having 8 on this thing sounds plain weird then :-S Going by multiplats of 360's generation we may end up needing at least an Hex core in that case
Well, 6, one was reserved for the OS.
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#103)
Shadowdane
Master Guru
 
Videocard: MSI GTX 780Ti SLI
Processor: i7-4770K @ 4.2Ghz
Mainboard: Asus Maximus VI Hero
Memory: GSkill 16GB DDR3-2400
Soundcard: SBZ/ProMonitor800/M8 Sub
PSU: Corsair 850HX
Default 01-09-2013, 15:17 | posts: 795 | Location: Virginia

Quote:
Originally Posted by scatman839 View Post
Well, 6, one was reserved for the OS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucidus View Post
Wasn't the PS3 a pain to code for thanks to the 7 "cores" on it among other reasons? Having 8 on this thing sounds plain weird then :-S Going by multiplats of 360's generation we may end up needing at least an Hex core in that case
Well the PS3 didn't have a typical CPU design. It had 1 PPE core which is a general purpose processor, which supported 2 threads at once. The PPE core is very similar to 1 core from the Xbox 360 actually.

The remaining "cores" are actually co-processors called SPEs, which have to be fed data from the main PPE core. The easiest way to explain it is the PS3 has a single core CPU with 6 co-processors.

It's a very odd design and that is why it was so difficult to program for. The wiki article has more in depth info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_(m...ssor)#Overview

I can't find the article at the moment but I read even to this day most developers still aren't getting even 50-60% of the theoretical performance of the Cell CPU. It's just too difficult to keep all those SPEs fed with data.
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#104)
gamerk2
Maha Guru
 
Videocard: NVIDIA 570 GTX 1.2 GB
Processor: Intel i7 2600k @ 3.9GHz
Mainboard: ASUS P8P67 Deluxe
Memory: 8GB DDR3 1600 MHz
Soundcard: ASUS Xonar Xense
PSU: 750W
Default 01-09-2013, 18:06 | posts: 2,104 | Location: Medford, NY

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowdane View Post
Possible Xbox Next / Xbox 720 specs leak...

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=507325

8-core CPU
8800 (AMD) GPU
8gb ram
640gb hdd
Windows 8 based
All unlikely. For one, given how the dev hardware is ALREADY in developers hands, is almost impossible for the GPU to be an 8000 series. Nevermind the yield issues or the fact that AMD doesn't typically use round numbering for GPU models (EG: 7870, 7890, but no 7800).

Win 8 is also unlikely, given how the CPU is almost certainly PPC based. That would imply Win 8 has been ported to PPC, and frankly, its not worth the time/effort for a console, no matter how capable. At that point, MS would have been better off going either X86 or ARM.

8GB is flat out overkill, unless the console does a HECK of a lot more then we think it does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucidus View Post
Wasn't the PS3 a pain to code for thanks to the 7 "cores" on it among other reasons? Having 8 on this thing sounds plain weird then :-S Going by multiplats of 360's generation we may end up needing at least an Hex core in that case
It wasn't as much the cores as it was the way you work with them. The 6 SPE's the programmer can use all use DMA for memory access; that is, each has its own small cache that data is read to/from, but the cores themselves can NOT access main memory. As a result, you have a LOT of problems that the cache that services each core is always filled with the data the core needs, otherwise you waste a LOT of time waiting for the data to go where it needs to go. This also makes it very difficult to share data across multiple cores, so you really have to put thought into what cores process what data.
   
Reply With Quote
 
Old
  (#105)
gamerk2
Maha Guru
 
Videocard: NVIDIA 570 GTX 1.2 GB
Processor: Intel i7 2600k @ 3.9GHz
Mainboard: ASUS P8P67 Deluxe
Memory: 8GB DDR3 1600 MHz
Soundcard: ASUS Xonar Xense
PSU: 750W
Default 01-09-2013, 18:08 | posts: 2,104 | Location: Medford, NY

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowdane View Post
Well the PS3 didn't have a typical CPU design. It had 1 PPE core which is a general purpose processor, which supported 2 threads at once. The PPE core is very similar to 1 core from the Xbox 360 actually.

The remaining "cores" are actually co-processors called SPEs, which have to be fed data from the main PPE core. The easiest way to explain it is the PS3 has a single core CPU with 6 co-processors.

It's a very odd design and that is why it was so difficult to program for. The wiki article has more in depth info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_(m...ssor)#Overview

I can't find the article at the moment but I read even to this day most developers still aren't getting even 50-60% of the theoretical performance of the Cell CPU. It's just too difficult to keep all those SPEs fed with data.
More or less a simpler explanation of what I just posted; thats what I get for jumping the gun.

The 360's Xenon Processor is actually a slightly modified Cell PPE, with three cores and 2-way SMT.
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#106)
umeng2002
Master Guru
 
umeng2002's Avatar
 
Videocard: eVGA GTX 580 BO @ 920
Processor: 1090t @ 4 GHz
Mainboard: Asus Sabertooth 990FX
Memory: DDR3 8GB @ 1600 8-9-8-28
Soundcard: X-Fi: DAC_I: MKV: HD600
PSU: On my 2nd Corsair TX750W
Default 01-14-2013, 04:50 | posts: 481 | Location: Milky Way

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fender178 View Post
If those specs are correct very nice, but why in the world does the new Xbox need 2 6 core CPUs. This is a gaming console not a server. If I am reading the CPU specs correctly. If I am notsics some one can correct me. Also the Power 7 CPU was the same CPU that was used in the Super Computer Watson that competed on Jeopardy.
games really haven't adapted multi-threading as fast as other programs (partly due to current consoles). Most games like faster clocks over "more cores." I hope it has 6 to 8 "real" cores, so the whole industry starts targeting better core scaling over clock speeds.

And I'm not just talking about the typical audio on one core, physics on another, AI on another... I'm talking about multi-threaded AI, physics (or GPU), audio, AI, etc....

So at some point a typical PC game can really benefit from going from a 3 GHz 8 core to a 16 core at the same speed.

Basically I want the next Xbox and PS4 to be advanced as possible to help push PC gaming.
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#107)
Mr.Bigtime
Ancient Guru
 
Mr.Bigtime's Avatar
 
Videocard: ZOTAC GTX 680 @ 27" SA950
Processor: I7 4770K @ 3.5 GHZ
Mainboard: ASUS Z87 PRO
Memory: 16GB DDR3 1600 MHZ
Soundcard: ONBOARD & LOGITECH Z906
PSU: Coolermaster something
Default 01-14-2013, 08:12 | posts: 18,500 | Location: Turkey

Now we will need to upgrade our pcs to catch the consoles? Oh the irony.
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#108)
gamerk2
Maha Guru
 
Videocard: NVIDIA 570 GTX 1.2 GB
Processor: Intel i7 2600k @ 3.9GHz
Mainboard: ASUS P8P67 Deluxe
Memory: 8GB DDR3 1600 MHz
Soundcard: ASUS Xonar Xense
PSU: 750W
Default 01-14-2013, 13:48 | posts: 2,104 | Location: Medford, NY

Quote:
Originally Posted by umeng2002 View Post
games really haven't adapted multi-threading as fast as other programs (partly due to current consoles). Most games like faster clocks over "more cores." I hope it has 6 to 8 "real" cores, so the whole industry starts targeting better core scaling over clock speeds.

And I'm not just talking about the typical audio on one core, physics on another, AI on another... I'm talking about multi-threaded AI, physics (or GPU), audio, AI, etc....

So at some point a typical PC game can really benefit from going from a 3 GHz 8 core to a 16 core at the same speed.

Basically I want the next Xbox and PS4 to be advanced as possible to help push PC gaming.
The main problem is that you can not, under any circumstance, speed up a program more then the time it takes to execute the serial portions of the code. So you are NEVER going to see the vast majority of tasks scale to any real degree. Hence why clockspeed/IPC remains the primary driver of performance.

For instance, multithreaded AI is a pain to manage. Simple example, how do you keep your AI updates in sync? Oh right, you need a control thread, so you lose the advantages of threading. Nevermind the fact that the AI touches the audio and physics engines, so you introduce a LOT more bottlenecking due to thread contention. [Nevermind that AI itself is trivial for 99% of games out there; just a simple state machine. Not that hard to process.]

Look, we tried the scaling thing back in the 80's. MIT had plans to put together a mainframe with 10k CPUs. They stopped after 1,000, because they found that after 30 or so CPU's, even when programming with low level assembly, you simply could not scale to any real degree; at that point, the inherent bottlenecks involved actually started to DEGRADE performance.

My point being: Nothing is going to change as far as core scaling goes; its already about as good as it is going to get. Though that won't stop people from complaining about how consoles are somehow responsible for PC's perceived shortcomings.
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#109)
gamerk2
Maha Guru
 
Videocard: NVIDIA 570 GTX 1.2 GB
Processor: Intel i7 2600k @ 3.9GHz
Mainboard: ASUS P8P67 Deluxe
Memory: 8GB DDR3 1600 MHz
Soundcard: ASUS Xonar Xense
PSU: 750W
Default 01-17-2013, 15:19 | posts: 2,104 | Location: Medford, NY

And apparently, according to IGN, I was more or less right on the HW of the 720. IGN is reporting the 720 will be using a IBM PPC CPU (no details, but long expected by me) and an AMD 6670 GPU. PS3 using an AMD APU (still shocked at them going X86; must want more dev attention...) and an AMD 7670 GPU.

So yeah, from a PC perspective: Last generation mid-low tier HW. As expected.
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#110)
Fender178
Maha Guru
 
Videocard: R9 290 Tri-x
Processor: i7 4790k @ 4.4ghz
Mainboard: Asus Z97 Pro
Memory: Gskill Ares 16gb 2133mhz
Soundcard: Onboard
PSU: Corsair AX 860W
Default 01-17-2013, 18:34 | posts: 1,640 | Location: Pennsylvania

If they used 64bit technology it would jack up the price you guys would pay for the system. Also console gaming has not come close to needing it as the way I see it.
   
Reply With Quote
 
Old
  (#111)
UnrealGaming
Maha Guru
 
UnrealGaming's Avatar
 
Videocard: AMD HD 7870 2GB
Processor: Intel Core 2 Quad Q9550
Mainboard: MSI P45 Platinum
Memory: Kingston HyperX DDR2 4GB
Soundcard: Realtek ALC888/888T
PSU: Chieftec 650W
Default 01-18-2013, 09:30 | posts: 2,454 | Location: Serbia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fender178 View Post
If they used 64bit technology it would jack up the price you guys would pay for the system. Also console gaming has not come close to needing it as the way I see it.
lol.
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#112)
HonoredShadow
Ancient Guru
 
HonoredShadow's Avatar
 
Videocard: MSI 970 SLI OC+ASUS Swift
Processor: 2700k@4.8 Noctua NH-U12P
Mainboard: AsRock Z77 Extreme4
Memory: 16GB Corsair 1866mhz
Soundcard: ASUS Xonar DX PCI-E
PSU: 1300W EVGA SuperNOVA
Talking 01-18-2013, 10:04 | posts: 3,634 | Location: UK

Yer! Just lol. Silly thing to put wasn't it. Jack up the price? 64bit? Don't know where to start with that...
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#113)
Gaizokubanou
Maha Guru
 
Gaizokubanou's Avatar
 
Videocard: Sapphire HD 7970
Processor: i7 930 @ 3.8ghz 1.25v
Mainboard: Asus P6X56D-E
Memory: DDR3 6GB
Soundcard: ASUS Xonar DX
PSU: Corsair HX750W
Default 01-18-2013, 10:09 | posts: 1,234

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fender178 View Post
Also console gaming has not come close to needing it as the way I see it.
That's such a circular way of viewing something.
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#114)
Mufflore
Ancient Guru
 
Mufflore's Avatar
 
Videocard: KFA2 Anarchy 580@930/4650
Processor: 2500K @ 4.5GHz - blew it!
Mainboard: Gigabyte P67 UD4 B3
Memory: 8G Kngston 2.2GHz CL11 1T
Soundcard: Minimax+ & Dexa Opamps !!
PSU: Corsair Pro AX750
Default 01-18-2013, 10:51 | posts: 9,769 | Location: UK

Only reason PC needs 64bit for gaming is to allow access to more than 4GB memory space continuous.
How many games use more than 2GB and how many use 64bit code?
What benefit do the few 64bit games have over the 32bit versions? Practically none.

Once consoles start to render vertical 4K and 8K resolutions (without cheating), then 4GB memory space wont be enough due to massive texture space and display file memory requirements.
It will be 8 to 10 years probably before the next console with that capability.
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#115)
UnrealGaming
Maha Guru
 
UnrealGaming's Avatar
 
Videocard: AMD HD 7870 2GB
Processor: Intel Core 2 Quad Q9550
Mainboard: MSI P45 Platinum
Memory: Kingston HyperX DDR2 4GB
Soundcard: Realtek ALC888/888T
PSU: Chieftec 650W
Default 01-18-2013, 11:33 | posts: 2,454 | Location: Serbia

wow.
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#116)
Fender178
Maha Guru
 
Videocard: R9 290 Tri-x
Processor: i7 4790k @ 4.4ghz
Mainboard: Asus Z97 Pro
Memory: Gskill Ares 16gb 2133mhz
Soundcard: Onboard
PSU: Corsair AX 860W
Default 01-18-2013, 12:10 | posts: 1,640 | Location: Pennsylvania

Maybe I was stupid for saying it could jack up the price if they made the switch to 64bit technology.
Consoles have not have come close to having 4gb of ram yet. However it is possible that they are already at 64bit because them console CPUs are a tad different than Pc CPUs. Also they find ways of doing stuff similar to the PC.
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#117)
Mr.Bigtime
Ancient Guru
 
Mr.Bigtime's Avatar
 
Videocard: ZOTAC GTX 680 @ 27" SA950
Processor: I7 4770K @ 3.5 GHZ
Mainboard: ASUS Z87 PRO
Memory: 16GB DDR3 1600 MHZ
Soundcard: ONBOARD & LOGITECH Z906
PSU: Coolermaster something
Default 01-18-2013, 13:09 | posts: 18,500 | Location: Turkey

no hardware physx yes? on both ps4 and xbox720.
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#118)
UnrealGaming
Maha Guru
 
UnrealGaming's Avatar
 
Videocard: AMD HD 7870 2GB
Processor: Intel Core 2 Quad Q9550
Mainboard: MSI P45 Platinum
Memory: Kingston HyperX DDR2 4GB
Soundcard: Realtek ALC888/888T
PSU: Chieftec 650W
Default 01-18-2013, 13:09 | posts: 2,454 | Location: Serbia

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fender178 View Post
Maybe I was stupid for saying it could jack up the price if they made the switch to 64bit technology.
Consoles have not have come close to having 4gb of ram yet. However it is possible that they are already at 64bit because them console CPUs are a tad different than Pc CPUs. Also they find ways of doing stuff similar to the PC.




But, no one was even talking about that...

Judging from the post before yours, by "Gamer2k", the discussion was about :

There's a talk that the new consoles ( or one of them ) could possibly use x86 CPU ( "classic" desktop architecture from Intel, AMD ) instead of PowerPC IBM's CPU ( which is what consoles "usually" use ).

What you posted was not only ridiculous in itself , but a different topic altogether.
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#119)
Yxskaft
Master Guru
 
Videocard: 5770
Processor: Intel Core i7
Mainboard:
Memory: 8GB DDR3
Soundcard: Integrated
PSU: 650w
Default 01-18-2013, 13:46 | posts: 647

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mufflore View Post
Only reason PC needs 64bit for gaming is to allow access to more than 4GB memory space continuous.
How many games use more than 2GB and how many use 64bit code?
Practically none.
Dice has said that they have upcoming games that will require a 64-bit OS
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#120)
Mufflore
Ancient Guru
 
Mufflore's Avatar
 
Videocard: KFA2 Anarchy 580@930/4650
Processor: 2500K @ 4.5GHz - blew it!
Mainboard: Gigabyte P67 UD4 B3
Memory: 8G Kngston 2.2GHz CL11 1T
Soundcard: Minimax+ & Dexa Opamps !!
PSU: Corsair Pro AX750
Default 01-18-2013, 14:47 | posts: 9,769 | Location: UK

I'll believe that when I see it.
It would make sense to have 64bit extensions for those PCs that can use them.
To exclude 32bit PCs would put a big dent in their profits.

In this article it says
http://www.engadget.com/2012/05/22/d...me-2013-games/
Quote:
The developer points to memory as the main culprit, as going 64-bit guarantees full access to 4GB or more of RAM as well as better virtual addressing.
Upcoming consoles arent powerful enough to need or use more than 4GB address space for the game code on a single process.
The processors can still address larger memory space, this only applies to the max size of a single process.
They have 6 cores with multiple threads on each.
If they used all the memory up on a single process, they would waste all the other cores and the hyper threading.

This assumes they will even have 4GB.
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#121)
gamerk2
Maha Guru
 
Videocard: NVIDIA 570 GTX 1.2 GB
Processor: Intel i7 2600k @ 3.9GHz
Mainboard: ASUS P8P67 Deluxe
Memory: 8GB DDR3 1600 MHz
Soundcard: ASUS Xonar Xense
PSU: 750W
Default 01-18-2013, 19:55 | posts: 2,104 | Location: Medford, NY

X64 offers a LOT more then just the extra memory space; you get an extra set of HW registers, which cuts down on a lot of extra memory I/O. You also get a larger memory bus (same methodology).
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#122)
UnrealGaming
Maha Guru
 
UnrealGaming's Avatar
 
Videocard: AMD HD 7870 2GB
Processor: Intel Core 2 Quad Q9550
Mainboard: MSI P45 Platinum
Memory: Kingston HyperX DDR2 4GB
Soundcard: Realtek ALC888/888T
PSU: Chieftec 650W
Default 01-18-2013, 21:04 | posts: 2,454 | Location: Serbia

Xbox, xbox 360, PS3, Wii U ... all have 64 bit capable CPU's. Of course that the new consoles will, as well. The point is really not even worth discussing.
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#123)
HonoredShadow
Ancient Guru
 
HonoredShadow's Avatar
 
Videocard: MSI 970 SLI OC+ASUS Swift
Processor: 2700k@4.8 Noctua NH-U12P
Mainboard: AsRock Z77 Extreme4
Memory: 16GB Corsair 1866mhz
Soundcard: ASUS Xonar DX PCI-E
PSU: 1300W EVGA SuperNOVA
Default 01-21-2013, 21:10 | posts: 3,634 | Location: UK

http://uk.gamespot.com/news/xbox-720...report-6402692

Quote:
The rumours surrounding Microsoft's successor to the Xbox continue to mount, with one website claiming to have had access to the machine's specifications in full. According to technical documents acquired by VGLeakz, the console will feature an 8-core CPU, Blu-Ray, a DirectX 11.1-capable GPU and 8GB of DDR3 RAM.

The site also claims that the next Xbox's processor will feature an x64 8-core CPU with a clock of 1.6Ghz. Each "CPU thread has its own 32KB L1 instruction cache and 32KB L1 data cache", while both modules "of four CPU cores has a 2MB L2 cache resulting in a total of 4MB of L2 cache."

On top of that, "each core has one fully independent hardware thread with no shared execution resources" and "each hardware thread can issue two instructions per clock," according to the site.

Elsewhere in the document, the Xbox 720 - codenamed Durango - will allegedly feature 8GB of DDR3 RAM, a 6x Blu-Ray drive and 32MB of embedded SRAM.

The GPU will support DirectX 11.1, run at a core of 800mhz and feature 12 shader cores which provide "a total of 768 threads." The document reports that at peak performance "the GPU can effectively issue 1.2 trillion floating-point operations per second."

The document also claims that Microsoft's latest version of Kinect is always present, presumably indicating that the motion-sensor will be build into the machine itself.

Another point mentioned is that a SATA 2.0 "hard drive is always present", suggesting that Microsoft's next machine won't allow for optional hard drives in the way the Xbox 360 did.

Rounding off the rumoured specifications is support for HDMI 1.4a, 802.11n Wi-Fi and USB 3.0 alongside a bevy of codecs, multi-channel echo cancellation for Kinect and "cryptography engines for encryption and decryption, and hashing".
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#124)
XP-200
Maha Guru
 
XP-200's Avatar
 
Videocard: Zotac GTX 760 2GIG OC
Processor: Intel i7-4770 @ 3.40ghz
Mainboard: Asus Z87-K
Memory: Corsair XMS3 12GB 1333
Soundcard: VIA HD Onboard
PSU: OCZ 600w+80
Default 01-21-2013, 23:17 | posts: 2,701 | Location: UK

^^The kinect built into the next xbox always seems a bit strange in these rumours......i dont see how this could ever be done....not everybody can have their xbox sitting right under or on top of the TV....how will kinetc work for people with the console under TV stands.

Just seems very unworkable.....unless its similar to the wii sensor bar.....but then how would it be built into the console?
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#125)
Shadowdane
Master Guru
 
Videocard: MSI GTX 780Ti SLI
Processor: i7-4770K @ 4.2Ghz
Mainboard: Asus Maximus VI Hero
Memory: GSkill 16GB DDR3-2400
Soundcard: SBZ/ProMonitor800/M8 Sub
PSU: Corsair 850HX
Default 01-22-2013, 15:26 | posts: 795 | Location: Virginia

Quote:
Originally Posted by XP-200 View Post
^^The kinect built into the next xbox always seems a bit strange in these rumours......i dont see how this could ever be done....not everybody can have their xbox sitting right under or on top of the TV....how will kinetc work for people with the console under TV stands.

Just seems very unworkable.....unless its similar to the wii sensor bar.....but then how would it be built into the console?
I hope Kinect isn't built in to the console... I can only get about 6ft back from my TV, that isn't quite enough room to make it work well.

If it is built-in, it better work fine if your up close to the camera. Maybe they will use a wider angle lense on it?
   
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Skin developed by: vBStyles.com
Copyright (c) 1995-2014, All Rights Reserved. The Guru of 3D, the Hardware Guru, and 3D Guru are trademarks owned by Hilbert Hagedoorn.