General explanation of Full RGB and TV's that support it

Mda400 · *Last edited by Mda400; 12-19-2012 at 14:10.*

HDTV's (Rear-projection HDTV's and projectors support it, but have no way to switch between limited and full) DO support full range RGB (its a sub-requirement of the HDMI specification that requires all HDMI-compliant TV's to support the RGB colorspace in compatibility with DVI) its just that your off-brand insignia,Dynex, Emerson, Etc. brand TV's don't have a menu option to switch between limited and full.

Ever tried changing your Xbox 360's resolution to one of those PC format resolutions (1360x768 or 1024x768 if your TV supports them) instead of HDTV format resolutions (1080p or 720p which are just 1920x1080 and 1280x720 made easier for the average consumer to worry about)

Your picture quality probably looked less contrasted and the size of text and borders got smaller because there is no overscan. This is and SHOULD be the desired look of a gamer that wants his or her TV to look perfectly calibrated and have the least amount of input lag, along with the fact that the picture is now being shown at a 1:1 pixel ratio. After doing this, calibrate your TV with the TV Calibration indie game for MS points if you have access to Xbox Live, otherwise a calibration DVD/software will be needed or access to a TV menu option or channel with a color bars test.

The Xbox 360 is a computer because it has a processor and a graphics card so by either renaming your HDMI input label to PC or sending a PC resolution to your TV, your properly telling your TV to let the Xbox or PC do what it needs and not stand in the way with processing (Just show the image is what the PC and Xbox 360 want. they'll do the rest).You only need your TV's Enhancements when watching cable broadcasting

On my LG HDTV for example, i have a setting called Black Level. Low or High are the settings so if i set it to high, its expecting Native 0-255 content. if i set it to low, its expecting limited 16-235 content while enhancing 0-16 and 236-255 area's for the panel's native range. Samsungs have one too, but it shows either Normal (Full) or Low (Limited). Sony, Panasonic, Sharp, Toshiba might have one too, but not sure. Only Samsung and LG's are the ones i've used before.

ALWAYS choose RGB since its the uncompressed way of representing color information. The reason why YCbCr might look better on some TV's is because the limited range of YCbCr clips away the lower black and higher white and since colors are a component of white, it looks more vibrant because there is less black level than before. YCbCr is a variation of RGB that compresses RGB into a small size for being sent over cable broadcasting systems. Do not select Auto or Source on the Xbox 360either because the apps like Netflix or Hulu Plus convert it themselves so just leave it on RGB and use Expanded reference level.

When using a PC, on Nvidia cards only, use the SetDefaultFullRGBHDMI trick in the registry (just search for it on these forums). Do NOT use the EDID override trick. most HDMI users are using the HDMI for its audio. if you perform this EDID override, you lose audio. making your HDMI connection a plain ol' DVI one.

Cyberdyne · *Last edited by Cyberdyne; 07-10-2012 at 03:32.*

I don't know about hard to read, but it's very obnoxious.
And there are already many topics on this, like this one, or this one, that have the same solution as you pointed out. Only more quickly and less obnoxiously.

MrBonk · 07-10-2012, 04:07 | posts: 446

What's obnoxious about it?
Seems fine to me!

sapo_joe · 07-10-2012, 04:32 | posts: 172 | Location: Brazil

Quote:

On my LG HDTV for example, i have a setting called Black Level. Low or High are the settings so if i set it to high, its expecting Native 0-255 content. if i set it to low, its expecting limited 16-235 content while enhancing 0-16 and 236-255 area's for the panel's native range. Samsungs have one too, but it shows either Normal (Full) or Low (Limited). Sony, Panasonic, Sharp, Toshiba might have one too, but not sure. Only Samsung and LG's are the ones i've used before.

Actually, I have both LG and Samsung displays, and the settings work THE OPPOSITE as you stated. When black level is on LOW, the black level goes to the darkest, as the whites are more pronounced. That is the setting that turns off the display limitation on the dynamic range. I keep it on LOW on both displays, and the contrast is excellent on both. If I leave the settings on HIGH/NORMAL, the blacks become something greyish, and the whites get darker, which looks terrible. I could post pictures, but I'm too lazy to do that now (12:35AM here). You can always read the TV/Display manual for some more reference.

scitek · 07-10-2012, 14:01 | posts: 89

Is it possible to have resolutions you're downsampling with to also use the 0-255 color space? I was able to get 1080p to use it just fine, but the other resolutions were still using RGB limited.

Mufflore · 07-10-2012, 20:00 | posts: 9,543 | Location: UK

Read this yesterday and agree, good post op.

GiNaJuIcE · 07-11-2012, 00:15 | posts: 357 | Location: san antonio

dude one size font...

Sajittarius · *Last edited by Sajittarius; 07-11-2012 at 02:10.*

actually i have a samsung hdtv and i think what happens when you hit Low instead of Normal is the blacks look darker because its taking a black lvl 16 and dropping it to 0. Its crushing the blacks. I ended up putting it back to Normal so that dark scenes in movies would look ok. The samsung also has Dark level setting also that lets you fine tune it if you want just a little darker shading.

A good website to calibrate with is http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/ and go to the black level calibration (their sharpness test also helps ALOT).

NeoandGeo · 07-11-2012, 02:11 | posts: 281

Yeah, my Panasonic sets have a "black level" setting of light and dark. Dark almost always crushes blacks and is really only useful for 480p content over component (Wii!).

Mda400 · 07-11-2012, 21:44 | posts: 318 | Location: Minnesota

Quote:

Originally Posted by sapo_joe

Actually, I have both LG and Samsung displays, and the settings work THE OPPOSITE as you stated. When black level is on LOW, the black level goes to the darkest, as the whites are more pronounced. That is the setting that turns off the display limitation on the dynamic range. I keep it on LOW on both displays, and the contrast is excellent on both. If I leave the settings on HIGH/NORMAL, the blacks become something greyish, and the whites get darker, which looks terrible. I could post pictures, but I'm too lazy to do that now (12:35AM here). You can always read the TV/Display manual for some more reference.

Low is for 16-235 content. Try displaying a contrast/black level test and use full rgb and the low black level on your TV. It crushes blacks and bleeds whites so you lose detail. You need to set it on high if your already using 0-255 full rgb content so the black level tests look balanced between every shade of contrast.

Type lagom LCD picture calibration into Google. You'll see what I mean.

Mda400 · *Last edited by Mda400; 12-19-2012 at 14:05.*

*deleted*

Tyler Dalton · 07-12-2012, 07:28 | posts: 384 | Location: South Carolina

I found an easier solution for me. After I install my drivers I run a registry key I created then I restart. Here is the registry key:

Code:

Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\ControlSet001\Control\Class\{4D36E968-E325-11CE-BFC1-08002BE10318}\0000]
"SetDefaultFullRGBRangeOnHDMI"=dword:00000001

It may not be the same registry line for everyone, I found out the line on my system by following this guide off the nVidia forums, it was talking about the EIDI override, but I used the SetDefaultFullRGBRangeOnHDMI regedit instead.

Quote:

Run "Regedit" & Navigate to:

HK_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\ Video

Open the folder & check each folder (eg. HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Contro l\ Video\{E0CC2030-CCD8-49B9-8267-83140EF868CB} )

Check each sub folder called "0000" until you come across one which expands and includes the following:

>Display
>settings
>Uninstall
>Volatilesettings

Once you've located this, right click the "0000" folder and select "New" followed by "Binary Value".

Rename the value to:

OverrideEdidFlags0

and hit enter or okay

Next up, you need to right click the new key and select "Modify Binary Data" from the list.

You should have already written down the 4 numbers you've got from the Edid using the Pheonix utility.

the "*" is where you need to input your numbers followed by the rest so it looks something like:

*, *, *, *, 00, 00, ff, ff, 04, 00, 00, 00, 7e, 01, 00

Click okay once your done, close Regedit & reboot.

A longer way to do the same thing would be to:

Quote:

Run the driver installation file to the point where the file contents are extracted. Then cancel the rest of the installation.

Go to the folder where the files contents were extracted to.

Search for the file nv_disp.inf and open it.

Search for the section [nv_miscBase_addreg__01]

Under this section add the registry value:
HKR,,SetDefaultFullRGBRangeOnHDMI,%REG_DWORD%,1

Repeat this step for [nv_miscBase_addreg__02] and [nv_miscBase_addreg__03] and so on until all [nv_miscBase_addreg__xx" have the above registry value.

Save this .inf with the changes.

Run the setup.exe file in this folder to install the driver with the modified .inf. Each time you reload a driver, you will need to repeat this process.

Also, the registry key above only address Vista and Windows 7 drivers.

HonoredShadow · *Last edited by HonoredShadow; 07-12-2012 at 15:53.*

What about Panasonic Plasma's Mda400? I can relabel the Xbox to anything I wish but it makes no diffrence. Also their are labels like SAT and GAME etc... but no PC. I can user define one if I wish so I called it XBOX!

When I go into display on the XBox all I ever get is 480, 720, 1080, optimal (1080). That's it. I have tried HDMI 1 and HDMI 2. HDMI 1 has EC written next to it on the TV. No idea what that is. Their is a 3rd HDMI. Might try it. Guess I'm already running 1:1 then.

I do not see a 'low' 'high' option on this TV for black level but obviously their is on the XBox so I'm not sure what to use.

I do have an option on the TV for overscan on or off. I have turned it off.

Any suggestions very much appreciated.

Mda400 · *Last edited by Mda400; 07-31-2012 at 03:19.*

Quote:

Originally Posted by HonoredShadow

What about Panasonic Plasma's Mda400? I can relabel the Xbox to anything I wish but it makes no diffrence. Also their are labels like SAT and GAME etc... but no PC. I can user define one if I wish so I called it XBOX!

When I go into display on the XBox all I ever get is 480, 720, 1080, optimal (1080). That's it. I have tried HDMI 1 and HDMI 2. HDMI 1 has EC written next to it on the TV. No idea what that is. Their is a 3rd HDMI. Might try it. Guess I'm already running 1:1 then.

I do not see a 'low' 'high' option on this TV for black level but obviously their is on the XBox so I'm not sure what to use.

I do have an option on the TV for overscan on or off. I have turned it off.

Any suggestions very much appreciated.

If your xbox doesn't automatically show some PC resolutions and if your TV isnt 1080p (usually 1080p TV's have every feature to get full rgb), your TV might not support full RGB (but i begin to doubt that since Samsung is supposedly a quality brand).

I stated that every LCD TV (i haven't used a plasma, and i've used a projection and know that it doesn't work there since its analog color guns) supports Full RGB. plasma is a different type of panel.

If the standard black level on the xbox makes blacks look greyish, use Expanded and vice-versa.

You can try disabling Display Discovery (which is good to disable anyway if you know your TV's specifications since its induces a little input lag and doesn't allow some resolutions the TV can do).
All it does is put your Xbox 360 in manual mode without restriction and shows all PC resolutions under the HDTV ones, but do this carefully as choosing an unsupported resolution/audio mode can cause a blank screen/loss of audio (just wait 15 seconds if this happens and it will return to normal).

If you still aren't getting anywhere after these suggestions, my gamertag is MDA Cheezburger if you have LIVE.

HonoredShadow · 07-31-2012, 07:14 | posts: 2,372 | Location: Shropshire, UK

Thanks. My TV is 1080p plasma. Supports every resoultion I have thrown at it with a PC hooked up to it. Will try disabling Display Discovery.

Penal Stingray · 07-31-2012, 16:37 | posts: 961 | Location: JerZe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyler Dalton

I found an easier solution for me. After I install my drivers I run a registry key I created then I restart. Here is the registry key:

Code:

Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\ControlSet001\Control\Class\{4D36E968-E325-11CE-BFC1-08002BE10318}\0000]
"SetDefaultFullRGBRangeOnHDMI"=dword:00000001

It may not be the same registry line for everyone, I found out the line on my system by following this guide off the nVidia forums, it was talking about the EIDI override, but I used the SetDefaultFullRGBRangeOnHDMI regedit instead.

A longer way to do the same thing would be to:

Why do all that hustle when u can just

When using a PC, on Nvidia cards only, make a custom resolution and offset the refresh rate on that resolution by .001 so it reads 60.001hz (or any other refresh rate). What that does it makes it so the panel's picture quality in your TV or monitor won't be distorted by a substantially small change in refresh rate and since its so small, it won't be any more or less juddering to the human eye, all while overriding your TV's EDID chip. Just like the op said that is the easiest way to get full rgb and it does work now blacks are blacks not greyish and white are whiter.

NeoandGeo · 07-31-2012, 17:00 | posts: 281

I like the registry hack since I can have the single 1080p resolution and not have to manually select the slightly different one for all my games.

Supertribble · 07-31-2012, 22:05 | posts: 246 | Location: Earth

I have an older Sony 32V4000 tele that doesn't support full range RGB at all. None of these guides help whatsoever to be honest. Making custom resolutions help with my other PC that is connected to a monitor but reg hacks don't help provide proper RGB with my Sony television. I have to use ycbcr444. With my Radeon cards I can simply set it to limited RGB but Nvidia will never provide that option. >(

NeoandGeo · 07-31-2012, 22:34 | posts: 281

I thought setting it to ycbcr was telling it to use limited? Wouldn't that be the same as setting your Radeon to limited?

Supertribble · 07-31-2012, 22:52 | posts: 246 | Location: Earth

As I understand it ycbcr444 is a different standard to RGB and is an old broadcast standard used to save bandwidth or something like that. It certainly doesn't look remotely close to limited RGB using a Radeon.

Mda400 · 08-02-2012, 15:51 | posts: 318 | Location: Minnesota

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeoandGeo

I like the registry hack since I can have the single 1080p resolution and not have to manually select the slightly different one for all my games.

With the registry hack, make sure you're not using audio with that HDMI or it defeats the purpose of using HDMI anyway and you should just use DVI.

That's why the refresh trick is actually more efficient if you want to keep audio.

As with messing around for what each game uses for its resolution setting, if you're using 60hz as a refresh rate in games, the 60.001hz will still be selected over the regular 60hz refresh rate in games and on the desktop (try it. select the original 60hz refresh rate and watch the display not change from the full RGB 60.001hz one).

The control panel and windows detects the custom resolution as the same thing, but even the slight variance in hertz will make it prefer the higher one.

There is a trick I do to FORCE games to use the highest refresh rate available (say if the game doesn't work with 120hz non-3D by default) and it involves NV inspector, which a lot of enthusiasts use.

If you open up NV inspector and just stay on the global driver page of the elevated program settings, you go all the way down in the list of the page and there's a setting to override application refresh rate and you set it to "HIGHEST AVAILABLE".

I use this setting not for the 60hz, but "61" because for some reason, only when using HDMI but not VGA or DVI on my display, it allows me to go over 60hz by 1 hz and it actually reduces my display's input lag down to little or none at all. But to get that refresh rate, you either need to play a game where you can also choose refresh rate or override it with NV inspector.

Mda400 · 08-02-2012, 16:05 | posts: 318 | Location: Minnesota

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supertribble

As I understand it ycbcr444 is a different standard to RGB and is an old broadcast standard used to save bandwidth or something like that. It certainly doesn't look remotely close to limited RGB using a Radeon.

RGB isn't really "limited" but can be clipped to seem limited which isn't as pure as just setting your option to YCbCr444. That's why RGB limited studio in the CCC still looks different from YCbCr.

YCbCr is also mainly used to easily switch from an RGB pc/game output range to a video/bluray YCbCr range (because RGB is 0-255 and YCbCr is 16-235).

To witness an example, if you set an Xbox 360 to RGB color space and select the Standard reference (black) level, its a bit more range that setting the color space to Rec. 709 (YCbCr444) and the reference level to Expanded.

NeoandGeo · 08-02-2012, 16:19 | posts: 281

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mda400

With the registry hack, make sure you're not using audio with that HDMI or it defeats the purpose of using HDMI anyway and you should just use DVI.

What do you mean? I use audio over HDMI and get full range RGB with the registry hack just fine. We are talking about the "SetDefaultFullRGBRangeOnHDMI=1" right?

Mda400 · 08-02-2012, 16:33 | posts: 318 | Location: Minnesota

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeoandGeo

What do you mean? I use audio over HDMI and get full range RGB with the registry hack just fine. We are talking about the "SetDefaultFullRGBRangeOnHDMI=1" right?

Oh no i thought you ment the one where you edit 20 or so different DWORD registry entries. My fault.

So for my "rare" case, i use the refresh rate trick for the input lag reasons.

maco07 · *Last edited by maco07; 08-02-2012 at 22:28.*

Guys, innecessary RGB Expansion / Compression can produce color inaccuracy. Read this post!! http://www.avsforum.com/t/1381724/of...ampling-thread

Pattern to check it: http://www.avsforum.com/image/id/292210
... and:
http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/sharpness.php
http://www.avsforum.com/image/id/292178

... aaaand, if anyone speak spanish, here a post explained by myself: http://www.forodvdmania.com/phpBB3/v...89&hilit=+full