EU Plot to scrap Britan ?

[JohnMaclane]

Originally Posted by tuco

we have a currency, and its better than the euro. any country should have access to markets providing it complies with a few human rights etc. personally I dont see why we should be bailing out those who cant organise their own tax/pension/benefits system's. think us brits agree with the germans on that one at least.

how much money has malta had from the eu btw? close to 1 billion in 10 years. lol

How can one have a better currency?

Would you say the GBP is weaker then the USD even if the US dollar is has a lower conversion rate then the Euro?

Very outlandish comment.

Second line is even more out there. If the UK was not within the EU system then there would be a barrier between the markets making trade more difficult. A fact which is incontestable.

The break up of the Euro would cost way too much for you guys too and acting all nationalistic is not going to help much. The UK's economic fundamentals are not exactly solid; high public debt (higher then spains), high deficits (also higher then spains) and in recession.

The only reason the UK can run such deficits and not worry too much is because the central bank can act as lender of last resort (the ECB cannot) and the currency is not directly effected by Greece.

Is the last line is some sort of provocation? damn right my country is a net beneficiary from the EU system. The purchasing power and economy is not as developed as other more rich European countries. Given the ideals behind Europe which include solidarity and increasing development I do not find it scandalous that we get aid. The last thing I expected is a citizen from the UK is to give me attitude considering how your colonial government made sure that nothing bar military installations were developed to the detriment of the people, responsible for the above mentioned gap.

[tuco]

last point may have been rash, no offence meant (although being a citizen of the uk does not mean we cant have a diff opionion or be rude sometimes, thats just a stereotype. I may not be born here either.) I'd say that the US was stronger than the UK pound though. the debts we take are working for us, the interest is far lower and managed over a longer period than other euro countries. as it stands atm the euro currency is teetering on the edge, and until countries like spain/portugal/italy manage their economies better, there is no question of the uk joining the euro, who would if it would undermine an already winning formula?

yes the uk benefits with its euro friends, getting better rates/rules etc over non eu countries like the us or china. so it should do, it has skills and resourses that other eu contries benefit from. i dont want to sail off into the distance, where the grass appears to be greener, but its hard enough getting your voice heard in the uk, never mind giving more and more executive powers away.

[JohnMaclane]

Originally Posted by tuco

last point may have been rash, no offence meant (although being a citizen of the uk does not mean we cant have a diff opionion or be rude sometimes, thats just a stereotype. I may not be born here either.) I'd say that the US was stronger than the UK pound though. the debts we take are working for us, the interest is far lower and managed over a longer period than other euro countries. as it stands atm the euro currency is teetering on the edge, and until countries like spain/portugal/italy manage their economies better, there is no question of the uk joining the euro, who would if it would undermine an already winning formula?

yes the uk benefits with its euro friends, getting better rates/rules etc over non eu countries like the us or china. so it should do, it has skills and resourses that other eu contries benefit from. i dont want to sail off into the distance, where the grass appears to be greener, but its hard enough getting your voice heard in the uk, never mind giving more and more executive powers away.

UK has better interest rates then most EU countries and that is a fact. What I am trying to get across is why the UK has much better interest rates which is the bank of England. The bank just prints more money acting as the lender of last resort; this in turn increases inflation.

Britain is of the opinion (and correctly so) that central banks must play a larger role in the economy and that the ECB should be allowed to act as the lender of last resort, they view also is that Euro-bonds are the way forward.

The problem is that when faced between shaping up a fiscal compact where most EU members wanted to include controls on banks (Cameron being friendly with the city) he just packed up and left leaving the Germans and French free to implement the German plan.

Right now the EU is in one of those historical moments where things either break or move in the right direction. With Cameron's decision to ditch the fiscal compact talks and embrace his Euroscepticism all he has done is make British government isolated and excluded.

[tuco]

Originally Posted by JohnMaclane

all he has done is make British government isolated and excluded.

now that is bad.

[Risco]

The Germans have been trying to conquer and rule Europe via politics ever since they lost the war.

[Sash]

Originally Posted by Sash

sorry i was sarcastic, of course Sarkozy will win today (hence new president) because of his natinalistic mentality, french people like that, along with other europe countries it seems its a trend nowadays

ups, apparently, i was wrong

[JohnMaclane]

Originally Posted by Sash

ups, apparently, i was wrong

Yeah.

Expect markets to tumble this morning though however I think in the long run he might be beneficial to the whole situation.

Originally Posted by tuco

now that is bad.

It is very bad because at a very high European level we are missing the input of British government. If it wasn't for Italy prime ministers insistence that Britain be an "observer" to the talks there would have been zero British input.

Input which is extremely valuable considering British history of promoting trade as opposed to the Germans which are historically obsessed about inflation.

Originally Posted by Risco

The Germans have been trying to conquer and rule Europe via politics ever since they lost the war.

That's petty populism right there. The Germans aren't monsters and I get the attitude the German voter has towards other countries.

They were the only European country to realise the necessary labour and structural reforms early while others were spending like crazy and cooking the books (bad Greece). The problem is the German politicians which do not explain the crisis properly and how the Germans are partly responsible for the disaster.

They were one of the first countries to break the 3% rule making the rule useless.

[cartdog]

I dont know why people are so swept up in politics. Just watching everyone in france going phyco because of its new president, believing that this will bring the change they want. Every time its just the same repeat, when are people going to realise that democracy and politics are well dead, theres no man made rulership that will bring about a better life for all. Its been tryed for thousands of years and continues to fail.

[Black_ice_Spain]

Originally Posted by cartdog

I dont know why people are so swept up in politics. Just watching everyone in france going phyco because of its new president, believing that this will bring the change they want. Every time its just the same repeat, when are people going to realise that democracy and politics are well dead, theres no man made rulership that will bring about a better life for all. Its been tryed for thousands of years and continues to fail.

in spain they can, but they wont, we have like 3x amount of politics than other (and bigger) countries, all with their "official car"..., if only a president could remove all that crap under him....

[Mikedogg]

Originally Posted by cartdog

I dont know why people are so swept up in politics. Just watching everyone in france going phyco because of its new president, believing that this will bring the change they want. Every time its just the same repeat, when are people going to realise that democracy and politics are well dead, theres no man made rulership that will bring about a better life for all. Its been tryed for thousands of years and continues to fail.

All valid points. But it seems to me that "Politics" dictates the way we live; and effectively "The Rule of Law".

Given the world is more "Topsy Turvy" these days, it is really important to learn those two things, so you know where you stand if the worst were to happen.

I hate Politics as much as the next person, bit I feel one day I will need to know it (call me paranoid lol).

[JohnMaclane]

Originally Posted by cartdog

I dont know why people are so swept up in politics. Just watching everyone in france going phyco because of its new president, believing that this will bring the change they want. Every time its just the same repeat, when are people going to realise that democracy and politics are well dead, theres no man made rulership that will bring about a better life for all. Its been tryed for thousands of years and continues to fail.

The reason these particular elections are important are due to the current situation.

Democracy is also not dead.

[Denial]

Originally Posted by JohnMaclane

The reason these particular elections are important are due to the current situation.

Democracy is also not dead.

I definitely not dead, but depending upon where you are it's sure as **** rigged.

[JohnMaclane]

Originally Posted by Denial

I definitely not dead, but depending upon where you are it's sure as **** rigged.

Its the political class which can be crappy. If a country has strong controls on party financing and a good electoral system then its pretty OK.

[cartdog]

Now when I say democracy is dead, I dont mean that civil rights and human rights are dead in democeatic states, but rather what democracy stands for, rulership by people or persons. Ever form of rulership has not worked in eliminating the perils if our day or past days, so in this sense, democracy has ran its course. I heard a statment from a OWS member, who said, they dont want politions, they themselves want to govern there own lives. Dangerous thinking that is. At the end of the day, having a political system does offer certain securities ie: police, medical etc, things that provide a measure of stability.

[JohnMaclane]

Originally Posted by Denial

I definitely not dead, but depending upon where you are it's sure as **** rigged.

I just watched this today and thought of this post

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graph.../daily-chart-5

[tweakpower]

Originally Posted by cartdog

I dont know why people are so swept up in politics. Just watching everyone in france going phyco because of its new president, believing that this will bring the change they want. Every time its just the same repeat, when are people going to realise that democracy and politics are well dead, theres no man made rulership that will bring about a better life for all. Its been tryed for thousands of years and continues to fail.

I'm sad to inform you, but for something to be dead, it should live first j/k.

But truth to be told, democracy as ideology (not system) is alive sure, i always prefer socialism over democracy, it is much better (fair) ideology for actual people. Democracy have it's advantage, faster developing etc. but, it comes at high cost (for people).

Maybe I'm too radical on this topic, but for me best system is socio - dictatorship, it is way better then democracy, because, let's face it, large majority of people don't know what is good for them, it's not because they are stupid or something (part of it is because of that ofc.) but because simple fact that "normal" person is too busy or not interested to follow all things around them, and most dangerous thing is to allow them to vote .

As history have showed us, people will always choose wrong. Here was election also on may 6th, and, i was quite surprised by outcome. Basically, we had bunch of same groups on one side (pro-European), and only one party against (real oposition), and they didn't even pass census. Now, if that happens in France or UK or ..., i wouldn't be surprised, but here, that only proves mine point that people don't know what is good for them.