Guru3D.com Forums

Go Back   Guru3D.com Forums > Hardware > SSD and HDD storage
SSD and HDD storage This section covers storage hardware like SSDs HDDs, RAID chatter and everything related


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Which SSD to buy
Old
  (#1)
procol
Newbie
 
Videocard: Gigabyte 460GTX 1Gb
Processor: i5 2500k
Mainboard: Asus P8Z68-V
Memory: Kingston HyperX 8 GB 1600
Soundcard: Asus Xonar DG
PSU: OCZ Stealthstream 600W
Default Which SSD to buy - 03-10-2012, 18:26 | posts: 28

Hi
Im looking for a very reliable ssd it does not need to be the fastest or anything like that. It shuold be about 120gb size.
I have been looking at the OCZ agility 3.
Would that be a good choice or do u suggest some other ssd?
   
Reply With Quote
 
Old
  (#2)
ElementalDragon
Ancient Guru
 
ElementalDragon's Avatar
 
Videocard: eVGA GeForce GTX 760 ACX
Processor: Core i5 4670K
Mainboard: Asus Z87I-Deluxe
Memory: 16GB G.Skill RipJawsX
Soundcard: on-board
PSU: Seasonic 650W
Default 03-10-2012, 18:43 | posts: 8,701 | Location: Pennsylvania, USA

I'm actually using an Agility 3, and love it.... but i don't recall the P5N having SATA3 ports. So, either you can kinda prepare for a potential future upgrade and get the Agility 3, or if you don't plan on upgrading for quite some time, i'd say maybe the Agility/Vertex 2?
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#3)
procol
Newbie
 
Videocard: Gigabyte 460GTX 1Gb
Processor: i5 2500k
Mainboard: Asus P8Z68-V
Memory: Kingston HyperX 8 GB 1600
Soundcard: Asus Xonar DG
PSU: OCZ Stealthstream 600W
Default 03-10-2012, 18:46 | posts: 28

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElementalDragon View Post
I'm actually using an Agility 3, and love it.... but i don't recall the P5N having SATA3 ports. So, either you can kinda prepare for a potential future upgrade and get the Agility 3, or if you don't plan on upgrading for quite some time, i'd say maybe the Agility/Vertex 2?
ok nice, yeah im planning to upgrade to an Asus P8Z68-V LE and an i5 2500k
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#4)
ElementalDragon
Ancient Guru
 
ElementalDragon's Avatar
 
Videocard: eVGA GeForce GTX 760 ACX
Processor: Core i5 4670K
Mainboard: Asus Z87I-Deluxe
Memory: 16GB G.Skill RipJawsX
Soundcard: on-board
PSU: Seasonic 650W
Default 03-11-2012, 08:21 | posts: 8,701 | Location: Pennsylvania, USA

Cool. Well then, i'd say your best bet for speed-on-a-buck would be the Agility 3. I thought about going to the Vertex when i bought mine, but honestly couldn't justify the price bump.... and haven't had an issue with the Agility.
   
Reply With Quote
 
Old
  (#5)
procol
Newbie
 
Videocard: Gigabyte 460GTX 1Gb
Processor: i5 2500k
Mainboard: Asus P8Z68-V
Memory: Kingston HyperX 8 GB 1600
Soundcard: Asus Xonar DG
PSU: OCZ Stealthstream 600W
Default 03-11-2012, 14:00 | posts: 28

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElementalDragon View Post
Cool. Well then, i'd say your best bet for speed-on-a-buck would be the Agility 3. I thought about going to the Vertex when i bought mine, but honestly couldn't justify the price bump.... and haven't had an issue with the Agility.
ok great thx!
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#6)
Veteran
Ancient Guru
 
Veteran's Avatar
 
Videocard: 690@1372-Vmod on H20-24/7
Processor: 4930k@4.2ghz-1.05v-H20
Mainboard: R4BE@Monoblock-H20
Memory: 16Gb Mushkin Redline2133
Soundcard: SupremeFX-Sennheiser 350
PSU: Corsair AX 1200i
Default 03-11-2012, 23:41 | posts: 10,551 | Location: United kingdom

I heard good things about the M4 crucial,seems to be very stable and dont bsod as much as other drivers providing you upgrade the bios on the drive first...i hear bad things about ocz,even my real life friend had constant bsods with ocz ssd's so he sent it back and got a crucial.
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#7)
ElementalDragon
Ancient Guru
 
ElementalDragon's Avatar
 
Videocard: eVGA GeForce GTX 760 ACX
Processor: Core i5 4670K
Mainboard: Asus Z87I-Deluxe
Memory: 16GB G.Skill RipJawsX
Soundcard: on-board
PSU: Seasonic 650W
Default 03-12-2012, 05:13 | posts: 8,701 | Location: Pennsylvania, USA

I haven't had a BSOD with my Agility 3 yet.... and i've been using it for a solid couple months now.
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#8)
Lukc
Master Guru
 
Videocard: Asus560Ti 975/2150@1.037v
Processor: i5-2500k 4.5ghz@1.3v
Mainboard: ASUS P8Z68-V Pro
Memory: Vengeance 1600mHz 8GB
Soundcard: Xonar D1
PSU: Antec HCG 620W
Default 03-12-2012, 14:06 | posts: 346 | Location: Slovenija

crucial m4 is probably cheapest and really reliable...
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#9)
TDurden
Maha Guru
 
Videocard: Gigabyte HD7870 2GB
Processor: Core 2 Quad Q9550@3.4GHz
Mainboard: Asus P5E X38(X48)
Memory: 8GB A-DATA DDR2 800
Soundcard: X-Fi Xtreme Gamer
PSU: CM Real Power Pro m520
Default 03-12-2012, 16:36 | posts: 1,799 | Location: LT

Quote:
Originally Posted by procol View Post
Hi
Im looking for a very reliable ssd it does not need to be the fastest or anything like that. It shuold be about 120gb size.
I have been looking at the OCZ agility 3.
Would that be a good choice or do u suggest some other ssd?
I would say Intel 520 then. Intel is probably the only company I would buy a sandforce based drive atm.
Plus you get 5 years warranty. Even if you dont use it for that long you can sell it later for a higher price.
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#10)
ElementalDragon
Ancient Guru
 
ElementalDragon's Avatar
 
Videocard: eVGA GeForce GTX 760 ACX
Processor: Core i5 4670K
Mainboard: Asus Z87I-Deluxe
Memory: 16GB G.Skill RipJawsX
Soundcard: on-board
PSU: Seasonic 650W
Default 03-12-2012, 21:46 | posts: 8,701 | Location: Pennsylvania, USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukc View Post
crucial m4 is probably cheapest and really reliable...
wouldn't exactly say the cheapest.... their 128GB SSD is about the same price as Intel's 120GB SSD.

TDurden: Well... that's assuming you CAN sell the SSD. Selling storage media isn't usually the easiest thing to do, especially considering that SSD's do have a fairly limited lifespan, at least compared to HDD's. OCZ still gives you i believe a 3 year warranty. Pretty sure by the time anyone who purchased an SSD in the past year maybe will be using it for some time, and probably won't need to upgrade until SSD's are basically at the point where selling it to upgrade isn't really that worth it.
   
Reply With Quote
 
Old
  (#11)
Lukc
Master Guru
 
Videocard: Asus560Ti 975/2150@1.037v
Processor: i5-2500k 4.5ghz@1.3v
Mainboard: ASUS P8Z68-V Pro
Memory: Vengeance 1600mHz 8GB
Soundcard: Xonar D1
PSU: Antec HCG 620W
Default 03-12-2012, 23:19 | posts: 346 | Location: Slovenija

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElementalDragon View Post
wouldn't exactly say the cheapest.... their 128GB SSD is about the same price as Intel's 120GB SSD.

TDurden: Well... that's assuming you CAN sell the SSD. Selling storage media isn't usually the easiest thing to do, especially considering that SSD's do have a fairly limited lifespan, at least compared to HDD's. OCZ still gives you i believe a 3 year warranty. Pretty sure by the time anyone who purchased an SSD in the past year maybe will be using it for some time, and probably won't need to upgrade until SSD's are basically at the point where selling it to upgrade isn't really that worth it.
i can found M4 in my country 128gb version for 148eur. everything else is 175eur+..
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#12)
TDurden
Maha Guru
 
Videocard: Gigabyte HD7870 2GB
Processor: Core 2 Quad Q9550@3.4GHz
Mainboard: Asus P5E X38(X48)
Memory: 8GB A-DATA DDR2 800
Soundcard: X-Fi Xtreme Gamer
PSU: CM Real Power Pro m520
Default 03-12-2012, 23:29 | posts: 1,799 | Location: LT

Quote:
Originally Posted by ElementalDragon View Post
wouldn't exactly say the cheapest.... their 128GB SSD is about the same price as Intel's 120GB SSD.

TDurden: Well... that's assuming you CAN sell the SSD. Selling storage media isn't usually the easiest thing to do, especially considering that SSD's do have a fairly limited lifespan, at least compared to HDD's. OCZ still gives you i believe a 3 year warranty. Pretty sure by the time anyone who purchased an SSD in the past year maybe will be using it for some time, and probably won't need to upgrade until SSD's are basically at the point where selling it to upgrade isn't really that worth it.
Of course you can, I have sold many HDDs.
That said a good SSD should last as long as traditional HDD or longer.
I would buy Intel 520 not only because of 5 years warranty, but because it's fast and most of all should prove to be more reliable then other Sandforce based SSDs. If I would buy SSD now it would be my choice. But for now I already have one and it's also from Intel, albeit a bit slower one. I had zero problems with it and after 2.5 years reported wear out is minimal.
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#13)
Veteran
Ancient Guru
 
Veteran's Avatar
 
Videocard: 690@1372-Vmod on H20-24/7
Processor: 4930k@4.2ghz-1.05v-H20
Mainboard: R4BE@Monoblock-H20
Memory: 16Gb Mushkin Redline2133
Soundcard: SupremeFX-Sennheiser 350
PSU: Corsair AX 1200i
Default 03-13-2012, 00:17 | posts: 10,551 | Location: United kingdom

Quote:
Originally Posted by TDurden View Post
Of course you can, I have sold many HDDs.
That said a good SSD should last as long as traditional HDD or longer.
I would buy Intel 520 not only because of 5 years warranty, but because it's fast and most of all should prove to be more reliable then other Sandforce based SSDs. If I would buy SSD now it would be my choice. But for now I already have one and it's also from Intel, albeit a bit slower one. I had zero problems with it and after 2.5 years reported wear out is minimal.
So do the intel drives last longer than other drivers regarding deterioration over a few years?
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#14)
ElementalDragon
Ancient Guru
 
ElementalDragon's Avatar
 
Videocard: eVGA GeForce GTX 760 ACX
Processor: Core i5 4670K
Mainboard: Asus Z87I-Deluxe
Memory: 16GB G.Skill RipJawsX
Soundcard: on-board
PSU: Seasonic 650W
Default 03-13-2012, 00:32 | posts: 8,701 | Location: Pennsylvania, USA

I think that would basically be down to what chips are used in the drives... and even then it would probably be hard to tell if one might deteriorate faster than the other.
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#15)
TDurden
Maha Guru
 
Videocard: Gigabyte HD7870 2GB
Processor: Core 2 Quad Q9550@3.4GHz
Mainboard: Asus P5E X38(X48)
Memory: 8GB A-DATA DDR2 800
Soundcard: X-Fi Xtreme Gamer
PSU: CM Real Power Pro m520
Default 03-13-2012, 01:54 | posts: 1,799 | Location: LT

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veteran View Post
So do the intel drives last longer than other drivers regarding deterioration over a few years?
I don't know if Intel drives last longer than other SSDs but I would expect them to last at least last as long as other SSDs. Good quality memory chips and good wear leveling algorithms certainly helps.

After 2.5 years of daily usage I don't see any deterioration. Swap and hybernate/hybrid sleep files are also on SSD. Basically standard windows configuration, I didn't change anything. I wanted to see how SSD will last myself. And the results seem to be congruent with my calculations. Basically you need a decade or more to wear out a good SSD with standard usage.

In fact "a decade" might be conservative to say..

Lets do some math. MLC flash is rated for 10.000 write on average. Let's be a bit more conservative and say 5.000 cycles.
160GB x 5.000 = 800.000GB
Let's say daily writes are 10GB (with swap file etc). With relaxed wear leveling of 1.3 it makes 13GB per day.
That makes it 61.538 days or more then 168 years.
Did I miss something? Even if I did (please correct me) we are talking about quite a few years

What does my SSD show itself?
Media Wearout Indicator shows 97 (down from 99 the first day, I assume it starts showing 99 when you start using it)

Explanation from Intel SSD Toolbox help:

Quote:
Media Wearout Indicator

Reports the number of cycles the NAND media has undergone. The normalized value declines linearly from 100 to 1 as the average erase cycle count increases from 0 to the maximum rated cycles
Now as I said it actually starts from 99 so it means after two and half years value change by 2.
99 / 2 = 49.5
2.5 yeas * 49.5 = 123.75 years (!?)


EDIT: yeah, I missed something. In practical usage drive is partially filled with data and afaik it's not moved automatically unless files are deleted/changed or manual optimization is run. So drive will not always have all the space for wear leveling. But still.. not all space is used under normal usage pattern, files do change and SSDs actually have spare area specifically for wear leveling. Afaik my Intel X25-M G2 160GB has about 11GB of it. So we can still count many years, decades (?)

Last edited by TDurden; 03-13-2012 at 16:20.
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#16)
Veteran
Ancient Guru
 
Veteran's Avatar
 
Videocard: 690@1372-Vmod on H20-24/7
Processor: 4930k@4.2ghz-1.05v-H20
Mainboard: R4BE@Monoblock-H20
Memory: 16Gb Mushkin Redline2133
Soundcard: SupremeFX-Sennheiser 350
PSU: Corsair AX 1200i
Default 03-14-2012, 23:32 | posts: 10,551 | Location: United kingdom

Quote:
Originally Posted by TDurden View Post
I don't know if Intel drives last longer than other SSDs but I would expect them to last at least last as long as other SSDs. Good quality memory chips and good wear leveling algorithms certainly helps.

After 2.5 years of daily usage I don't see any deterioration. Swap and hybernate/hybrid sleep files are also on SSD. Basically standard windows configuration, I didn't change anything. I wanted to see how SSD will last myself. And the results seem to be congruent with my calculations. Basically you need a decade or more to wear out a good SSD with standard usage.

In fact "a decade" might be conservative to say..

Lets do some math. MLC flash is rated for 10.000 write on average. Let's be a bit more conservative and say 5.000 cycles.
160GB x 5.000 = 800.000GB
Let's say daily writes are 10GB (with swap file etc). With relaxed wear leveling of 1.3 it makes 13GB per day.
That makes it 61.538 days or more then 168 years.
Did I miss something? Even if I did (please correct me) we are talking about quite a few years

What does my SSD show itself?
Media Wearout Indicator shows 97 (down from 99 the first day, I assume it starts showing 99 when you start using it)

Explanation from Intel SSD Toolbox help:



Now as I said it actually starts from 99 so it means after two and half years value change by 2.
99 / 2 = 49.5
2.5 yeas * 49.5 = 123.75 years (!?)


EDIT: yeah, I missed something. In practical usage drive is partially filled with data and afaik it's not moved automatically unless files are deleted/changed or manual optimization is run. So drive will not always have all the space for wear leveling. But still.. not all space is used under normal usage pattern, files do change and SSDs actually have spare area specifically for wear leveling. Afaik my Intel X25-M G2 160GB has about 11GB of it. So we can still count many years, decades (?)
Thanks for sharing your experience with ssd's ill certainly keep Intel drives in mind and will do some thorough research on the whole ssd subject when the time comes of me actually purchasing
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#17)
Valagard
Maha Guru
 
Videocard: Asus DirectCU II 7970 Top
Processor: i7 4770K 4.3Ghz
Mainboard: ASUS Z87-Pro
Memory: 16Gig Corsair Vengeance
Soundcard: Sound Blaster Z
PSU: Corsair TX750
Default 03-15-2012, 00:18 | posts: 1,073

Price, Agility 3

Performance, Vertex 3, M4 or Intel 520

Longevity, Intel 520 or Vertex 3, Vertex 3 is second cause sometimes they use different chips then Intel, but -most- of the time they are the exact same chips
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#18)
Bentez
Maha Guru
 
Bentez's Avatar
 
Videocard: EVGA GTX 780 SLI | U2711
Processor: i5 2500K @ 4.8GHz | H100
Mainboard: Asus P8Z68-V PRO/GEN3
Memory: Corsair Vengeance 16GB
Soundcard: Asus Xonar DX
PSU: Corsair HX1050
Default 03-16-2012, 14:08 | posts: 1,193 | Location: Southampton, UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valagard View Post
Price, Agility 3

Performance, Vertex 3, M4 or Intel 520

Longevity, Intel 520 or Vertex 3, Vertex 3 is second cause sometimes they use different chips then Intel, but -most- of the time they are the exact same chips
What about Corsair's Force GT or Mushkin Chronos 120? I don't think theres much between any of the Sandforce drives to be honest
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#19)
Valagard
Maha Guru
 
Videocard: Asus DirectCU II 7970 Top
Processor: i7 4770K 4.3Ghz
Mainboard: ASUS Z87-Pro
Memory: 16Gig Corsair Vengeance
Soundcard: Sound Blaster Z
PSU: Corsair TX750
Default 03-17-2012, 07:42 | posts: 1,073

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bentez View Post
What about Corsair's Force GT or Mushkin Chronos 120? I don't think theres much between any of the Sandforce drives to be honest
Corsair Force GT can read large files faster then the Vertex 3, but for multiple access, jumping between tons of small files etc the Vertex 3 is faster
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#20)
Sash
Ancient Guru
 
Videocard: video
Processor: cpu
Mainboard:
Memory:
Soundcard:
PSU: psu
Default 04-03-2012, 16:33 | posts: 7,004

Kingston HyperX is not bad as well, very good performance, over 500MB/s on both reads and writes, it uses the latest sandforce 2281 controller, i dont know how it performs, no CPU to power my rig but i got it based on reviews, and the fact that is basically the same sandforce chip as in: crucial m4, ocz agility and vertex 3, intel 520, of all these SSDs, it has the best speeds at least in numbers, maybe the others are limited by firmware, don't know
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#21)
Lukc
Master Guru
 
Videocard: Asus560Ti 975/2150@1.037v
Processor: i5-2500k 4.5ghz@1.3v
Mainboard: ASUS P8Z68-V Pro
Memory: Vengeance 1600mHz 8GB
Soundcard: Xonar D1
PSU: Antec HCG 620W
Default 04-03-2012, 19:24 | posts: 346 | Location: Slovenija

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sash View Post
Kingston HyperX is not bad as well, very good performance, over 500MB/s on both reads and writes, it uses the latest sandforce 2281 controller, i dont know how it performs, no CPU to power my rig but i got it based on reviews, and the fact that is basically the same sandforce chip as in: crucial m4, ocz agility and vertex 3, intel 520, of all these SSDs, it has the best speeds at least in numbers, maybe the others are limited by firmware, don't know
i don't think m4 use sandforce..
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#22)
luque
Newbie
 
Videocard: MSI GTX580 Lightning
Processor: I7 2600K
Mainboard: ASUS P8P67 WS revolution
Memory: DDR3 Gskill 8G 2133
Soundcard: sound blaster Fatality
PSU: Hunkey 1200W
Default 04-03-2012, 19:31 | posts: 1 | Location: Colombia

M4 is marvell!!!!
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#23)
Sash
Ancient Guru
 
Videocard: video
Processor: cpu
Mainboard:
Memory:
Soundcard:
PSU: psu
Default 04-03-2012, 20:46 | posts: 7,004

yes, i confused crucial with corsair force, my conclusion and opinion is that any SSD with sandforce controller will suffice, technically they are all the same, the only diference is price and firmware

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/sto...iot-ssd_2.html

Last edited by Sash; 04-03-2012 at 20:52.
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#24)
Anfield82
Maha Guru
 
Anfield82's Avatar
 
Videocard: MSI 7970
Processor: i5 4670K @ 4.4
Mainboard: Gigabyte Z87-HD3
Memory: Vengeance Pro 8GB 2133MHz
Soundcard: On board
PSU: Corsair RM650
Default 04-03-2012, 21:20 | posts: 1,157 | Location: UK

I'm in the same situation. I've been leaning towards the OCZ Agility 3 because of the attractive price tag but I'm worried about some users having issues. The Crucial M4 is also another I've been looking at, a bit more expensive but more stable? Will the low write speed be a problem? I'm just a gamer, nothing more lol.

Would be grateful for some advice too.
   
Reply With Quote
Old
  (#25)
scheherazade
Maha Guru
 
Videocard: (.) an
Processor: sb-e water
Mainboard: p9x79 ws
Memory: 32 gig
Soundcard: spdif 4x12" driver towers
PSU: dual 1000w
Default 04-03-2012, 23:18 | posts: 2,038 | Location: NOVA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anfield82 View Post
I'm in the same situation. I've been leaning towards the OCZ Agility 3 because of the attractive price tag but I'm worried about some users having issues. The Crucial M4 is also another I've been looking at, a bit more expensive but more stable? Will the low write speed be a problem? I'm just a gamer, nothing more lol.

Would be grateful for some advice too.
You will never tell the difference between any of them under normal usage.

In theory, a game can load in 30 seconds from an HDD.
From a slow SSD, it may be 10 seconds.
From a fast SSD, it may be 9 seconds.
It just isn't a major issue - to the typical person.

Your typical writes are small, usually consisting of updating flags in the registry, or a few k in a temp file.

The user experience will mostly be determined by the 4K qd0 benchmarks - which are typically in the sub 100mb/s range, for essentially all SSDs.

There is no correlation between fast top speed, and fast 4k qd0 speed, which is why you see 'unimpressive' drives keep up with or beat the 'fast' drive when you do various workload benchmarks.

Speed is multifaceted. It's not only a matter of 'top speed'.
To use a car analogy : You wouldn't bring a 7000 HP top fuel drag racer to a race circuit.
Sure, it's a "FAST" car... but not the right kind of fast.
(i.e. a 1.6l hatch would out-pace a top fuel car around a race circuit - but vice versa you would not bring a 1.6l hatch to a drag race with a 7000 hp top fuel car.).

So for a drive, you have two ends of the speed spectrum.
Case #1: Fast at lots of small writes
Case #2: Fast at a few large writes
Being fast at one case does NOT mean being fast at the other case.

Furthermore, the vast majority of your computer's writes are case #1

The crucial M4 is 'just ok' at case #2 - but is quite good at case #1.

A vertex3 is not superior to the M4 in case #1.
For large files of a particular type*, the vertex 3 is superior to the M4 (i.e. a subset of case #2).

*The top speed of the Vertex3 is reached when copying files that are : A) large AND B) compressible.

Most large files are media files. Media files are [essentially] not compressible.
In those cases, the write speed of a Vertex3 is comparable with an M4.

Most small files are non-media files, and are compressible.
In those cases, the write speed of a Vertex3 is comparable with an M4.

Hence, when you benchmark them against each other using a mixed-task workload, the M4 ends up being a good match for the Vertex3 (or any SF2).

But if you're doing certain things, like moving large amounts of ISO files from place to place, all the time... then a vertex3 will be hands down superior.





What it boils down to is this :

99+% of the time, SSDs are indiscernibly fast.

-1% of the time you can tell one is faster than the other, and then it's over in a moment and you go back to the 99+% workload where again you can't tell them apart.

Advertised speeds focus on the rare 'best case scenarios'.

Speeds that matter (4k qd0, access time, good garbage-collection), are generally not advertised, and are usually "all over the map across all kinds of drives, with no correlation to the top speeds".

-scheherazade

Last edited by scheherazade; 04-03-2012 at 23:24.
   
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Skin developed by: vBStyles.com
Copyright (c) 1995-2014, All Rights Reserved. The Guru of 3D, the Hardware Guru, and 3D Guru are trademarks owned by Hilbert Hagedoorn.