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Grahf
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Default 12-01-2009, 16:29 | posts: 1,817 | Location: New England, USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBSCIX View Post
I am refering to directional audio from the rear. Not loud sounds. There is a difference.

Now, did you ever hear a person sneaking up behind you?

I'm not sure what you mean by that.
If you can hear someone shooting behind you with stereo speakers, then the stereo channel output is producing an in-game directional audio source from the rear (it's just doing a pretty crappy job).


Let me ask you guys this:
Have any of you ever tried CMSS-3D Headphone on stereo speakers?

Seems to me that would be a great way to (subjectively) test this a bit more definitively.
   
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ROBSCIX
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Default 12-01-2009, 16:31 | posts: 16,173 | Location: Guru3D Audio Lab

So your saying you can get clean directional audio from the rear ONLY, using stereo speakers?

Now, I have seen various tricks to emualte surround without using dedicated rear channels BUT nothing beat dedciated rear channels.
I think we are just refering to two different things...
I have always prefered surround sound system for the PC and find stereo systems lacking just for the reasons I presented.
You cannot get true directional based audio with just 2 speakers in the front.
   
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Grahf
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Default 12-01-2009, 16:36 | posts: 1,817 | Location: New England, USA

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBSCIX View Post
So your saying you can get clean directional audio from the rear ONLY, using stereo speakers?
No, I thought you were implying that sounds coming from rear directional sources don't exist on stereo channels (they do).

The issue is that 2 stereo channels of game audio information carry just as many sounds as 5.1 channels of game audio information. It may seem counter-intuitive, but the same sounds are indeed there. (In fact, that's the entire basis for CMSS-3D's stereo upmixing).

In other words, you won't miss what a character is saying behind you and to the left if you switch from 5.1 to stereo just because you now no longer have a rear left speaker to correctly emulate the true direction of the sound.

Last edited by Grahf; 12-01-2009 at 16:41.
   
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ROBSCIX
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Default 12-01-2009, 16:43 | posts: 16,173 | Location: Guru3D Audio Lab

..as I said, we are obviously refering to two different things.
When I think of rear sound, I think of a sound that is directly behind me and nowhere else.
Not a loud bang or explosions that evelopes the whole sound feild.
   
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Default 12-03-2009, 07:56 | posts: 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grahf View Post
The proper way:
- "Headphones" in Windows
- "Headphones" in your game
- "CMSS-3D Headphone" in the Creative audio panel
I use Windows 7 Prof. x64 and the problem is that there is NO Headphone-Setting in the Windows-Control-Panel. There is only Stereo, Quadrophonie, 5.1 and 7.1 ! I guess Stereo is the "hidden" setting for headphones ?

Edit:

I tested a little bit and found the best settings for me:

1. "5.1" in Windows
2. "Headphones" in the Creative Panel
3. Enable CMSS-3D Headphone in Panel

That's it

When I configure my PC like Grahf suggested it, it sounds a little bit ****ed up

Last edited by bergwerk; 12-04-2009 at 08:00.
   
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Retrolock
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Default 12-08-2009, 15:19 | posts: 595 | Location: homeless

One member posted in head-fi forums that the cmss-3d messes up with positional audio. You're a member there also robscix, what can you say about that, thanks!
   
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ROBSCIX
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Default 12-08-2009, 15:27 | posts: 16,173 | Location: Guru3D Audio Lab

..not that I have noticed when playing games and using these technologies.
   
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Default Positional - 12-08-2009, 15:42 | posts: 71 | Location: Montana

I have been using the Auzen Forte/Sennheisser PC350 for months now with the stickied setup. In the CoD series, the CMSS-3D Headphone works GREAT!! Easy to position the enemy and use AUDIO as an advantage.


FWIW Ned
   
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Default 12-09-2009, 11:23 | posts: 2 | Location: Finland

I have Auzentech X-Fi Forte 7.1 souncard and Im wondering what is the best setup for that with stereoheadset.
Yesterday I tried changin speakersettings headphones -> 5.1 in OS and Cod4 setup. Im running Xp by the way....

Still I think that the best result comes with Grahfs setup = Everything headphones and 2 channels in COD 4 setup. CMSS-3D is on. Crystalizer is off.
If I change 5.1 in gamesetup, I dont get better position. Maybe a little bit louder sounds or maybe not. I might be all in my mind, who knows

Am I only who thinks that my setup gives best audio positioning result on COD 4 with XP??

Ill test more tonight... specially with 5.1 setup on in gamesetup.

OT sorry about my english... its bit rusty
   
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ROBSCIX
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Default 12-09-2009, 16:54 | posts: 16,173 | Location: Guru3D Audio Lab

Use the setup that works the best for you.
   
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  (#236)
Qulle
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Default 12-10-2009, 07:00 | posts: 2 | Location: Finland

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBSCIX View Post
Use the setup that works the best for you.
Yeah.
   
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spacebulate03
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Default 12-10-2009, 11:53 | posts: 5

can I get good positional sound if I bought myself a decent sound card and senn hd 201?
   
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limitlessOC
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Default 12-11-2009, 15:58 | posts: 11

Hey all

First time poster here

I just recently got the AuzenTech Forte 7.1 paired with Audio Technica ATH-AD700 headphones

In all honesty, i'm not too impressed by the 3D positioning i'm getting in games. The sound clarity is great but when I hear footsteps I can't tell which directions they're coming from. Some are pretty obvous (e.g. behind) but if it's left/right/up/down becomes much tougher to distinguish. Leads me to believe I may have this thing setup wrong.

Current settings (mainly call of duty 4 modern war 1):

Windows: set to 5.1 surround
In-game: set to 5.1 surround, 80% volume, EQ on
Console Launcher:
  • Game mode
  • Headphones option
  • CMSS 3D On, with both microFX and elevation manually turned on
  • EAX off
  • Crystallizer off
  • EQ off
  • Bass boost off
  • SVM off

Any suggestions?
   
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ROBSCIX
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Default 12-11-2009, 16:39 | posts: 16,173 | Location: Guru3D Audio Lab

For games you would want to have EAX enabled.
   
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limitlessOC
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Default 12-11-2009, 17:11 | posts: 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBSCIX View Post
For games you would want to have EAX enabled.
Does it matter if the game does not support it (I don't believe COD does unless I'm wrong)? If it's enabled, do I need to tweak anything else or leave all else on default?

Edit -- also, I notice folks going with 5.1 when tweaking the in-game/surround out settings. Is the reason for going 5.1 due to the fact that not that many games support 7.1? If the game supports 7.1, should I choose that instead?

Last edited by limitlessOC; 12-11-2009 at 17:35.
   
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ROBSCIX
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Default 12-11-2009, 17:45 | posts: 16,173 | Location: Guru3D Audio Lab

No, not if it doesn't support it but I am pretty sure that COD does support atleast EAX 1,2. -can't be 100% sure.
I cannot be sure because I have it but it is not installed.
COD 2 is one of my favorites though.
Check the audio pane and see if there is an EAX option there.
There is really only two ways to set up CMSS3D for headphones as outlined.
One is set everything for surround and set the card for headphones and the other is to set everything for headphone...try both and see which fits you the best.

Last edited by ROBSCIX; 12-11-2009 at 17:48.
   
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Default 01-04-2010, 11:27 | posts: 293 | Location: Australia

hi
i have x-fi titanium fatal1ty pro sound card and here are my settings for gaming
game mode
CMSS-3D enabled
Crystalizer Enablied
EQ disabled
EAX enabled
Headphone
Sync with Control panel is ticked/unticked
in games it sounds like surround however i do not get very clear audio, it is not echoing & stuff like that but i hear treble more than the bass and the volume is not as loud compared to the 2/2.1 speaker setup
with the 2/2.1 speaker setup i do not get very accurate surround sound but it seems the treble&bass are more balanced and sounds much better than the headphone setup
im i doing something wrong with the settings?

im using xp sp3 and creative earplugs
   
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  (#243)
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Default 01-05-2010, 17:40 | posts: 184 | Location: Earth

There is way too much misinformation in this thread to warrent a sticky. The most useful information I've found when I was comparing Dolby Headphone and CMSS-3D Headphone was on wikipedia. I'll quote...

Quote:
CMSS-3DHeadphone
This is available when the Creative Control Panel is set to Headphones. When enabled, this setting creates virtual 3D positional audio via synthesized binaural cues (see Sound localization and HRTF). If the application generating the audio uses a hardware-accelerated 3D audio API (i.e. DirectSound3D or OpenAL), the input for the binaural synthesis algorithms consists of up to 128 sound sources positioned arbitrarily in 3D space. If the application instead generates multi-channel sound directly (e.g. a media player app or a game with software-based audio processing), the input for the binaural synthesis algorithms consist of the 4 to 7 positional sound sources associated with the application's selected speaker configuration. Note that the application's speaker configuration in this case is most often tied to the Windows speaker setting. Thus, in order to output 3D positional headphone sound from an application which does NOT use a hardware-accelerated 3D audio API, the application must be configured for multi-channel output and the Creative control panel must be configured for Headphones. In order to do this, "Synchronize with Control Panel" must be unchecked in the X-Fi configuration.

MacroFX
If the application uses a hardware-accelerated 3D audio API, enabling this setting will apply special filtering algorithms in order to improve localization for sound sources located very close to the listener.

ElevationFilter
If the application uses a hardware-accelerated 3D audio API, enabling this setting will apply special filtering algorithms in order to improve localization for sound sources located above or below the listener.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_B...SS-3DHeadphone

Last edited by AdamK47; 01-05-2010 at 17:42.
   
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  (#244)
ROBSCIX
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Default 01-05-2010, 18:52 | posts: 16,173 | Location: Guru3D Audio Lab

The sticky was put here so people can read about different peoples experiences with the technology or look for solutions if they are having difficulty.
There are the two approaches people use, setting everything for cans or setting game,windows for surround and the card for headphones.
There is really only the two approaches to using the setting and both have been talked about.
To note, Since Wikki, can be edited by anybody, it has become a source of much incorrect information and usually not taken as the gospel truth.
   
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Amatsu
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Default 01-15-2010, 06:50 | posts: 13

Hi. I would like to share my experience and pains on this matter.

It's been around 2 years since I bought the X-Fi and started gaming using serious headphones. Currently I'm using the Windows 7, X-Fi Music and Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro headphones. I have found that the best setup for me is using 2.1 speakers on the Creative control panel and normal CMSS-3D, and then setting the game to 5.1, this way I get a very good 3D positioning and don't sacrifice sound quality.

I could be wrong but I have this theory that CMSS-3D headphones is more useful if you have low-end headphones. I think that if you have high quality headphones you don't really need to use this option, it messes the sound too much, I believe that by using 2.1 and the normal CMSS3D allows your high-end headphones capabilities in games (soundstage...etc) to shine, and that is why you get about the same 3D positioning as CMSS-3D - Headphones but without quality loss if configured right.

Just to be clear on my settings: Windows 7 sound is set on Stereo, creative control panel is on Gaming Mode and 2.1 speakers with CMSS-3D and EAX activated. Now the important part is you need to configure the game you are going to play to 5.1. Just remember to use Creative Alchemy if you use a game using EAX and activate it inside the program.
This has one drawback though, and it's that some games don't let you configure how many speakers you have (Borderlands, Oblivion, Dragon Age...), I'm not totally sure but I think these kind of games look into your Windows Configuration and use that information to reproduce the audio, unfortunately you can't unlink the Windows Configuration with the Creative Control Panel on Vista/7 *(1) unless you use the headphones option in the Creative CP, so if you change the Creative CP to stereo it will change the Windows config automatically to the same option, unless you use the headphones option in the Creative CP (as stated in the first post).

In Windows XP it should be the same configuration, except on XP you can unlink the Creative control panel and the Windows configuration, so you can set up Windows as 5.1 speakers and Creative CP as 2.1.

Now, about the games you can't configure the sound...
In Borderlands and Dragon Age I haven't managed to get the same good positioning as the rest and I'm afraid it might be for that reason I was complaining before, that you can't unlink the 2 configs in Vista/7, so the game might be thinking that you have only stereo speakers.

At least with Borderlands it would be weird if it were the sound engine's fault because I recently played Bioshock which also uses Unreal Engine, but since this game let's you configure the speakers I had good positioning in the 5.1 mode.

In Oblivion's case, if I install Creative Alchemy and enable the game inside the program (it enables EAX capabilities on Vista/7) I can have amazing positioning even though I haven't configured 5.1 anywhere, just by enabling EAX.

Well anyway, I'm going to keep experimenting with future games and we'll see what results I'll have. So far I'm having fun testing. If you have any opinion on this let me know.
   
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Default 01-15-2010, 09:28 | posts: 3,600 | Location: Narnia

I use similar headphones although I have not tested them with CMSS-3D, but when I tried it on my Sennheiser HD 595 headphones (better headphones for gaming perhaps), I did not like how it messed with the sound, I haven't used CMSS-3D for quite some time because of that.

I might test it again in the future, thanks for sharing your experiences, Amatsu.
   
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Default 01-18-2010, 02:49 | posts: 189 | Location: Portugal

I was using the Headphones setting with CMSS3D and games set to 5.1 but... I wasn't happy with the sound quality. It felt like I was losing detailed and getting choppy sounds...

But setting to 2.1 with CMSS-3D on and game settings to 5.1 and the sound quality is 100% better with me. It's really noticable in Source games for me.

For example TF2, the bass feels right and explosions dont feel "clipped" or "choppy" it all sounds right.

However I feel the positional audio is a bit off... mainly because 2.1 is set to have the spakers at 60 angles instead of 90 no?
   
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Amatsu
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Default 01-20-2010, 10:35 | posts: 13

Quote:
Originally Posted by Felix View Post
I was using the Headphones setting with CMSS3D and games set to 5.1 but... I wasn't happy with the sound quality. It felt like I was losing detailed and getting choppy sounds...

But setting to 2.1 with CMSS-3D on and game settings to 5.1 and the sound quality is 100% better with me. It's really noticable in Source games for me.

For example TF2, the bass feels right and explosions dont feel "clipped" or "choppy" it all sounds right.

However I feel the positional audio is a bit off... mainly because 2.1 is set to have the spakers at 60 angles instead of 90 no?
I don't know if that is the cause, but with the THX Console you can change these settings if you'd like to try. I just found this image:

[IMG]http://******************/site/brztech/THX_Setup.gif[/IMG]

Look into the speakers position seccion.

You might have to install the THX console separately.
   
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Default 01-20-2010, 13:31 | posts: 5,410 | Location: Michigan,usa

Quote:
Originally Posted by limitlessOC View Post
Hey all

First time poster here

I just recently got the AuzenTech Forte 7.1 paired with Audio Technica ATH-AD700 headphones

In all honesty, i'm not too impressed by the 3D positioning i'm getting in games. The sound clarity is great but when I hear footsteps I can't tell which directions they're coming from. Some are pretty obvous (e.g. behind) but if it's left/right/up/down becomes much tougher to distinguish. Leads me to believe I may have this thing setup wrong.

Current settings (mainly call of duty 4 modern war 1):

Windows: set to 5.1 surround
In-game: set to 5.1 surround, 80% volume, EQ on
Console Launcher:
  • Game mode
  • Headphones option
  • CMSS 3D On, with both microFX and elevation manually turned on
  • EAX off
  • Crystallizer off
  • EQ off
  • Bass boost off
  • SVM off

Any suggestions?
I Used to own the same headphones my self and the AD700s dont work that well with CMSS3D because of there sound stage being so wide I used to have them my self.I had to use CMSS and 2.1 speaker setting to get them right. Then I also edited the THX.ini spreaker direction and set them to 90 degrees. THe AD700 worked the best set this way.I even had another friend use this same setting and found this way to work the best for him to.

Headphone mode kills the AD700 sound stage and making them not sound right.If you cant or dont have a THX.ini file to edit even after opening the thx option. Then your gonna just have to use 2.1 speakers setting and use CMSS3D normal. I tried diffent settigns with the AD700 and found doing this being the best. I have played with just 2.1 speaker settings and still heard behind me on the AD700 since they have a huge and wide sound stage.

Also EAX has to be turned on in the game mode or you will not get any EAX effects.

Last edited by GenClaymore; 01-20-2010 at 13:38.
   
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  (#250)
Felix
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Default 01-20-2010, 18:30 | posts: 189 | Location: Portugal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amatsu View Post
I don't know if that is the cause, but with the THX Console you can change these settings if you'd like to try. I just found this image:

[IMG]http://******************/site/brztech/THX_Setup.gif[/IMG]

Look into the speakers position seccion.

You might have to install the THX console separately.
I have no THX console.
How do I activate it?

Because I had to change back to Headphone since I was getting the positions all wrong
   
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