Logitech G602 Wireless Gaming Mouse

Discussion in 'Frontpage news' started by Hilbert Hagedoorn, Aug 27, 2013.

  1. Mineria

    Mineria Ancient Guru

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    Same as my old X8, but the 2500 dpi would kill it for me, my hand has gotten to lazy :D
     
  2. XeoNoX

    XeoNoX Member

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    where or what site did u guys see the specs for the polling rate listed for the G602?
     
  3. tsunami231

    tsunami231 Ancient Guru

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    I do like that mouse but i think i done with wireless (have MX 1100), It not the latency that bothers me cause i really dont see any, Its the fact the Mouse is no farther then 1 foot from the receiver and it at random got all jumpy on the screen like its 10+ feet away

    I just need to find mouse with simalar button locations same amount and must have tilt wheel with customizable buttons. Going optical too cause i just realized what that negative acceleration issue is with laser it annoys me but no where near as much as that random mouse jumpy movements
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2013
  4. Ven0m

    Ven0m Ancient Guru

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    From Logitech site that DribbelDog linked: http://gaming.logitech.com/en-us/product/g602-wireless-gaming-mouse

    also
    This mouse looks really inteteresting if you're not digging high-dpi.
     

  5. Ven0m

    Ven0m Ancient Guru

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    I don't know how it works with Logitech, but I've just tested my Mamba and it worked flawlessly from around 10ft between receiver and mouse. There are several wireless devices in this apt, as well as nearby wifi networks, but of course "your mileage may vary".
     
  6. tsunami231

    tsunami231 Ancient Guru

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    lag free sure i dont see any lag per say in the mouse but even with 2.4ghz my current mouse gets randomly jumpy movement and it no more then 1 foot from the reciever. I would love wired verison of those, but only if they add tilt wheel to it. Tilt wheel is a must imo now
     
  7. Ven0m

    Ven0m Ancient Guru

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    I know what you mean. I had various wireless mice and they were picky. I also have some wireless issues with Orochi 2013, even not related to the distance... it just seems to be in good or bad mood.

    So:
    - my Mamba 2012 - perfect for even 3 meters (haven't tried more)
    - my Orochi 2013 - good in general, but sometimes loses sync or gets lag
    - brother's 1st G700 - kinda good up to around 1 meter, prefers to stay around 0.5m from the receiver, sometimes doesn't want to work well, possible jitter
    - brother's 2nd G700 - works really well wired and wireless, haven't tried for distance longer than 1.5m
    - G700s - you can see some happy people in this thread
    - G602 - you'd have to try, but I bet it to be just a notch worse than G700

    You could eventually use USB extension cable and always keep the receiver in 1m range for the best performance
     
  8. EJocys

    EJocys Guest

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    It is possible to have in-game low-sensitivity and high mouse DPI. High DPI is required for better experience, because low mouse DPI results in:

    a) poor video quality (pixel jump effect) and
    b) bad aim at small targets.

    In many cases you have to edit game configuration file manually because most games doesn't support high sensitivity mouse properly through graphical user interface. For games which support standards (Counterstrike, Unreal, Doom, Quake, Team Fortress, Call of Duty, ...) I use these settings:

    Mouse DPI = 3200
    In-Game Sensitivity = 0.5
    Horizontal FOV = 80°
    360° Turn = 10.8"
    Windows Pointer Speed = 5/10 (Sensitivity: 1.000)

    This profile allows to turn 360 degrees in the game by swiping mouse 10.8 inches horizontally on the desk (which is considered low-sensitivity). In-game world turns by half (1/2) pixel which results in very smooth video.

    For example: if you have Full HD monitor (1920x1080), 10.8" per 360 degree turn and mouse sensitivity set to 400 DPI, then you gave to set In-Game sensitivity to 4.0 which makes your in-game cursor jump by 4 pixels when you move your mouse. For example: sometimes it makes impossible to hit a target with the sniper rifle when head of the enemy is smaller than 2x2 pixels.

    This means that 1600 is the minimum DPI for low-sensitivity gamer who plays on Full HD monitor (1 mouse dot ~= 1 screen pixel).

    P.S.: Of course there are some games whose developers have no clue (or don't care) on how to take advantage of high-definition of gaming grade mouse. For example: PlanetSide 2 and Battlefield 3 - it just boggles my mind how such amazing games can have such horrible implementations for mouse.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2013
  9. MasterBash

    MasterBash Guest

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    You are wrong on the low dpi.

    Low sensitivity is good for small targets. I use default settings in Windows (Which is 6/11 for 1:1) to avoid any scaling. No idea where you get your 5/10... In a game like CS, I am gonna use a sensitivity of 1.

    In fact, the closest your mouse will be to the native DPI, the better it is, since it reduces errors in calculations. The further from the native DPI you are, the more noise and ripples you have. A mouse is not capable of 3200 DPI (natively), it is being scaled, by pixel subdivision.

    The problem with low DPI is pixel walk (when the sensor doesnt know if it should move or not).

    It may not be as much of a problem with the recent gaming mouse though.

    Anything that use scaling (up or down) is bad to me. I just cant get used to 800dpi though, which is the native DPI of the G400.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2013
  10. EJocys

    EJocys Guest

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    Lets do some simple math. If you mouse is set to 400 DPI and you want to turn 360 degrees by sliding your mouse on the desk 10.8 inches then: Mouse dots per 360° = 400 DPI * 10.8" = 4320 dots.

    If you have 1920x1080 monitor, and in-game horizontal field of view set to 80 degrees then: Number of screen pixels per 360° = 360° / 80° * 1920px = 8640

    This means that mouse reports only 4320 dots when you turn 360 degrees in game, but 8640 pixels will slide trough the center of your screen or 1 mouse dot = 2 screen pixels (not 4px as I was writing in my previous post). This is "pixel jump" (bad video quality and bad aiming at small, pixel size, targets).

    This is true for "low in-game sensitivity" but not for "low mouse sensitivity".

    5/10 is from programmers point of view. You can adjust mouse sensitivity with double precision through Windows API function SystemParametersInfo(SPI_SETMOUSESPEED, 0, speed, 0) where speed value ranges between 1 (slowest) and 20 (fastest). A value of 10 is the default.

    6/11 remins me "these go to eleven" scene from "This Is Spinal Tap" movie :).

    Logitech G700 is using Avago ADNS-9500 sensor with resolution up to 5700cpi with ~90cpi step.

    Logitech G700s is using Avago ADNS-9800 sensor with resolution up to 8200cpi with ~200cpi step.

    It's hard to find information but I assume any resolution which falls into step is native. Theoretically, 6400 DPI would be the best resolution on G700s for 10.8" full 360° turn on 1920x1080px monitor with 80° degree FOV. Mouse would have to report 8 dots for in-game world to move by 1 pixel on the screen.

    At the moment I am using G700 and 3200 DPI have pretty amazing and smooth video transition effect when you slowly move mouse, because in-game world moves by 1/4 pixels and gun reticle doesn't jump from one pixel to another. Of course, it is irrelevant in CoD close combat battles, when mouse flies from one side of the desk to another and low monitor rate of 60Hz (or 120Hz) results in same "pixel jump" effect :).
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2013

  11. MasterBash

    MasterBash Guest

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    I mean, low dpi does not cause any video problems or whatever, the only thing that can happen is pixel walking, I wasnt questioning your calculations, but I didn't look at them. Not everyone needs to do a 360 or have a small mousepad. I got a QcK+ btw.

    Many games at 1 sensitivity (or default) use 1:1 scaling. It causes no problems with hitting small targets, no matter your DPI. Sure with low sensitivity you can have a problem with pixel walking, but not pixel skipping (Which I guess is what you mean by pixel jumping). The opposite is true, higher than native DPI may create a noise problem and cause ripple effect, which will be a lot less accurate.

    The G700 suffers from positive acceleration, it uses the same sensor as the defective G500. The CPI steppings does not mean the sensor will be perfectly fine, its merely to reduce calculation errors. There is no way to fit a 8200 native DPI sensor into a mouse.

    Its a myth that higher DPI = more accurate. DPI doesn't affect accuracy, in fact it can have bad effects when using a DPI far from the native sensor resolution.

    Edit: I read your calculations and no, it would be a 180 degrees.
    Mouse dots per 360° = 400 DPI * 10.8" = 4320 dots.

    Its total mouse dots (I guess you can call this Counts Per 10.8", lol), not mouse dots per 360 degrees. If I move 4320 dots that means I will move half of 360 degrees (180). Your mouse dots will tell you how many pixels on the screen you are gonna move by depending on your movement on your mousepad. 400 DPI = 400 pixels on the screen for every inch you move your mouse on your mousepad. Thats it. Hence the 4320 over 10.8". DPI does NOT change accuracy, its simply mouse sensitivity. Don't worry, you don't move at 1/4 of a pixel.

    If DPI would be accuracy, everyone would be using max DPI, but thats not the case. Change it... You will see, it makes your mouse slower or faster, it has nothing to do with accuracy.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2013
  12. Enticles

    Enticles Guest

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    this really infuriated me, i picked up a Mamba 2012 2 - 3 months before synapse 2.0 got released, they included the Deathadder in the list of supported devices but left out the at-the-time top of the line mouse!?

    i actually contacted razer asking why they didnt add support and got told to like it or lump it. Razer as a company really annoy the hell out of me (i had a nightmare trying to RMA my first mamba when it broke - they tried telling me that because i live in Yellowknife that i bought a bogus razer-clone mouse!).

    their support is beyond awful, and they have a reputation for cheaply made devices charged at a huge premium. I was looking to replace my G9X with a Performance MX wireless mouse but nowhere in town had one... the only gaming grade wireless mouse that was available was - thats right ... the razer mamba 2012.

    that being said, the second one works very well and im actually happy with it... but i'll be damned if i buy another razer product in my life because of the way they treat their customers!
     
  13. EJocys

    EJocys Guest

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    Read conditions above my line: "If you mouse is set to 400 DPI and you want to turn 360 degrees."

    You will turn 360° if you set in-game mouse sensitivity to 2.000000 (1 mouse dot = 2 screen pixels)

    Incorrect. With 3200 DPI, Windows Pointer sensitivity 1.0 and in-game sensitivity 0.25 (actual value 0.5) every dot/count reported from mouse on Full HD monitor is converted to 1/4 degree turn (radian equivalent) in-game (different in some games). If everything is set right then you can see effect of 1/4 movement on the screen.

    There are plenty of obstacles which prevents and discourages people from doing this like: requirement to have multiple mouse profiles, editing game files, some games doesn't support it and etc...
     
  14. MasterBash

    MasterBash Guest

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    If you put your sensitivity to 2, then yes. Your calculations did not imply that though, like I said you cant put Counts per 360 degrees (Like the name implies, it would be the amount of pixels required for a 360 anyway, which isnt even close to what you calculated...). All you did was calculate the amount of Counts over your 10.8" mousepad.

    3200DPI with 0.25 sens will simply be a 360. So again, only 8460 will be reported. I don't remember having my mouse plugged into my monitor but I do remember my OS/games deciding what to output. In fact, this can actually cause ripple due to high DPI, which will may or may not make it worse. Add to that a sensor that has positive acceleration...

    Its the exact same as if you would use 800dpi and a sens of 1. In fact, the only thing you are doing is taking the reports of the mouse and let the software scale it down, which is worse than keeping 1:1 ratios, due to potentially having more errors. Even better would be to use raw input, then that would end you up with 4 times the sensivity that you already have (Will have to lower DPI to compensate).

    And you are wrong, DPI does not increase accuracy, its a myth. Let it die already. Its only sensitivity. Not everything you read over the internet is true. I know people who have no idea how a mouse works will believe a higher DPI number is more accurate. Not the case at ALL.

    Dont tell others DPI increase accuracy please, people who got no clue may believe those misinformations. That will only create even more people who are in the wrong.

    DPI = Dots per inch. 400 DPI = 400 pixels for every inch on your mousepad. It HAS nothing to do with accuracy at all. Sensitivity only. Even the name implies that. I have no idea where this myth of DPI = accuracy comes from, but the guy who started that doesnt know much.

    I guess some people are falling for marketing bull****, they believe a bigger number is better. How DPI works clearly shows that it does not increase accuracy and only sensitivity. Like I said, even the name implies it increases sensitivity.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2013
  15. Ven0m

    Ven0m Ancient Guru

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    Regarding accuracy, it's also important how you recalculate pixels to degrees.
    Pixels define granularity, so if you have 4000dpi and 800dpi, you have every inch of mouse move divided into 4000 or 800 segments.

    Then it's all about developers. If they use proper floating point calculations, then using 4k with 1/5 of in-game sensitivity would result in 5x greater position report density. If developers decide for some weird calculations or to store data with too high granularity, going beyond some point in DPI will not give anything.

    So we're talking about pixels for 360°, or just any other nominal value, but assuming one can adjust sensitivity properly, you can also measure number of pixels / individual reports for mouse travel distance, as it will map linearly for in-game angle assuming defined sensitivity.

    Let's say that devs have done everything to achieve the greatest precision possible. In such case maximizing device DPI and decreasing in-game sensitivity will result in better accuracy as it will increase the in-game angular resolution in shooters. However there will be little to no difference for a gamer who moves their mouse a lot. Let's say you need 12" for a full 360° turn. That gives 30° per inch. With 800 dpi you're getting granularity of 0.0375° per mouse report (pixel). With 4000 dpi, it's 0,0075° per mouse pixel. These are the smallest angles that you can rotate. 4000 gives you better precision, but does it matter at all? Let's apply some math:
    arctan(n) ~= n for small values of n if the angle is in radians

    Let's calculate the **** out of it:
    360°/800ppi/12" = 0.0375°/pixel ~= 0,000654rad/pixel
    So, assuming you play a shooter with perfect angle and mouse movement calculations, aiming from 1000 meters, each pixel will move the target point by 0.65 meter. For 4000dpi it would be 13cm for each pixel. Effectively it would be the minimal angular distance by which you can move your crosshair assuming this mouse dpi and 12" for full circle.

    If you want some rough formula for minimum target movement in meters assuming aiming from 1km it's roughly:
    6283 / (Mouse DPI * mouse distance for full circle in inches)

    For people from not-US:
    15960 / (Mouse DPI * mouse distance for full circle in centimeters)
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2013

  16. EJocys

    EJocys Guest

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    Incorrect. 0.25 is "in-game" sensitivity, not "windows pointer sensitivity" (which must be set to 5/10 = 1.00). If mouse it set to 3200 DPI and you move your mouse slowly then game will get all 34560 reports when you swipe your mouse by 10.8 inches.

    It looks like a myth to people who newer played game where you have to make head-shots when enemy head is 1 pixel size. Yes, high DPI doesn't matter in close quarters, especially if you are wielding a shotgun.

    Most of them don't know how to take advantage of high DPI. A lot of them screw all benefits by lowering windows pointer sensitivity or by not using raw mouse input in games.

    It is not simple as that. Mouse DPI increase accuracy, but it can be caped by:

    1) Mouse polling rate (low pooling rate and fast movement results in large count values reported by the mouse)
    2) Monitor refresh rate (even on 120Hz monitor, fast turn looks like a slide show - precise reports from the mouse doesn't matter)
    3) Low windows pointer sensitivity (scales down raw mouse input)
    4) Bad game code which handles mouse input (PlanetSide, Battlefield).

    (1) and (2) have no effect when mouse movements are slow. (3) can be fixed by setting it to 5/10 = 1.00. (4) depends on game developers.

    These are major reasons of diminished accuracy and makes false impression that "DPI does not increase accuracy".
     
  17. MasterBash

    MasterBash Guest

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    0.25 in-game sensitivity is still a scaling, which requires you to have higher DPI for the same sensitivity as 1 in-game. I never mentionned windows pointer sensitivity as I will always use 1:1. You get more reports, yes, but that does not make it more accurate. Look for exemple at Valve games (CS and so on). I have no idea exactly how its coded when it comes to reporting mouse movements. You set your DPI at 800 and 1 in game. You will have the same effect as 3200 and 0.25 in game. Except... with the latter you have a higher margin of error.

    And also I am pretty sure I was one of the best CS player in the world, playing at The CPL and other competitive tournaments back then, so I do know about accuracy.

    Like I said, there are many problems with DPI, such as ripples. So you get huge inaccuracy.

    1. Mouse polling rate, thats true. USB polling will typically have 1ms. Yes, you will get higher reports by the mouse. But here is the problem though, you require your mouse sensor to create a lot of noise and a much higher margin of error when it comes to calculating the end result, you may actually end up a few pixels away from your target.

    2. True. A 120hz monitor will help make what you see as you drag the mouse (not the mouse itself) more accurate though.

    3. Windows mouse slider is another scaling, which increase the margin of error. This is why it should stay default.

    4. Never played any of these games. I do know Valve games are a ratio though. If you use 800dpi with 1 and 3200dpi with 0.25... It will be the exact same but with 3200dpi having more noise.

    Like I said, DPI does not increase accuracy. You simply look at it in term of reports, which is a bad thing to do, because sensors are not designed to run at higher or lower than their native DPI without any issues. It will always create an issue. A mouse does not have a real 3200 native dpi sensors in it, so you WILL have errors, no matter how good your mouse is. It just depends how much higher or lower your DPI will be from the native resolution. Thats the biggest challenge when it comes to making sensors.

    Native DPI will always be best, same with a non-scaling sensitivity (Note: I don't know which games are using different kind of reports, whether its pixel angles or to the closest pixel, which I am guessing BF is the latter). More reports =/ more accurate, especially if its unreliable. Also with the G700 having positive acceleration, you will be even LESS accurate.

    EDIT: I get it from reading your posts, you are thinking precision, not accuracy. You are having more precision at the cost of accuracy. Which is totally not worth it, like I explained, you get something unreliable.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2013
  18. EJocys

    EJocys Guest

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  19. MasterBash

    MasterBash Guest

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    When I was talking about 3200dpi 0.25 vs 800dpi and 1, I was talking about the movement speed, but honestly, you wont notice a difference between 1 pixel and 1/4 of a pixel with fast pacing games, since you don't really have time to count them or notice them.

    I never played a single game where one pixel matters (CS, CoD), but I have played games were accurate mouse movements matter.

    I was using a sniper rifle most of the times. I never had a distance problem at all, targets are quite big across the map. I wouldn't want positive or negative acceleration though (As an example for accuracy, since its very apparent on the G700 and many other laser mouse). I would overshoot or undershoot.

    I stand corrected on the precision, your mouse can get more precise, but my comments are also right when it comes to accuracy. Yes, a pixel can make a difference between missing or hitting the target, but there are a lot more factors than that, such as hitbox size (Which are always bigger than the model), lag/bugs (When CSS first came out, you had to shoot in front of your targets). If one pixel makes a huge difference between missing or hitting, then you are obviously close to missing. Models are big enough even at a distance to hit them (Again, I am talking about CoD/CS, you can clearly see the target even very far away).

    But I value accuracy so much higher. You probably dont notice any weirdness in the aiming, maybe its very minimal, but if that one time you would get some ripple while aiming, that wouldnt be a good thing. That one pixel could turn out to be something different. Maybe its the same as your G700 with positive acceleration, you may not notice it but it is there.

    Personally, I want to use 800 dpi (Native on G400, instead of using my 400dpi), cause I don't want to face issues with pixel walking... I am now playing League of Legends, it wont make a big difference whatsoever, but I am not sure how that game is coded for mouse movements, I don't know if changing mouse sensitivity in-game will result in less accuracy.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2013

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