AMD Mantle API (Low level hardware access)

Discussion in 'Videocards - AMD Radeon Drivers Section' started by shadow_craft, Sep 26, 2013.

  1. The Mac

    The Mac Guest

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    this may be true, but it is not cross gpu at this point.

    what unwinder is trying to say is it would require other gpu makers to fundamentally change their architecture in order to facilitate adoption.

    There is almost a zero chance of this.

    Given nvidia or intel will be resistant to change their architecture, the game developers will have to code 2 render paths with a massive increase in development costs, or lose an entire market segment by coding only for mantle.

    not going to happen sinsce all sgments already use compatabe apis: OGL and dx
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2013
  2. Redemption80

    Redemption80 Guest

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    Unwinder isn't some silly little fanboy so you have to look at where this will lead to If he is right.

    If this is very AMD hardware dependant then it it might provide little benefit to Nvidia users.
    This would be the equivalent of Nvidia porting PhysX to OpenCL but only optimising it for Cuda.

    The worry is that Nvidia could counter this with making their own version and it completely splits the PC market.

    As for SteamOS support?
    That would be hilarious, SteamOS becomes popular, but only when using EA's Origin, and who says EA would even support SteamOS?
     
  3. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Guest

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    Yes, you are correct, they will not drop DX, it would be suicidal. But instead they will get some of benefits of having alternative from which they can draw much more power for effects, particles, shadows, ...

    If this is used on console then it may have same performance as PC with Titan. Then Games will simply have same graphics on PC and Consoles.

    I don't think deployment is or was ever simple task, it takes months. Some games which are in development will not support it ever, some get release and add support later. And some will delay launch to get this working.

    I see it realistically that we get some titles at next xmas. But till yesterday not many knew that Frostbite is cooking something with AMD.
    How many others are doing same behind curtains?

    I am not afraid that Mantle will fail it's much more likely that TruAudio will. Because it will work next year just on 3 GPUs and while it's nice feature which I'll love to use, it will not be selling point like: "Look, we have this running so good at 4k screen." or "We have implemented life like scatter lightning, translucency on skin and refraction to point that bubbling water is like real."
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2013
  4. shadow_craft

    shadow_craft Guest

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    I dunno you guys... PS4 and Xbox One will take up a large share of the Gaming market

    That gives Mantle a big edge IMO
     

  5. Redemption80

    Redemption80 Guest

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    It only gives Mantle an edge if AMD is the only PC GPU vendor.

    It might tempt some to switch as I'm one of them, but what happens if game sales go down due to hardcore Nvidia users boycotting or pirating those games.
     
  6. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Guest

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    Even if nV does not comply, games will have this feature as addition to DX11.
    Therefore nVidia users will have fully working game.

    Imagine this "Mantle": Guy with 7790 plays his favorite game at average 40 fps. Developer deploys update which adds Mantle support and guy gets 60fps average from that point at same HW with same graphics details.

    Compared to that PhysX: Guy plays on GTX 660 game at high settings with average 40fps. Developer adds in update PhysX support. Now User have choice to make: "Will I enable PhysX and Decrease overall details? Will I buy 2nd card to have this working?"

    Worst case scenario calls both technologies proprietary, but even then end user results are: AMD "Customer gets more than he paid for = Satisfaction"; nVidia "Customer is advised to buy additional nVidia hardware = Sales".
     
  7. Benik3

    Benik3 Master Guru

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    Yeah, nVidia and their fu*** PhysX.
    I recommend to made Mantle closed only for AMD, so all nVidia users could kiss AMD as* :D

    BTW API for consoles is simplifier, because it still the same peace of HW, I think that on PC it will take more time to get same
     
  8. Redemption80

    Redemption80 Guest

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    True, but PhysX doesn't add that much, so far AMD users haven't been missing a huge amount, but if Nvidia performance is far inferior it will seriously affect the amount of copies a game will sell.

    It is also a worry for AMD as it's very risky, if they neglect DX due to this and Nvidia gains a large lead then AMD will go the way of Glide.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2013
  9. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Guest

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    As of now You get about same performance per $ on both sides (excluding Titan).
    Game which will have Mantle in addition will likely be still designed to run on DX in good way. It will just be more friendly to 4k/eyefinity/extremely-extreme details.
    This additional HW potential will take some time to be fully unleashed on API level and even more time for game developers to come with meaningful use.
    (In that time AMD has to keep strong at ball and keep support for current platform & they know it.)

    If I was game developer and I got onto platform which has ability to push 9 times more objects or effects or anything I would at 1st had trouble to come with new stuff because original game was developed with stuff already wanted.
    And I would likely start redesigning things I have to be better. Like Lightning, Shadows, reflections, refractions, subtextures, decal density... Maybe to give IQ closer to raytracing.
    Then I would go for additional elements like dynamic destructible structures with persistent particles.
     
  10. Pill Monster

    Pill Monster Banned

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    Never mind - EAX is prob a bad example. :nerd:
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2013

  11. Redemption80

    Redemption80 Guest

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    I hope your right Fox2232, it's just the same problem I have with OpenGL in that I find it unlikely many devs will spend money developing for both.

    Will EA do this for all Frostbite games, or just the biggest selling ones?

    I don't have a problem with them as devs or publishers but I find it strange that so many are suggesting EA are the future of PC gaming.
     
  12. -Tj-

    -Tj- Ancient Guru

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    Let me throw in some numbers so people will have a bigger picture why this is every developers dream come true.


    Dx11 is capable of drawing ~ 17000 primitives calls on screen @ 16ms

    OpenGL 4.3+ ~ 25000 calls

    Console from min 30000 up to 100000 or even more.

    Mantle assuming they meant 9x faster then Dx11 would be ~ 150000 calls @ 16ms.


    Now compare a world with 17k calls vs a world with 100k calls (more objects, AI, detail, fx, cloth, hair,..) at same 60fps, I mean what's not to like here :D

    imo its the thing we've been waiting for, all we need is more engines to support it and it will be a win for all.
     
  13. Redemption80

    Redemption80 Guest

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    That is best case scenario, and most of us know that never happens.

    Since DX is still going to be used no developer will be adding anything they makes the DX version unplayable, so what this means is that mid range AMD cards might be competing with high end Nvidia.

    Good if it brings in more consumers though, but unless it's everyone it won't push anything forward.
     
  14. xodius80

    xodius80 Master Guru

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    ok let me simplify

    Q.- companies need more $ to invest developement into an api that has low share market, is that viable?
    A.- No.

    Q.- Does any other benefit matter to developers, other than money.
    A.- No.

    Q.- OpenGL has been an open source Api, with linux being free too, have that affected microsoft dominance in the market to make another os viable to gaming?
    A.- No.

    Q.- Is Mantle a dream wich everyone wants?
    A.- Yes, but it wont come true. Because of reasons above.


    ask yourself this, If you where a developer, and on a budget, and allready know the standard wich atm is direct x, would you invest TIME and MONEY to venture yourself to a market of ONLY amd video card users that meet the requirement to this api?

    No, if you are smart, you would not.

    EA and Dice has the time, money, and infrastructure to do this. But doest not mean to go main******.

    Think for a moment, please leave your dreams and preference of What present computing is, and what it is, is a businness, some with passion, some not, but it is what it is.
     
  15. xodius80

    xodius80 Master Guru

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    i remember 3dfx glide api, wich my 2 voodo 2 in sli made quake 2 run like butter, to this date i havent found a performance so satisfying than what my voodoo2 did,

    but glide developement stopped over microsofts directx having a 32bit color, over 3dfx 16bit.

    at the end everyone knew performance was great on the glide but consumer only saw 32bit > 16bit beacuse greater numbers = better to the blind consumer eye. and thats why 3dfx was sold and bought to nvidia.

    Being nvidia a starting company, they just knew one thing, stick to the masses. and so they prevailed. They knew making an api would be competing to micorsoft's share of market, so they just made their hardware more efficient to the dominant api, and now they stand strong in the market with no competition in the high end.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2013

  16. The Postman

    The Postman Ancient Guru

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    If I am going to develop for next gen consoles too, mantle looks very nice.
     
  17. xodius80

    xodius80 Master Guru

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    so your telling me you would invest and hire( if there is any ), people that know this api, that would charge you less than what a allready proven and tried standard does?

    it looks like your company has unlimited supply of money to do so, i hope everyones pocket is the same are your company.

    in another note, what makes you think microsoft and sony would pass a driver to its console, maybe sony, but microsoft? you think they would just say yes heres my permision to be my competition on my on turf.

    REALLY?

    its like telling someone to come into your house and tell him to take everything, go ahead bud take my wife leave the kids and keep the dog, ps: send me your adddress so i can pay you for doing so.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2013
  18. temo

    temo Member

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    Exactly, it's a no brainer for multiplatform games but a little less likely for PC exclusives (which are pretty rare these days). GCN based systems are going to account for the vast majority of the overall home gaming market (both next gen systems and all 7000 series GPUs and newer), not to mention AMD APU products.

    Even with only Frostbite on board you've locked in 1/4 of the AAA titles coming in the next 2-3 years.

    People who think this is only for AMD desktop GPUs don't really understand how disruptive this api could be. Right now it's all a lot of speculation but we'll see what happens once benchmarks come out and Santa Clara has their response.
     
  19. xodius80

    xodius80 Master Guru

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    wow, i guess it just hard to inject some sense into a younger audiance, but ok lets see the numbers wen these cards come out to us like the messiah and revolutionize the industry..

    sigh.
     
  20. Redemption80

    Redemption80 Guest

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    The next gen console argument is a good one as all developers want to make PC development easier and this certainly makes it easier.
    Unfortunately developing for Mantle and DX makes things more difficult.

    The long term issues that many seem to be ignoring is that right now a 1:1 next gen console port is a good thing, not so much in 1-2 years.
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2013

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