High End Audiophile thread

Discussion in 'Soundcards, Speakers HiFI & File formats' started by ROBSCIX, Jan 2, 2013.

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  1. ASLayerAODsk

    ASLayerAODsk Guest

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    sheeit....Im really liking this Jplay....wow....um....Im hearing my high's 'disappearing' unlike Ive ever heard before..and now im wondering if its my hearing..or my tweeters...damn..now I want some diamond tweeter so then I'd know...:O sheeit batman! :O



    edit : $160 CDN!?!?! um...wow....I was thinking more along the $50 kinda range....not sure about this now.....hmm....

    aww hell..I already know im going to buy it...grr. lulz!


    or maybe its the software....never had that happen before...so...its possible..in theory...not sure how that would work..but....

    ..and until I truly understand this software..I recant this statement about definitely purchasing it. I wont delete it, but I will recant it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2013
  2. ROBSCIX

    ROBSCIX Ancient Guru

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    Yeah, it is pretty slick.

    Do you mean the sound is more resolving?
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2013
  3. ASLayerAODsk

    ASLayerAODsk Guest

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    im still trying to figure it out...Id hate to find that its nothing but EQ effects...which is entirely possible..cause Im sure if i played around enough with a few settings, i might even be able to mildly replicate the idea...thats why I prefer vanilla hardware...very few settings...so then I know what Im getting...I dont like hardware with 30000 settings and whatnot, turn on and go, thats how I prefer it. :)

    and it wouldnt be the first time a company has lied to make a sale...so...call me cautious. :) Esp for something that I can never touch, or hold in my hand.

    My first question is, if this was possible all along, why is it just 'appearing' now?

    A few things about the front page of Jplay...

    their links on the right...DirectLink lowest latency? umm...just play with your timer...that should fix it if its not fast enough for you on default and/or your hardware isnt fast enough...go buy faster stuff.

    LPMemory - also addressable in the registry.

    Jplay as a Windows service, are they serious?? oooo! so worthwhile :p *sarcasm*

    Maximum system timer - how many free ones are out there that 'work'? I mean...I have 3...and really...you want to really speed your system up? put your OS on an SSD and nothing else. voila. system timers seemingly become irrelevant at that point.

    64bit support - ok..its 2013....who here CANT utilize 64bit now? im sure its a minority almost? Id hope anyway....

    High resolution...well...im glad they say 'no' to lossy formats..but theres still nothing in this list thats enough to convince me....and the testimonials...well...get me someone in Krell/Classe to testify to it...and then Ill see....cause right now..im still not sold that it isnt just some EQ workings....and for $160...I can spend an hour doing that myself....

    So far....the front page...well....is lackluster for someone seeking real information.....

    also..anything that uses the 'audiophile' term for selling..usually isnt quite what they seem....in my own experience. Kinda like that company that has all highs no lows...*wink wink nudge nudge* :D

    and how does low latency? multicore performance? and no disk activity during playback HELP audio quality? seriously....:p

    and if its 'so good' as they claim...why would they ever need updates? Esp if its based on software? Considering W7 is apparently never getting another SP...foobar2000, well....not sure what they have changed in a while..but anyways....

    who's to say they aren't the 'new' 'all highs, no lows' of software?
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2013
  4. Mufflore

    Mufflore Ancient Guru

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    I'm stuck what it is you want to know, MLP is a lossless way of compressing PCM.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meridian_Lossless_Packing
    Much like FLAC is a lossless way of compressing WAV.
     

  5. RagDoll_Effect

    RagDoll_Effect Ancient Guru

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    Yes, but which has better sound, DVD Audio, or SACD? We could say that they have the same sound quality if they're both the same 24 bit 96khz, however this isn't really an exact science if you know what I mean... Like what you were saying about cda and flac, cos I agree, and even on my player, cd's sound better too.

    regards,
    RagDoll.
     
  6. Mufflore

    Mufflore Ancient Guru

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    It is down to reducing interference to the clock on the DAC.
    Human hearing is so very sensitive and clock timings are analogue so will vary.
    We can hear many clock timing errors.

    Someone decided to write it to improve quality for themselves and then published it.

    This is down to how much data gets sent in one go.
    If you can get away with sending it 1 bit at a time you introduce less interference to the system which causes less noise to be sent to the DACs clock.
    Perhaps this thread isnt for you, it will require you to research before blowing steam unnecessarily.

    This allows JPlay to have access to memory that isnt as fragmented.
    If you dont believe it can make a difference, fair enough, but theres no need to be childish, this is the high end audio thread where the weird and wonderful will be discussed.
    We've been waiting for this for a long time, dont wreck it.

    You've missed the point again.
    It reduces OS latency by allowing tasks to switch faster.

    So what?

    You dont have to buy it.
    If you dont like it, then bow out.
    If you do, please grow up and learn how it helps.

    You're accusing them of not providing you with all the information you need on the front page when there are links to a lot of information and even more if you use Google.
    What would make you happy?

    If you dont appreciate it, dont use it.

    Honestly, you are embarrassing yourself.

    Where did they say that they have achieved a perfect result?

    Read my earlier posts, you will see how it helps.
    It seems you want to understand it by reading a very small amount.
    Maybe technical stuff isnt your thing.

    If it was down to EQing, it would have been ripped apart by now.
    Why dont you read up on it.
    This is a good start
    http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/jplay/1.html
    There are 2 pages, the 'next' link is a bit obscure.
     
  7. Mufflore

    Mufflore Ancient Guru

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    The encoding / transport method is more or less irrelevant (if good isolation from the decoding is used), many of the schemes were introduced for copy protection or to have their own standard that nobody else can use unless they forfeit lots of cash.
    The all get converted to the same standard that can be passed into the DAC.

    What matters more is how to reduce noise within the audio player.
    Encoding schemes can have an effect when they are decoded (as demonstrated by the difference between playing a CD and FLAC or playing a WAV and FLAC), but not because of different data, the data can be the same.
    As long as the noise from decoding the data is kept away from the DACs clock and power supply, all is good, but its harder to do in a PC as they are not designed to reduce this type of noise.
    That doesnt mean that all external players are good, even high def players can sound poor due to excess noise getting to the DACs clock or Power supply.

    No processing (ie no encoding) is best as it will produce less noise.
    (but this can easily be ruined by simple errors or lack of attention elsewhere)
    This is why JPlay decodes the audio and copies it into system ram first for direct sequential access, so there is a bit less interference generated by the system during playback.
     
  8. RagDoll_Effect

    RagDoll_Effect Ancient Guru

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    Cool, thanks for that :) I'm with you on the Cd's sound better, sometimes even my CD's sound better than DVD audio, but I haven't tried SACD's yet. CD's seem louder and clearer on my player, I don't know how or why...

    tanx,
    RagDoll.
     
  9. ASLayerAODsk

    ASLayerAODsk Guest

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    Ok...reading.
     
  10. Tom F

    Tom F Ancient Guru

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    I haven't been following the JPlay discussion, but surely as long as you're not dropping frames during decoding / having an output buffer under run, the DAC doesn't see any difference?

    Haven't tried it, I'll make sure I do when I get home.

    Still not sure about the memory playback feature. Is this just to ensure that the output buffer is always full?
     

  11. Mufflore

    Mufflore Ancient Guru

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    I thought similar, but it seems our hearing is capable of a lot higher resolution regarding timing of data through the DAC.
    It seems PCs are quite hostile to DACs even when galvanically isolated!
    No doubt better noise reduction (and DACs) are why some external players stand out above others, this demonstrates the extremes that will help!
     
  12. Tom F

    Tom F Ancient Guru

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    True - but this stuff manages to work perfectly for our RAM / PCIe interfaces where much more data is transferred much faster (along long tracks next to noisy, power hungry devices in the case of a GPU!) for years on end (servers for example?) - I still don't quite get why this stuff works perfectly (and I mean perfectly) for everything else - yet there still appear to be differences?

    Really, what we need to do is get a protocol analyser onto the data bus to the DAC chip. Then, we can see if it's getting the same data from JPlay and foobar.

    I have a TotalPhase Beagle at work - I wonder if that decodes I2S? ;)

    A PC is undoubtedly a hostile environment - but that's all hardware. The software has no idea about what's going on in the outside world - if just processes the data somehow.
     
  13. Rebel975

    Rebel975 Guest

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    My modest setup.

    [​IMG]


    Eton S7's and a homemade TC Sounds Epic 12" sub. NU3000DSP for the sub and an Emotiva UPA-500 for the speakers. An Emotiva UMC-1 rounds out the kit.

    The monitor in the picture is a HP Z2740w. Sorry about it being slightly crooked. :cool:


    I currently have a 4.0 (expanded stereo) in the living room. It's (4x) Dayton RS621's powered by a piece of crap (relatively speaking) Pioneer VSX-921-K. Well, anything is crap after using a nice pre/pro. As for the speakers, I really want to add a center and at least have a proper surround sound.

    I'll still need to add a subwoofer to the living room, but I'm a little indecisive. I'm leaning towards migrating my epic 12" to the livingroom and putting a 15" in my game room. It's not that I need the additional bass or anything, but 1) I want it, and 2) my game room needs to have better stuff than the living room. :nerd:
     
  14. Tom F

    Tom F Ancient Guru

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    Hmm. That 6moons review is predictably 'audiophile'.

    Come on folks, get those routers turned off! It's a wonder the veil is ever really lifted at all.
     
  15. Mufflore

    Mufflore Ancient Guru

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    From what I have read so far, its only down to the EM interference and/or signal/voltage rail noise propagating through to the DACs clock or its power rails.
    This affects how soon/late the clock pulse starts, how delayed/advanced it is reaching its trigger voltage (compared to previous/future clocks) and how much the trigger voltage level is modulated as well !

    It appears that even how the data is transferred to the DAC during playback (ie bit by bit or multi bit) can have an effect if your kit has been fine tuned enough already.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2013

  16. Tom F

    Tom F Ancient Guru

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    Thing is though, the DAC doesn't have any memory, buffering or anything like that - that's why it happens on the PC. The DAC only knows if there's data there - it doesn't care how (or even when). As long as it's there when the clock comes up...you're all good :D

    Jitter is of course a concern, but this is again a function of the hardware, not the software. A properly designed clock on the DAC with properly separated analog and digital power supplies should have no trouble from the EMC from the PC / neighbouring devices. You're in serious trouble if noise from your USB is affecting your supplies - no media player will get you out of that hole!
     
  17. Mufflore

    Mufflore Ancient Guru

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    The DAC or its supporting circuits do have a memory buffer otherwise they would only ever be able to accept bitstream and there would be no multibit DACs.

    The hardware isnt static in its operation, it is constantly varying, how it operates is of concern as it affects EM noise and signal/voltage rail noise.
    Software (and some hardware control) determines this in a programmable environment.
     
  18. Mufflore

    Mufflore Ancient Guru

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    I've spent the last hour testing to see if a slightly more stable power supply helps on just the hard drive.
    By simply plugging capacitors on/off the hard drives power rails and comparing the difference!
    (PSU is an old Hiper 630W)

    Please dont do this yourself unless you are extremely careful.
    This is on my spare PC, I recommend you do any testing like this on an old machine.

    I found some old 16V electrolytics, 2200uF and 470uF.
    2200uF on the 5V and 470uF on the 12V.
    The power lead to the hard drive has 2 SATA power connectors on it, the drive is plugged onto the second one on the end.
    The first power connector is how I connected the caps by inserting the leads into the back of the connector, alongside where the power lines enter, so the leads touch the power connectors firmly.

    On first power up, the PC tried to finish POST and then rebooted.
    This time it worked fine booting straight into Windows, it was the caps charging up that upset it a bit first time.
    From then on, the caps were charged at least partially, I took care not to short the leads or accidentally touch them against anything else.
    Unplugging them and plugging them in again didnt cause any upset to the PC.
    They are a bit of a pig to insert into the back of the connector (especially safely) so used a bright torch pointing at the connector to make it easier to see.

    My test piece is the start of Dire Straits - Sultans of Swing FLAC, ripped from CD.
    The net effect is the sound is slightly crisper and clearer on treble.
    You can hear the percussion of the guitar strings being struck a little clearer.
    As well as hearing the plucks a little clearer, it sounded a tiny bit more open as well.

    I didnt believe I would be able to tell the difference, but there you are.
    Its quite a small difference, but the effect is very nice such that I couldnt wait to plug the caps back in to get it back, it adds a bit of delight :)
    I just pity my poor PSU lol.


    Things worth knowing:
    I'm using a very good Sabre32 DAC (EE Minimax Plus) with a very revealing amp (Emotiva XPA-2), the speakers have ribbon tweeters and are slightly too bright because the amp is connected with silver interconnects soldered directly inside the amp.
    This may be why I can hear such a small change.
    But these things are sure to add up, this was a test to see just how much effect can be gained and if its worth pursuing.
    It is.

    But I dont know what will happen to my PSU if I put extra capacitors all over it.
    I dont mind killing this one as I intend on buying a very low ripple model anyway.
    I plan to use some better caps and use tantalum beads in parallel for higher freq noise removal.
    I'll put a scope on the rails to see just how much these help, gotta buy some leads for it first though.

    This saves using an addon regulator board, but undoubtedly wont be as good, but does it need to be?
    Its damn cheap and pretty easy!



    If anyone is after a really really stable supply, I found this:
    http://www.teddypardo.com/DIY/SuperTeddyReg.html
    3V to 35V, 2A.
    According to this page http://www.teddypardo.com/products/power supplies/PSU-Detailed.html
    It has ripple rejection of 120dB to over 1MHz !!

    This can power an SSD, hard drive, DAC or low power PC, but only provides one voltage rail per board.


    Edit
    Just played the same track on my main PC and its slightly clearer without any caps plugged in the PSU, doh!
    Most likely the Corsair AX750 PSU makes a large contribution.

    Its really quick and easy to test between 2 PCs if you have an external DAC.
    Leave the focus on JPlay on each machine with the song to play in the paste buffer.
    You dont need to see the screen, just plug in the DAC, hit space (on the right keyboard!) to start playing.
    Plug the DAC in the same port used previously to avoid issues.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2013
  19. Mufflore

    Mufflore Ancient Guru

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    This thread on the JPlay forum is gold.
    http://jplay.eu/forum/computer-audio/specification-for-a-high-end-dedicated-audio-pc/
    Its full of experiments with hardware and software to see what makes for the best PC.
    Some of the hardware tried is mad expensive, others are run of the mill things you can buy from a store.

    It took me a while to realise that the main contributor is one of the writers of JPlay.
    Hes very well versed, as are some of the other contributors.
    Its wise to read it through to the end and make notes, there is so much useful information.

    Much of the information I have posted has come from this thread, so props go to Marcin, JPlay dev.
     
  20. Mufflore

    Mufflore Ancient Guru

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    Cool :)
    Sorry I bit your head off, I'd been reading so much and was v tired.
    Have you had chance to experiment?
     
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