Did EVGA just Steal the Rivatuner RTSS design concept into PrecisionX 15 ?

Discussion in 'Frontpage news' started by Hilbert Hagedoorn, Jul 16, 2014.

  1. Andrés

    Andrés Guest

    Unwinder, I'm with you on this one and I'd also like to see some legal ass kicking on EVGA for doing this. You deserve to be compensated for your efforts.
     
  2. Cain

    Cain Member

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    Well I guess it's time I finally post after 7 years.

    I am RagingCain. Guru3D is the first forum I actually joined years ago to learn about overclocking.

    Unwinder, I have been using RivaTuner as long as I can remember, in one form or another. I thank you for your service to the community. I would not have had a single overclocking accomplishment without your software.

    I would like to clarify my post that you got a chance to read, while doing my original side by side analysis through a decompilation. Which as you know is what 80% undecipherable (on a good day)?

    I do not have any experience in reverse engineering any application. In fact, I really don't know much about anything. ^.^ I just applied my other skills and logic to see if I could to validate your claims. The young ones on OCN were getting a little riley.

    The decompilation strings, or your string tables, is what I used to compare the two pieces of software. Not a binary viewer, so that definitely explains why we didn't see the same things.

    I started in the header and footer file of the binaries, which is the standard IDE injection of data such as things like configuration files, assembly information, library inclusions. That's what I referred to when I meant the standard Visual Studio stuff was both there, in an attempt to look for your claims (the ones you had made prior to evidence.)

    I apologize for not finding the RTSS dll reference, the Unicode search feature of the application was not working correctly and the gaps between the string letters (since it's unicode) were not spaces.

    When you explained how I could see what you saw, I went back and retraced your steps.
    I am willing to admit when I am wrong. I do apologize if you felt offended by my lack of skill.

    However, I would like to point out though, these programs are in fact vastly different despite having these string references. I also want to point out that your DLL is not included with the PrecisionX 15 binaries, so despite being in the code, these functions have to be inert. Even according to you, EVGA and MSI have never had your source code.

    Isn't it just possible they built over their old version Precision, replacing the code that was meant to interface with your software?

    You are absolutely in the right to call them out, for having code that is obviously in both programs (whether it is in use or not). You deserve full credit, and let's face it, your work is the entire inspiration of what they are doing.

    I just think that had you shown EVGA these findings first, they would have either issued an apology to you (giving credit), replaced the code, and or corrected their marketing shtick. Then had they not yielded, going public seems like a completely reasonable thing to do.

    And if you feel that strongly about this, i.e. modifying the previous version of Precision to embarrass EVGA, just use legal representation via proxy. There are lawyers that specialize in this kind of stuff (often foregoing payment till after settlement.)
     
  3. GhostXL

    GhostXL Guest

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    I was going to say something similar, it seems to me that they just built over Precision X.

    I think it's a bit out of control myself. EVGA makes great cards, kinda dumb that people boycott over a dumb issue like this, and I'm a die-hard Afterburner user.

    No fanboyism here. This is something that should be left between Unwinder and EVGA.

    We honestly should have nothing to do with their internal affairs. So IMHO it's a bit immature that the community is trying to handle the issue themselves, and calling out "boycotts". Hardware is hardware, software is software, and I don't think EVGA did this to purposely step all over Unwinder.


    Also before people start spouting out that I'm a friggen fanboy. LOOK AT MY SPECS!!! TY!!!!

    I don't even use ASUS TWEAK whatever it is!!! I use AB!!!
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2014
  4. GeniusPr0

    GeniusPr0 Maha Guru

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    There's nothing wrong with a little help, and I'm sure he appreciates it given him current conditions.
     

  5. Fox2232

    Fox2232 Guest

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    @Cain/RagingCain:
    Mate, it takes some time to reverse engineer something, but with binary it is not that hard if you have right tools. (And 3 months for reversing and 3 months for making modification is plenty.)
    You take decompiled code, start thinking about variables and name them in meaningful way as good as you can guess based on operations which are done over them.
    As you progress you get general understanding what code block does what and then it becomes faster and faster.

    Basically you make your own source code with your own notes and variables named by you.
    But resources like string tables, library references/import/exports stay same till you change them.
    (those references are what makes reversing much easier)

    Then you can change stuff around.
    But thing is, this "new version from ground up" should not contain any reference to Unwinder's work because it was not based on his decompiled binaries.

    So, someone please give me valid reason for having those pieces there if new core is actually made as clean project?
    For me eVGA guys did poor cleaning job.
     
  6. GhostXL

    GhostXL Guest

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    It's not really doing anything to help. Just heating a dim lit fire that could explode for no good reason.

    Unwinder knows about it, and will handle it his own way, he's a big boy.
    You all act like EVGA wants Unwinder dead.

    They didn't do this to attack Unwinder, they just wanted to progress Precision X to the next step.

    Now, if they did just outright steal protected/copywrited code, then they should pay a royalty and let it go.

    People need to take a chill pill.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2014
  7. Unwinder

    Unwinder Ancient Guru Staff Member

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    Hi RagingCain,

    No need to apologize at all, I appreciate your investigations and attempts to verify claims from independent point of view. In your second verification you try to compare internals of new PrecisionX.exe with RTSS.exe. You won't find many similarities there because you're comparing overclocking application executable with overlay server executable (basically just a GUI for hook loader). They are supposed to be different. What I referenced to in my claims was original Precision executable file. If you try to compare new PrecisionX.exe with EVGAPrecisionX.exe from previous 4.2.1 version (which is also my copyrighted material), you'll find much more similarities inside. Sadly, localization engine (Help/Localization folder contents, ID maps etc) and string table are close to be 100% equal. Besides that there are many similarities specific to internal application architecture and programming (skin compiler source code format, skin compiler command line switches, even the names of shared memory interfaces and synchronization objects), which let me declare with no doubts that original Precision X 4 application was reverse engineered and EVGA studied and tried to copy its internal architecture and silently taken some binary parts from it "as is". According to some traces most likely it was done in Taiwan EVGA office, and I'd really like to believe that people from American EVGA office I was previously working with were not aware about new project "development" approach. And of course it was not just a trivial recompilation of previously existing source code, as I declared I never provided it to company. Otherwise new PX 15 would just work without problems and without being so slow. :) So new project is created with reverse engineering and code reconstruction.
    Talking about showing EVGA these findings first, I see zero sense in it. Even if this situation will be solved one day, I see absolutely zero chances to continue partnership with the company in any form after this story. I don't need any compensations, I just need to protect my ideas, hard work and name. I know that my work is stolen, the person from the company responsible for that perfectly knows that too, now the community knows it as well. That's enough.
    And by the way, I was not going to make any public statements about dirty tricks the company used in PX 15 development. I was going to make EVGA complete surprise and give small panic to new PX 15 "developers" with Afterburner 4.0.0 announce. ;) Anyway, you cannot hide the truth, the story became public from different side.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2014
  8. cowie

    cowie Ancient Guru

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    @cain at least you came to the source and man'ed up but should have asked first. you know people on both sides of the issue will use anything as fuel for the fire.

    Alex really are you going to miss evga? good riddance to the barking bitches that came with them.
    You know i have seen you pissed at us from the r/t days and you were 100% unpaid on that but everyone demaned all sorts of things.
    Hey btw how come i cant unlock the extra shaders on my 6800nu pci-e .....oh f sorry if that brings nightmares of rt days lol.
    alex let me tell you now karmas is on your side i just seen it....just wait for it.
     
  9. GPU

    GPU Guest

    Important announcement:
    Quote:
    We understand that there is a lot of confusion and misinformation in the internet community about Guru3D’s article titled “Did EVGA just Steal the Rivatuner RTSS design concept into PrecisionX 15 ?”. We would like to clarify the following:

    1. Precision’s original main GUI concept was designed and provided to the community by EVGA in 2008.
    2. The RivaTuner control panel and backend code in prior versions of Precision were developed and is owned by the RivaTuner developer. EVGA does not own the source code for any RivaTuner code. EVGA paid for the development and distribution rights per the contract.
    3. The new EVGA PrecisionX 15 was coded from scratch by EVGA without copying any of the RivaTuner code.
    4. Both RivaTuner and EVGA PrecisionX 15 make use of the NVIDIA NVAPI to communicate with NVIDIA graphics cards and drivers, which is owned and provided by NVIDIA.

    Some people mentioned that the file structure in EVGA PrecisionX 15 is similar to the previous version of Precision. During development, we referenced the USF skin format (which has been published by RivaTuner developer at Guru3D forums in 2009 http://forums.guru3d.com/showpost.php?p=3316361&postcount=8 to allow the community to create their own skins). The above mentioned feature would make it simple to allow users to recompile any previous skins to work with the new version of PrecisionX 15. However, we do understand the confusion caused by trying to maintain this feature and we will change it in the next release.

    Next, it was also mentioned that the code contains text references (not code) to the word “RivaTuner” and the word “RTTSH.dll”, a RivaTuner file. This actually came from the user interface localization / help (wording). During the original Precision development, EVGA worked with several outside firms to help translate user interface help files into various languages, unfortunately this is a misprint in the translation files and will be fixed. Again, no RivaTuner code was ever used in EVGA PrecisionX 15. We apologize to the RivaTuner developer for this error.

    Originally our goal was to add more features such as 64bit OSD, Steam, updated voltage controls, and more to a new version without changing the Precision user’s experience that they were already familiar with. Unfortunately, the “similarities” between the two programs have led people to believe that EVGA might have copied the code and design from RivaTuner, which is not the case. Given the circumstances, in order to remove any questions and to further differentiate it visually from the previous versions of EVGA Precision, EVGA has decided to listen to the community and suspend the downloading of EVGA PrecisionX 15 temporarily while these updates are being implemented.

    Please remember, Precision was and is built for the community and without the community EVGA Precision and many other overclocking utilities would not be where they are today. It is EVGA’s commitment to continue investing in the development of PrecisionX by adding the features the community asks for while providing it free of charge!

    Thank You,
    EVGA

    so it's pulled to be cleaned up.
    http://www.overclock.net/t/1502290/guru3d-did-evga-just-steal-the-rivatuner-rtss-design-concept/410
     
  10. EVGA

    EVGA Guest

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  11. Hilbert Hagedoorn

    Hilbert Hagedoorn Don Vito Corleone Staff Member

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  12. SLI-756

    SLI-756 Guest

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    they care so much about the community they steal from it?
    I just hope it's at least as good when it returns.
     
  13. MonarchX

    MonarchX Banned

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    I bet that many of people knew about this theft, but corporate management these days comes up with ideas with which nobody can ever disagree even if they were told that they can, because it may cost employees their jobs to even hint an opposing view. Seeing how off-shore work was involved to save money, there is no surprise it ended-up backfiring. "Skupoj/Zhadnij platit dvazhdi!" (RU) - "A cheapskate pays twice!"

    The permanent damage to EVGA is done though. If EVGA actually knew its community of its software users, like it falsely claims it does, then they would never take the path and fall as low as they have fallen. I believe people who use programs such as MSI AfterBurner and Precision X are generally not the types who would fall for marketing BS and vague statements such as "All the coding from ground-up" and similar statements that completely ignored all the opposing facts.

    There is only one way for EVGA to show that it still has some sense and dignity - apologize and do it sincerely, all the way, and for each and every false statement. That is not what is going to happen though because in corporate America you need to come out with a smile and defend the one and only policy of "deny everything". Such attitude will further punish EVGA as they will try to compensate for this problem by cutting costs somewhere else, like hardware or hardware-cooling or laying off employees. I wouldn't be surprised if EVGA released a stolen videocard cooling concept when the next round of videocards come out.

    I mean what were they thinking? This blatant theft left a nasty impact that will haunt them for years to come, having reviewers look closer into their hardware and software to try to spot if anything has bee copied, patented by someone else, or plain stolen in any EVGA hardware and software product. Reviews will constantly include something along the lines of "As you know, EVGA has plagiarized software in the past..."
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2014
  14. Veteran

    Veteran Ancient Guru

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    I remember you on Overclock.net when you built your Caselabs M8 from around 2 years ago, are you the same person?
     
  15. zimzoid

    zimzoid Guest

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    I uninstalled it yesterday and went back to last version, was noticing lower scores in benchmarks with it enabled this does not happen with the older version, for example 3dmark11 20323 enabled score, 20545 with it turned off...anyone else seeing this behaviour?
     

  16. Mumak

    Mumak Member Guru

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    So they are pulling it in order to remove direct indices of copy-paste work and probably will make it visually slightly different.

    But as far as I understood the situation (though I haven't performed a detailed analysis) is that there's been much more reverse-engineering involved. This eventually allowed EVGA to understand and implement certain features like the unique RTSS OSD (DX hooks, etc). This is more difficult to prove, but AFAIK there's no other such OSD in the world, so it would be a huge miracle, that EVGA did this from scratch without disassembling the RTSS.
     
  17. Fender178

    Fender178 Ancient Guru

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    Finally Evga is doing the right thing by retracting Precision X 15. I bet they could not take the pressure anymore and caught up in a huge lie that they couldn't get out of or ignore. They ran out of excuses. Congrats guys we did good. Justice has been prevailed.
     
  18. Cain

    Cain Member

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    Yes I am, I ended up setting a world record for 2x HD 7970s last summer, having switched out the 590s, CPU, and mobo.

    Eventually overtaken by LN2 naturally.

    Could not have made it happen without Unwinder's work.
     
  19. MrBonk

    MrBonk Guest

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    This is a great shame on EVGA's part. I used to be a die hard fan of their products and bought their GPUs near exclusively (But used MSI Afterburner).

    Now I will never buy an EVGA product again and I will warn against anyone I know from doing so.

    I hope and wish there is some other way we can support you Unwinder. Your work is amazing and I personally have gotten much benefit from using it over the years.
     
  20. oneirish

    oneirish Guest

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    Drama manufatured

    Incredible to believe anyone is posting "well! I'll never buy from EVGA now! blah blah" Right - and you never did or could.

    If this is worthy of entire forums (but what isn't forum worthy?) and articles why haven't those allegedly wronged simply called an attorney? Instead it become fodder for forum junkies and the bone-idle, perpetually miserable and self-entitled to mass moan about.

    I am happy that EVGA even bothers to give us the software to do this AND happily supports any questions 24/7 from anyone who cares enough about their investment to dial a number. I hope this kind of manufactured garbage doesn't end that.

    We rely on EVGA cards for work and have had extensive dealings with them - they have always been 100% truthful, accurate and despite some obvious opportunities to oversell us, never once have. They have always gone to lengths to be sure we know the right cards to buy and exactly why and we have yet to be anything but blown away with performance and support. They easily rate in the same league as Amazon and Apple in service after the sale and actually higher since they truly know their products and anyone you talk to can handle complex graphical questions or engineering discussions.

    To say or claim you would ditch EVGA over this defies basic common sense unless you are determined to spend too much for inferior graphics rubbish.

    We respect and support software developers and are against copying, piracy but something here just isn't adding up. I believe EVGA and will happily continue to unless they give us a clear reason not to.
     

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